I'm just curious. Is anyone towing a 16' Scamp (or equivalent) with a Subaru Outback? Just dealing with factory numbers, Scamp shows 1750# for the 16' model, and Subaru shows a 3,000# towing capacity for the 3.0L version. I am well aware of actual weight growth, truth in advertizing, etc. I would like to know if anyone has any direct personal experience with this setup that they can share.

We're presently towing a 13' Scamp with our Outback quite easily. Thinking of possibilities for the future without moving up to a heavier tow vehicle.

Parker

Hi Parker,
When we bought our 1995 Scamp I towed it the 15 miles home with Norma's 2005 Outback 2.5i - 2700 pound tow rating.
Our Scamp is a 16' side bath with no shower, water heater or air conditioner. I weighed it on the way home ~1900 pounds on the highway scale along our route with nothing in the cabinets and empty fresh tank - maybe 1/4 tank of propane.
The Subie actually did a good job of hauling the empty Scamp, but we decided to look for a heavier tow vehicle.

Couple of reasons.
Our Trailblazer has the extra weight and power so we don't have to worry about every ounce we take like we were backpacking. With all the storage, it's just too easy to let the weight creep up - we weighted 2400 pounds our last trip.
I still drive a '98 Outback with over 300,000 miles on it. I'd like to get that out of the 2005 and don't think we would if we used it to tow near it maximum rating up and down the West Coast and Cascades.

Hope this helps,

Hi Parker,

I am towing our 13' Trillium with a 2005 2.5i Forester - 2400 pound tow rating. It tow's the Trillium just fine (in fact we just did the Cascades with it last month). However, I feel that the load was just right for the car - anymore and the car would be draggin up the hills. I know that the 16' weight dry might be 1750 but I think you should plan on it being more like 2500lbs loaded for camping and then another 300-500 pounds if you load the tanks

Cheers,

Guys,

Exactly the sort of comments I'm interested in. We pull our 13' Scamp like it isn't even there with our 3.0L Outback, so I was wondering about how we might do with the 16' model. We often talk about moving up to something slightly larger (really, it's mostly about having a shower and flush toilet for places without facilities), but that invariably leads to discussions of a new tow vehicle, burning more gas for day-to-day use, significant outlay of cash, etc. So then we decide we'll stick with what we have. If I thought we could pull the 16' Scamp (my guess is it's slightly lighter than a Casita, but I haven't confirmed) it would be tempting. I don't want to end up with a slug in the hills, though.

Thanks. Hope there are some others out there to comment!

Parker

I have been looking for the Trillium 4500 because it's got larger beds and a larger fridge without being too much heavier then our 1300. I have mixed feelings on having a bathroom. Everytime I have to I get up in the middle of the night for a bathroom visit I wish we had a bathroom. However, I have friends with larger trailer who grumble about dealing with the black water side of things.

I am wondering... I recently bought a 1974 Trillium 1300, put brakes on it, and tow it with my 2004 Forester, which has a great towing reputation. My Forester has done just fine, but unlike some folks who have written that they 'can't even feel it back there', I can, and it can certainly slow down in the hills- all this is to be expected. What I wonder more is how it feels to you on dirt roads or bumpy roads- not 4-wheel drive roads- and what the weakest link is in the whole affair- is it the hitch point? the trailer frame? I hear an occasional thunk when I hit a bump, and wonder what that is, and how bad that is. I guess this is all so relative and hard to quantify, but I haven't towed anything before and it is hard to tell what is 'normal'. Thanks!

Hi Sandy,

I basically have the same rig (1976, 2005) and I have driven dirt roads with it. The clunk is the hitch shifting around - I get it sometimes on quick starts or over speed bumps as well as dirt roads. I find it's worse if I have too much weight in the back of the trailer. You can get accessories to tighten up the hitch point and remove that sound if it bugs too much. The only other thing I notice when towing on dirt roads is they tend to have more 'camber' so getting close to the edge of a road can put quite a lean on the trailer.

Though I don't notice a big change in handling when towing it definitely does not zoom up hills. The Subaru is a pretty gutsy car without the trailer but with the trailer I feel like it has power more like our Ford Focus. We like to sight see on our trips so having a bigger TV just go pull it faster on hills seemed pointless to us.

Hi, thank you Booker. You have quite a web site, by the way. The noise only bothers me because I don't know what is normal and ok, or if any real harm is being done. There is no extra weight in the back; I've been keeping it light until I get more of a feel for towing, and since the so-called dry weight was 1360 or so, and the Trillium is rated to 1500, I've been leery of adding much. I travel light and like to pull over a lot too, so speed is not my thing and what you said about the power sounds right to me. Camber refers to a twist, and is therefore to be avoided? What do you think about the general vibration and stress on the frame or anything else- I live on a one mile dirt road, and you generally don't find the best roads camping either. Thanks again! Sandy

We never fill the water tanks and with food/cooking gear/bedding and clothes for the 4 of us we are between 1800-1900lbs on average. There was a recall on the early 70's Trillium trailers for a potential cracked frame where it sweeps under the front of the trailer - it's pretty obvious where it would be. In that case you would want to get that reinforced. The other thing to check is if the bolts holding the body to the frame are solid (to be honest I have never done this mysef).

We have put on over 8000km with ours since last spring and I haven't worried too much the frame stress, I just take a look every once in a while to make sure there are no cracks appearing. Though frames do break it's generally after a fracture has been there for a while so if you do a quick check before and after each trip you should be ok. These trailers have been solid for 30+ years so I think that says a lot about their durability.

Yes, that is pretty much what I've done too as far as loading- no water, and then I put all I can in the car. I actually have talked to the man who built our trailers in the '70's!!, and has recently started building new Trilliums again here in California (he owns the original forms), and who has been a wonderful and generous resource. I asked him about that recall, and he said mine was not affected, based on the year it was manufactured. I'll take your advice on checking the frame anyway, and the bolts. I'll talk to him again too, but I appreciate hearing about your experience and your advice on all of this.

Hey, that's cool you got to talk to Tom, he's got some great info on the older trailers. The actual bodies for the trailers are being made up here in BC at Chilliwack now by Escape so I expect we will be seeing a lot of the newer Trilliums around.

We have a 2009 American Trillium 1300. On the trillium website, there is a 'slide show' of apparently the Chilliwack Trillium.

http://www.trilliumrv.com/

We counted 31 changes from ours.

(Almost forgot the original theme of this thread.)

We pull it with our 2000 Outback rated at 2000# tow capacity. We weighed the trailer a few weeks ago, with middling things in it (no water in tank) and it showed 1700#. So I would say we couldn't tow anything larger than a 13'.

There are A LOT of threads on this website discussing weight, towing, etc. If you are keeping your tow under your rating for your TV as stated in the owner's manual, you should be fine.

Thanks Roger for posting about the slideshow - I have been waiting for it to be posted.

Since we already off topic .. I prefer the molded fiberglass cabinets of the American Model. Never been a big fan of the Oak cabinets found in most trailers

Sandy,

I'm not sure what your particular clunks are, of course, but one thing to check is the fit of the ball with the coupler. If you have the wrong size ball, or even if you have the right one and it's not adjusted properly* I find that it can make the whole rig seem a bit dicey (and makes a lot of clunks when you go over bumps or initiate/roll-back-from a stop).

*You can adjust the "forks" that grip the bottom of the ball.

Raya

I'm so happy I was able to start a thread that turned out to be so popular regarding hitch noises and other things! The question of a Subaru pulling a 16-footer ran out of gas long ago. I guess I got my answer.....not many doing it.

Parker

Parker I have been doing it for 3 years. Older 16' Scamp with a side bath/shower basic 07 Subaru Outback. Been up and down the US west Coast twice, over the mountains in Washington & BC **many** times. Been in the montains in 107 degree weather and in snow! :-) Stick to the speed limit and all is well. You need to watch your tongue weight though as that is the only issue with the Subaru. Get a good brake controller. I get an average in the mountains about 20 miles to the US gallon. This is my 3rd Outback and I suspect that due to the amount of towing I have done it may be having a harder life than the previous ones so I may consider trading it a bit sooner than the others (kept them on average 6 years). Having said that though I have not had any problems with this one at all.

How about a 13 Scamp with a shower and a flush toilet??
works great for us!

The thing about Subarus is that they vary in tow rating depending on the year and engine. You can't just say 'tow with a Subaru'. You have to know which year, etc. Again, the final say is in the Owner's Manual. It says in there what you have to do to tow, how much you can tow, etc. Our (year) 2000 Subaru is only rated for towing 2000# with the 2.2L engine, so we are limited to a 13' egg.

Carol,

Thanks for your reply. This is encouraging news. We just completed a 5400 mile trip from Ohio to Idaho, Yellowstone, Tetons, and home pulling our 13' Scamp with our 05 LL Bean Outback. We could pretty well pick any speed we wanted to climb the mountains as long as we kept the revs above 3,000. We were pretty heavily loaded for a 13-er, carrying an external air conditioner, Honda generator, clothes for widely varying weather conditions, lots of food, etc. We seem to have gobs of power with the 3.0 liter six cylinder engine (although we don't get your mileage while towing....closer to 16.5), so we're returning to the idea of a 16' Scamp. We would like a little more space to organize our stuff, and would really like the shower as we often stay in national parks. I understand tongue weight may be an issue. Our Subaru is rated for 3,000#, but the tongue weight limit remains at 200#, so we'll have to watch that with a 16' Scamp.


Thanks again,
Parker

Is that ball hitch weight or with a WDH ?

The reason I ask is my hitch is 300lb ball hitch and 500lb WDH

My tongue weight is 325lb and trailer with everything but food and cloth's is 2700lb

2009 16' side dinette with front bath.

Bill K

We've got a (1984)16' with shower/toilet that we have been towinq quite nicely all summer with the 2005 Outback. Up and down the Sierra Nevada and CA coast. We do have a brake controller that helps with control. It tows and handles really well.
Diane D

Bill,

That's the simple hitch weight, straight from the manual. I don't know what the options are with a WDH (and whether or not I can put one on the Subaru). When I talked with Scamp, they said I may want to run with some water in the tank to help lighten the hitch weight, but I didn't expect it to be as high as your numbers. Based on your overall weight, 200# hitch weight might be too light to handle well. I wonder if the front bath setup has a higher hitch weight than some other models. I'll be talking with Scamp again today, and I'll try to find out. Naturally, they want to state the lightest weights possible.

Thanks for the email. I'd like to be hearing lighter numbers, but now's the time to find out!

Parker

Diane,

Do you happen to know the weight of your Scamp and what the hitch weight might be? Is it the side shower model by chance? Your message is really encouraging. It seems that this is doable within the Subaru limits if we are careful with our choice of setup. We do have a brake controller, so we're ready in that regard.

Thanks,
Parker

I tow a 16-foot Scamp with an '04 Forester XS, manual transmission, non-turbo. It works very well, even on Colorado mountain passes. I highly recommend manual transmissions for their ability to hold you back on hills without using the brakes. The Scamp is a very light 16'er, however, with no bathroom or fridge and only a couple of gallons of water onboard. Fully but lightly loaded, the trailer scales around 2,000 lbs. It needs at least 160 lbs tongue weight, and prefers a little more. Tongue weight is the limiting factor with these cars. I know of no easy way to increase the loadbearing capacity of Subaru's MacPherson strut rear suspension. My car's butt squats noticeably when hitched up, and the low beams become higher beams.

IMHO, the good news is that you can tow a 16-foot Scamp with your car. But the other, badder news is that you probably shouldn't carry enough water to use that nice bathroom & shower. That wouldn't keep you from running dry and filling up and dumping promptly at campgrounds, but there's less convenience with that.

John,

That would be our mode of operation. We mostly only need/want the shower for staying in national parks, which we've really come to enjoy. We just spent three weeks in Yellowstone and the Grand Tetons, and an on-board shower and a little more space for our stuff would certainly have been welcome. I'm still pondering all this. There are other issues, like finding full-time storage for a larger trailer, indoors if at all possible. Meanwhile, I'm doing some work on our 13', which easily fits in the garage. And that external container attached to our sink drain and the porta-potty are considerably less complicated than gray and black water systems!

Thanks for your comments.
Parker

I have an 08 Outback with the 2.5 rated at 2700 lbs with brakes. I'm looking at moving up from my pop-up to a fiberglass camper, which I could always pull with my truck, but I find that I prefer using the outback for camping over the truck and for driving around after unhitching. I think a 16 ft camper might be a little more than I want to tow with the Suby since my hitch weight is restricted to 200 lbs, and it seems the 16 ft campers exceed that even at the dry weight. I don't know the Scamp hitch weight, but Casita advertises the hitch weight dry as 215 Standard and 255 Deluxe, before adding options or personal items.
I don't really want to deal with draining tanks and we carry a porta potty so I'm considering buying a 13 ft camper with either a front gaucho or a front dinette, so we could leave the bed made up all the time.
I'm sure your 3.0 would have a smoother power delivery than my 2.5 and be well capable of towing a 16 ft Scamp, but I believe the hitch weight would be higher than what Subaru recommends.

John H

Hi John H

This has been a very good discussion for me because I am looking for a new second car and want to check out the Subaru Forester with the thought that it could also work as a tow vehicle.

Our bare bones Scamp 13 weighs about 1600 lbs lightly loaded and our hitch weight is near 200 lb. We work at keeping it light weight. I really can't figure out how one could keep the weight down in a 16. Our 13 drags down the Odyssey so that night driving would be bad for the guy coming at us (we don't drive night). Van still handles well so we haven't gone to the WDH.

Subaru only uses a 1 1/4 inch receiver, doesn't it? I would think that also be a problem for 16 foot trailers.

We considered going up to a 16 but after some thought and a visit to the Scamp factory decided we really, really like our little 13 without privacy room.

Keep the thread going.

Nancy

We've discussed this before, see if these topics help:

http://www.fiberglassrv.com/board/index.php?showtopic=37879

AND:

http://www.glamisdunes.com/invision/index....showtopic=24262

AND:

http://www.rvtravel.com/rvforum/viewtopic.php?t=6146

Roger,
How do you like that Trillium with your Outback, and what options do you have on it? The Trillium is on my short list since I like the layout with the front dinette. I've pretty much decided on a 13 ft camper so I can continue to tow it with an Outback sized vehicle rather than having to keep a gas guzzler around forever (my truck), and I like the Scamp, Casita, and Trillium for different reasons.
Is the front dinette usable and easy to get in and out of?

John H

I just looked at another thread on trailer weights, and 2 13 ft campers were weighed at a gathering. The Scamp weighed 1620, and the Casita weighed 2640! Looks like Casitas run heavier than Scamps, but I imagine that was probably the deluxe model which is listed as 1880 dry in the Casita brochure.
http://www.fiberglassrv.com/board/index.ph...mp;#entry326582

John H

Hi Nancy,
The 1 1/4 hitches are normally rated as much as 3500 lbs (Class II), but the Subaru limit is less; 2700 lbs on my Outback, and maybe 2400/2500 on the Forester? I'm not sure if you can order a factory installed hitch for the Subaru from the factory, I believe they are dealer installed. I added my own hitch from etrailer.com and also added an auxilliary transmission cooler. You can purchase either a Class II 1 1/4" or a Class III 2" hitch from etrailer.com but either one is still limited to the Subaru recommendations. I believe the tongue weight would be a problem keeping within the recommendations from Subaru with a 16 ft camper, and a previous post showing trailer weights looks like the Casita 13 may even have a hard time remaining within the Subaru 200 lb tongue weight. The Scamp 13 looked like it was within the limits. The 2'' hitch may be more convenient for carrying bike racks though.

John

John,

Two posts ago you mentioned a 1620 lb Scamp. That is ours. It is not easy to keep the weight down, and most people we know with 13 foot trailers 2,000 pounds is more usual. We keep things very basic, use our rig for traveling and mostly sleeping. We are not true campers, nor do we need to take electronic stuff. Our toys are a laptop computer, camera, a deck of cards, and books.

Thanks for the info about the 1 1/4 inch receiver. It does look like a toy when I see one.

Nancy

The Outback pulls the Trillium well. Steep hills on less than expressway grades do call for a lower gear and worse mileage. We have the front dinette and just for the two of us it is great! We purchased a little camp stool for the second person to sit in front of the table.Click to view attachment The kitchen side is difficult to get into. But I do notice that the latest Trilliums (Trilliumrv.com) have the dinette table offset. I may try that, but we use the left dinette seating area for food storage.

I don't see any sense of going to a 2" receiver since Class I is all the Subaru can pull anyway.

http://www.bradstrailer.com/hitch_information.htm

Plus bigger size means more weight.

There is a lot of good information on the internet:

http://autos.aol.com/article/towing-tips

Here is a whole series of articles on towing:

http://trucks.about.com/od/autobuying/a/towing_trucks.htm

I need to clarify my statement on Subaru towing capacity. Our 2000 Outback is rated at 2000# with trailer brakes and 1000# without. Looking on the internet, I found the following:

2007 Subaru
B9 TRIBECA B9 TRIBECA 5-PASSENGER | B9 TRIBECA 7-PASSENGER
• 3,500 lbs. towing capacity (with accessory trailer towing kit)
3.0R L.L.BEAN® EDITION SEDAN and WAGON
• 3,000 lbs. towing capacity
OUTBACK 2.5i BASIC WAGON | 2.5i WAGON | 2.5i LIMITED SEDAN and WAGON
• 2,700 lbs. towing capacity\
FORESTER 2.5 X | SPORTS 2.5X7 | 2.5X L.L.BEAN® EDITION
• 2,400 lbs. towing capacity

Above gleaned from: https://www.subaru.com/content/downloads/pd...s/2007_full.pdf

You can see that it can get confusing. The best thing to do is check your owner's manual.

Here is an issue I never saw addressed:

WARNING: Never tow a trailer when the temporary spare tire is used. The temporary spare tire is not designed to sustain the towing load.

https://www.subaru.com/my-subaru/tired-tires.html

I was curious if the tow limit for the 2010 Outback with CVT would be lower than my 08 auto transmission, but looking at the 2010 owners manual, the 4 cyl with MT or CVT is still rated to tow 2700 lbs with brakes. 1000 without brakes, and for the automatics, "When towing a trailer on a long uphill grade continuously for over 5 miles (8 km) with an outside temperature of 104F (40C) or above, 1350 (1500 for 6 cylinder)".
I have brakes on my pop-up and plan to get them on my 13 ft Scamp/Casita/Trillium (still in the decision making stage) when I order it.
Subaru also recommends a tongue load of 8-11 % and still has the 200 lb limit, even for the 6. Doing the math, it's impossible to reach 2700 or 3000 and keep the tongue weight down to 200 even with just an 8% tongue load, and Subaru mentions that in the manual. So, to keep it down to 200, you can't haul more than 2500 lbs.

John

John, you would do a dis-service to all of us Subaru/Trillium owners if you did not settle on a Trillium