I've been scarce on these forums lately. That's because the Scamp mostly sits in my driveway. I'm beginning to think one of the reasons for that is that it's unheated. I get busy in the summer and shoulder seasons, while my kid's school schedule gives the family long weeks of free time in the cold season.

I was thinking of taking the family on a Thanksgiving trip from Denver to the Utah or Arizona national parks, but a look at the nighttime lows out there was discouraging. Even down at the South Rim, it's below 20 degrees most nights. Come to think of it, it's cold at night everywhere I would go out of Denver, in almost every season, because in summertime we head for the high country.

So I spent a cold night at home in my 16-foot Scamp, testing my few cheap options. Boiling a pot of water on the cooktop didn't nudge my thermometer even one degree. It did make my newly purchased CO detector prick up its electronic ears, showing 50 ppm of carbon monoxide accumulating in about five minutes with all windows closed (frozen shut, actually). Then I tried the Coleman Sport Cat my wife purchased. It managed to slowly raise the interior temp from 32 to 38 degrees, but no more. It was only a 1,100 BTU unit. It's probably hot enough to tip over and start a fire, but not to heat a trailer. The CO detector didn't react to it, showing the merits of the catalytic combustion process.

So it looks like safe, comfortable winter trailer use will demand some investment. I've scanned these posts and found many of you favoring the Olympic Wave 3 cat heater. I wonder if that's strong enough, and if its radiant heat really spreads well throughout the interior. I'm fascinated by the "Pine Cone" experiment with a tiny marine wood stove, but I haven't read how that worked out. And I've just noticed that the Scamp website is offering their 16K BTU Suburban furnace at $365, well below other retail prices. That sounds like the hottest, safest and most convenient option, though I've read complaints about noise and battery drain. Price is an object for me, but I want to get it right this time, and there's no easy way to demo these options before installation.

So if you don't mind the repetition, I'd like some opinions on these choices as I wile the cold night away, dreaming of redrock canyons and long, cold, starry desert nights.

What's your favorite way to heat an egg, and why?

I installed a Suburban DD-17DSI (17,000BTU/H direct spark ignition) in my EggCamper and have been very happy with it.

Last winter during the Christmas season we traveled from Golden CO to the Illinois/Indiana border to visit our daughter. We stayed warm in temperatures down to 3 degrees when we RONed in Kansas and down to 10 degrees in Illinois. We also do a lot of camping in the mountains west of Golden, even in the winter. One of our favorite places is Camp Hale, near Leadville. That place gets cold even in the summer. This year our holiday plan is to go to Arizona to visit our son and his family. Will probably be using the furnace extensively again.

Anyway, I don't think you will successfully heat your Scamp with a cat heater if your goal is to camp in the high country so bite the bullet and install a vented propane furnace. You'll be glad you did.

73
Orlen

John,
We have used our Black Cat heater in our 17 ft Casita with ambient temps in the 30s and it works great. We only need the high setting (3000 BTU) for a short time and then we must turn it down to the 1500 setting because it gets so warm. This model sits at a stable 45-degree angle so we put near the door and point it toward us when we are sitting in the dining room. Using it mostly in the evenings, a propane can lasts about three days. The owners manual says to provide six square inches of ventilation. I am surprised your 1100-BTU cat worked so poorly; it's not much smaller than ours on low.

If you are planning to use the trailer a lot in winter, you can't beat the built-in furnace. But beware it is noisy and a power hog.

Marv

I kept wondering if the Sport Cat was working properly. But it was new, and so was the fuel canister I was using. There is only one style of fuel in that size can, right? I could only see light from combustion on one edge of the pad. I could feel heat about one foot above it, but no further. I'm inexperienced with cat heaters. My last one, and old thrift shop find, didn't seem to work well either. Perhaps I'm missing something with them?

Even if the floor-mounted cat heater was sufficient, I don't think I could really trust it. Our trailer is typically occupied by three of us. Floor and counter space fills up fast, and there's plenty of flammable clothes and bedding all around. I would consider mounting a Wave a foot or two up the side wall, opposite the door where my bathroom isn't. That might be out of the way enough. But an indirect combustion furnace seems to take a lot of those worries away, doesn't it?

I'm very impressed, Wolf-man, that you stayed warm up at Camp Hale. It's hard to believe that once I cowboy-camped the Ski Cooper parking lot before a ski trip, in just a down bag on a foam pad. But that kind of absurdly extreme car-camping went out, for me, with the Reagan administration. Now, an unheated trailer seems barbaric!

I think about heaters all the time. Folks who live elsewhere might not relate to how much winter we've had here already on the Front Range. Even down in Denver, we've had two major storms that totaled over two feet. Two weeks before Thanksgiving! I need to go out and cut my Christmas tree soon. It's right beside my front door, a 25-foot cedar that broke its back in the last storm. "Tim-Brrrrrr.... "

Was it the Schnapp's perhaps that gave you the courage to cowboy camp in the middle of winter at Cooper?


I think I understand by your post that you are looking to dry camp? But just wanted to add that there is always campgrounds/rvparks open this time of year that you could camp at, plug in and have a electric heater to keep you warm and still let you camp. I get that campgrounds/rvparks are not wilderness camping but at least you can get away. Have fun!

We've been using a 110V AC heater sometimes. That's the cheap, easy solution. But there are just too many campgrounds without hookups, including most of the nicer ones. In the West, few National Park or Forest Service CGs have juice. The ones that do, like Trailer Village at the Grand Canyon and Watchman at Zion NP, get poor reviews. You wind up in a parking lot with your views blocked by bigger land yachts. I'd be kidding myself to say we'll do a lot of boondocking, but I'd like to be able to spend a warm night in any CG that tickles my fancy or meets my needs.

if you have no heat now, yes, it will take a bit of an investment for a nice unit, but done right, you'll be as snug as a bug in a... well, you know what I mean.

my little Burro has an Atwood... they are very popular units

http://www.pplmotorhomes.com/parts/rv-furn...per-furnace.htm

It will take a propane tank and a 12 volt power, like a marine battery.

I installed a Wave 3 in our 13' Scamp. I chose the Wave 3 because it mounts on the surface rather than having to be cut into an exterior wall. Also, we like to camp in places without hook-ups, so this is one less drag on the battery. It works really well for this size trailer. We start it on high, then turn it down to low for normal operation. We normally turn it off before going to bed. It's been totally reliable, silent, and warms up the Scamp in no time. Regarding CO, I installed a digital detector and see a few ppm with the heater running on high (way below any sort of alarm threshold). Running on low, it stays at 0 with just a modest amount of ventilation. For your application in a 16', I think I would install the larger model so it can run on low. I think the larger surface area of the catalyst bed would help eliminate CO production while still providing adequate heat.

Would I do it again? Yes. It's perfect for our mode of camping and subject to our operating habits. Would I use a catalytic heater for a family of three, or with pets, etc? I don't think I would. There is a source of ignition present, and if anyone gets careless with clothing or bedding, it could be a problem. We just bought a 16' Casita without furnace, and I think I'll probably go with the factory-supplied furnace, primarily because the blower will help distribute the heat more evenly. And the price really isn't that different, especially if I do most of the installation. And at some point if we sell the Casita, most people would probably rather have a furnace. I hope I don't regret that choice when it comes to battery drain and noise. The Wave 3 or 6 is a great choice, opertated with care.

Good luck with your choice!

Parker

The biggest heat loss and points of condensation in a lot of these trailers is from the single-pane windows. Since the Scamp has a plexiglass front window without a metal frame, the moisture from the inside of the window can be problematic. One solution is to use backpacker foam, cut to the gravel guard shape and either glued or just placed behind the guard and "locked" into place at night. The rest of the windows can be covered with insulation (Reflex?). Be sure to keep the vent open and air moving. Otherwise the trailer turns into a cold sauna.

If you plan to do much cold weather camping, you can insulate the floor by gluing blue styrofoam sheeting to the underside of the floor. Blue styrofoam is lightweight and doesn't hold moisture.

John
I had a gravity feed furnace in my Trillium 1300 that had no fan at all.
It was like the ones the factory uses now but just had no fan and thus was great when no power was available.
If you could find one of these I would think about it.
I am not sure why they stopped using them?

I stayed at Taylor once with mine in October and also on the Buena Vista side of Cottonwood Pass and also at the Spring Creek CG all while it was very "Brisk" or seasonal
to a native and I almost could not turn the heater down far enough.
Keeping a window open was no big sacrifice,in fact it was welcome.

A few years ago I was at a CG outside the Springs at Thanksgiving and a small electric cube really does do the job when there is power.
We are in Denver and the Springs every Thanksgiving and it is killing me deciding whether to camp or Hotel like the rest of the family.


I would think finding one of these older heaters in an RV junkyard may not be too tough?
Just a thought.

Ed

I thought I was in the wrong forum when I read this topic...I was going to tell you how I built the incubator for my turtle eggs!

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I only have an electric wall heater now but like the Wave 3 and might put one in when I move permanently to Washington. I don't think venting is a problem with the poptop up but could also crack a window, and I can convert the old Coleman Lamp gasline to the Wave 3, I think. (Or more likely, have someone do that for me!) I have a friend who has one in her camper and I liked it.

Bobbie

I installed a Platinum Cat in my Hunter I (photos here, bottom row). Haven't used it yet for camping, but in brief tests in the back yard, it seems to work well, and I can tell it will at least take the chill off, and maybe even get a little toasty, depending on the outside temp.

It's mounted in a cabinet door, which swings to face it up the aisle toward the seats/beds. It produces radiant heat, not forced air, sort of like a very small wood stove. The fan doesn't circulate warm air, but vents the combustion products to the outside. It uses very little electricity - according to my e-meter, it draws 4-5 amps for a minute or two at startup, then 0.25 amp when running.

This replaced an old Hydro Flame heater that came with the trailer. I bought the Plat Cat about 8 years ago from someone who had bought it new and never installed it, and finally found a use for it myself just a couple of months ago.

my old Coleman furnace is still working great. it's the fanless model so it draws no power to run. not sure if they still make them but I would think there's a newer model available. I've had camper with the fan in the past and you're lucky if it will go the night without killing the battery. I'm up in Winnipeg BTW so it's likely working a little harder.

as others have said, your sportcat should work fine but I question the venting when using these inside.

Hi John,

I have a new Casita and have spent 5 nights in it to date, as I'm getting it set up for solar (there's a thread on it in the forum). I've been camped at my brother's in Grand Junction, and it's been rather chilly, mid 20s. I have a vented heater that came installed with it, so I'm fine, and I really think that's what you're going to need. I base this on years of camping in W. Colorado and SE Utah, in cars, tents and pop-up campers.

I've camped in the San Rafael Desert (s. of Green River, Horseshoe Canyon) and all over the desert in the dead of winter. I used to have a Four Runner and I slept in the back of it, quite often my 5 gallon jug would freeze solid (outside). It wasn't always much fun, but the real secret is a good down bag and warm clothes, including a hat. You can survive about anything with the right gear. But being comfortable is another matter, and for that, get the vented heater.

I'm going solar so I can stay warm without having to move around, as the solar will recharge my batteries and thus I can run the heater. I boondock exclusively, so no plugins. I'm looking forward to spending the winter in SE Utah and will full time it. Feel free to PM me if you have any specific questions about wintering out there or can give me advice!

We, too, have a furnace with a 12v fan in our trailer. It does draw a bit of power, which caught us off-guard one cold night in Yellowstone last year. The punch-line of that story is we thought we had a backup heater for emergencies like that, a Portable Buddy heater that uses disposable 1lb propane cylinders. The sad truth with our Portable Buddy and it's ilk (like the Coleman BlackCat) is theu have oxygen sensors that don't work well at altitude, and at 7500 feet our heater would get all toasty warm, then go out. Not good when it's in the 'teens outside.

Yup, the windows and vents are the major heat loss culprits in our Scamp, and the floor gets pretty cold, too. My plans are to put two layers of clear bubble wrap in the vent domes (that'll allow some light in while providing insulation) and make insulating covers for the windows. Insulating the floor with foam panels from Home Depot would be good, too.

Our Surfside project trailer will largely get the same kind of treatment, but when we re-do the window frames I'll build a track for a transparent acrylic panel insert so I can "double pane" the jalousie windows to make them both more insulating and less leak-prone.

here's a possible solution, that not only heats but is an air conditioner too. This unit is really getting a lot of raves:

http://www.teardropshop.net/air-conditioner-heater

"At 2500 BTU, this heating and air conditioning unit will keep you warm in the winter and cool in the summer."

Specifications:

2500 BTU
Dimensions: 16.3"" X 14.5"" X 18.5""
Weight: 40-50 lbs
Voltage: 115
Phase: 1
Hertz: 60
Efficiency (Watts): 380 for Air Conditioner / 600 for Heater
Coolant: R134a Refrigerant
Amperes: 3.4 for AC / 5.5 for Heat
Features:

Built-In Return Air System
Adjustable Temperature Range (63-90 Degrees F)
Removable and Washable Air Filter
Energy Efficient
Indoor / Outdoor
Portable / Adaptable
Universal Adapter Kit

I bought one of those in our teardrop days. It was/is actually a dog house air conditioner. I don't think it would be sufficient for even a 13' egg. I built something similar using a 5,000 BTU window air conditioner for our Scamp, using four-inch hoses to connect from the unit on the ground. I would consider that the minimum useable (for cooling). When most furnaces are rated for at least 12,000 BTU, it just doesn't have enough ooomph for something like a 16' Scamp. Worked great with the teardrop, though!

Parker

I just returned from a week of camping in the mountains of the National Forest in my older Scamp 19. The night time temps. were around freezing. The buddy heater caused extreme condensation in the camper so I immediately switched to my electric ceramic heater. With the ceramic cube heater on the low setting which was powered by a Honda 2K on econ setting I was able to get 6-7 hours run time on a tank of fuel. The dry heat from the ceramic heater also eliminated almost all traces of condensation.
I did a lot of research on furnaces upon returning. Next year I plan to install an Atwood 8012 furnace. This is a 12K BTU furnace which only draws 1.8 amps. It looks like most suppliers just raised their prices to around $ 425.
Eddie

I'd love to see more pics of your surfside project. I have lots more to do on mine and I know everything you've done to your other egg has been brilliant!

1) I am not surprised. We tent camped in 1996 at Bryce Canyon in the middle of July and the overnight temperature got down to 25! That is all high country out there and high country is cold country.

2) I am glad you are still with us. Running any flame source in a closed space is a recipe for disaster. Luckily you had a CO detector or you might be reading this through the strings on your harp! And CO is not the only problem, but any gas appliance will burn oxygen and can remove the oxygen you need to live in a small space like an egg! There are so called vent free heaters, but I would be very wary using one:

http://www.heatershop.com/propane_space_heaters.html

3) We use an electric space heater just to avoid the CO/O2 problem. We do have a propane cooktop, but only use it with at least one window and the roof vent open. Here is the heater we use:

http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.j...oductId=1383741

Then we only use it while awake. When we go to sleep, we turn it off. Have camped in the Trillium 13' at Waterloo, OR last April when it got into the low 30's (I think). All I know is it was very cold outside but the little heater kept us toasty in the egg. Of course this would preclude having any kind of water in the tanks...

We had a toaster oven burn the counter top in a corner of our kitchen and so have learned to be wary of all appliances.

BTW If you do get a propane furnace, have a certified technician install it for you. Propane is a strange beast and requires special expertise to deal with. Not a DIY job.

I prefer to use a small electric "ceramic" heater if we have shore power. If not we have a "furnace" as part of the Duette Range Combo. The blower motor tends to run constantly though. While I have run the furnace through the night, I find a Down Comforter encased in a Silk Duvet keeps us warm while under it. (This works better if 2 of you are under there.) 600 thread count sheets help, too. Wearing socks in bed to keep your feet warm really help the rest of you feel warm. That way we turn off the furnace/heater while sleeping, and turn it on when we wake up.

We have the Wave 3, and use it in our 13', I have found it to be adequate, but would think that any larger of a space, and it would not be very effective. There is a larger unit called the Wave 6 that might take care of your needs, and it isn't much more expensive than the other ones. You can google it, to find a good price,this was the lowest I could find with out spending much time digging.

http://www.amazon.com/57341-Olympian-Wave-...r/dp/B000BV01CK
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Best of luck to ya, keep us updated!

When we used to have a Scamp 16, we used a Coleman Black Cat, which worked nicely at Toulemne Meadows high up in the Sierras at Yosemite. We used it to take the chill off, and never ran it overnight while sleeping for safety reasons. Sleeping bags kept us warm. It got down to 25 degrees outside, but we were cozy inside.

Now we have a Compact II with a smaller Coleman Sport Cat. Don't plan to do snow/winter camping though.

Donna is right on about window insulation; I'm going to try her 'foam behind the gravel guard' idea. Plus as I rebuild the C II, a lot of insulation is being installed.

For cold weather use, a carpet runner fastened down with double-sided tape might provide simple, temporary floor insulation.

Fran
74 Compact II

Donna: I am interested in learning a bit more about both of these insulation options, as I am unfamiliar with some of the products folks use on their eggs.

Can you give me a bit more description (or a link) to the backpacker foam you mentioned? That looks like a great idea!

For the windows, I see something at Home Depot called Reflectix --it's sold in a 4' x 25' roll. Is that the stuff? Any idea how to apply it to the windows? I would think it should be easily removed and reapplied, so it could be used just at night, for example. Or would you leave it on all the time in the colder months?

What about the blue styrofoam? Any specs or sources for that? Also, are there threads that discuss how to apply it to the underside of the floor?

Thanks,
Tom

I did buy an inexpensive Pelonis ceramic heater, for use when shore power was available. But I depend more on my very good down sleeping bag if it gets very cold. And, since most of the heat loss in our bodies is lost through the head, wear a warm knit hat to bed. The first item of clothing a knowledgeable backpacker sheds to regulate his temperature when beginning to overheat is the hat, and the first clothing item he (or she) dons at the onset of cold, is that very same hat. The same principle works at night, too. If it is really cold, the hat upon the head, while the head is stuffed deep inside the warmth of a good, down mummy bag. With the Casita now, If it becomes that cold, I'll likely head either lower or further south as soon as the morning sun is up above the horizon.

Tom, I bought a roll of backpacker foam at Target.. in the sporting goods section. It's available just about anywhere backpackers buy equipment. I used a couple of pieces of newspaper taped together to create a template of the window and cut the foam with a pair of really good scissors. When the foam isn't in use it hides under the front bunk cushion (stays flat that way too).

Yes, that's the Reflectix I was speaking about. You can get smaller rolls than 25'... or do as I did and buy car windshield screens for a buck at the Dollar Store. Make a pattern just like for the backpacker foam and cut to shape for each window. It's been suggested to use magnetic tape to anchor to the window frames. A piece on the frame and a piece on the reflectix. I bought a roll of magnetic tape that's 1/2" wide at a fabric store. It's sticky back. That will work on the reflectix, but needs something stronger to glue it to the window frame as that frame gets hot in the sun and I don't think the glue will hold for long. I'm going to use Windshield Gasket Caulk... it's designed for heat. Can get it at any auto parts store. I haven't done this yet. But know it's going to work as planned.

The blue styrofoam is available at big box stores like Lowe's or Home Depot. Check with them about the proper glue... you don't want it to melt. You'll need to put it in like a puzzle around the plumbing, etc. So they can also tell you how to cut it... some recommend a hot knife, but I've had good luck with a D-shaped saw and a thin blade. And the floor will need to be really really clean... as it probably has road rash, etc. and the glue needs to stick... don't want to leave styrofoam on the highway!

Good luck, I'm sure others will chime in with other info too!

On edit: I just read a post on a different forum where someone made a skirt of oiled canvas that they placed around the entire bottom of the their trailer (think 5th wheel nose curtain). That would work too and someone else stacks bales of hay around the bottom of their trailer to keep the cold and wind from blowing under. Just some other ideas.

I would vote strongly for the skirt option over the foam-glued-to-underside option for a couple of reasons:

1) From research and experience on houses with crawl spaces in Northern Minnesota, it works better to skirt around the outside and keep that warm, wind-free space underneath working for you (vs. insulating right under the floor and letting the cold whistle through underneath).

2) Although the foam (if it's the proper type) won't absorb moisture, it very easily could trap moisture between itself and your floor, which could cause rot. Yes, if there were a perfect bond on 100% of the foam and floor, and that were never compromised, it wouldn't; but how likely is that on an existing trailer, and after more road use?

First though, I'd do the obvious stuff on the walls/roof, and try a throw rug. If that wasn't enough, then I'd make some kind of skirting (but, the hassle factor is huge and may not justify it).

Another note from living in frigid, windy Northern Minnesota: Although cold just seeping through underinsulated walls is definitely an issue, a teeny-tiny draft will make you ten times colder. So stalk until you find any and all drafts and eliminate them.

Raya

John Mc,

You said dry camping with children in the winter. I wouldn't use any of the portable propane heaters with children around in a small trailer.

With children and most likely wanting to keep the trailer quite warm I'd suggest purchasing a generator so you can run an electric heater as much as you want. You'd still have to be careful with children and a heater that is loose on the floor or elsewhere. Most of the little cube heaters are cool to touch and do have tip over shut offs.

I'd also install a furnace. Now I have the furnace and what you need to know is that it takes lots of juice for the fan and will run the battery down. So using it can be limiting, such as not all night if you want the trailer quite warm. I've run mine all night but it only kicks on occasionally as I just wanted the chill taken off not a warm trailer.

Anymore, I snuggle under layers of down without the furnace on and just prior to getting up in the morning I reach over and turn the furnace on. BUT, that's just me...I have no children with me and know that if I did things would be much different.

I thought this would be a hot topic for these chilly nights. Thanks for all your thoughtful & relevant replies, as well as for any others I might have missed. ;>

We've wound up here with a broad collection of heating and insulating strategies. Let's develop it as far as we can-- it might become a useful "sticky" for future reference.

As for me, I've already lined the back of my cabinets with Reflectix. I like the idea of adding side seals to our night blackout curtains, that should help. Custom-cut foam panels would do much more to stop heat loss. A throw rug makes simple sense.

We'll always carry a cheap 1500 watt AC heater for CG's equipped with electricity. But we really do need a small furnace. Ironically, our Scamp still wears a double-vent-port grill from the Suburban Furnace that was removed by a previous owner. (Why, oh why did he do that?) FYI, Scamp's current Parts Dept. price of $365 for this unit is over $100 less than other RV suppliers I've found on the Net, so this seems like a golden opportunity. I know it's powerful enough, and it seems like the safest choice by a wide margin. I'll ask for it as a Christmas present.

Speaking of safety, and speaking especially to Roger, please don't worry about me. I knew that cooking with the windows shut was a risky practice. I just wanted to know how risky. I wanted to test how my new CO detector would react, to see if it was working properly. I was also testing the maximum possible heating capacity of the stovetop. Cooking certainly can heat up a trailer from warm to hot in the summertime, but I found that a ten-degree rise is much less noticeable when you're starting at 20 degrees rather than 80 degrees. In other words, cooking can make a trailer too hot, but it can't make it warm enough when you really need it.

I sit on mine