Battery Discussion, split from: Tow vehicle considerations-The journey - Page 2 - Fiberglass RV


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Old 01-18-2013, 10:10 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Thomas G. View Post
These issues will be worked out in time, just like they always are. Virtually every cell phone and lap top in the world has lithium ion batteries and the carnage has thus far been contained.
Much "containment" thus far has involved recalls of consumer goods, mostly due to the potential for/instances of thermal runaway. LI batteries as small as those you describe pose a hazard mostly just to the item itself. As they go up in size, the hazard extends to surrounding structures/people/etc.

I for one think it unwise to be an unwitting participant in the "working it out" process you describe, at least for anything bigger than a candy bar. Furthermore, I think it a bit of a stretch to think that a general population evidently unable to keep its tires properly aired should be trusted to manage what seems to be a relatively volatile battery in the sizes required to power a car.


Quote:
With the increase in applications for these batteries, it has become apparent that there are some safety issues that need to be addressed. Batteries can catch fire if they are damaged, exposed to high temperatures ( exceeding 290F ) or packaged incorrectly. Lithium-ion battery thermal runaway reactions can exceed 1,220 F, the melting point of aluminum, a key material in airplane construction. Lithium-metal battery fires are far hotter yet.
Source of quote link

As a matter of fact, Boeing had to get a waiver to an FAA rule to put those batteries aboard the Dreamliner in the first place. ("bigger" LI batteries such as those in professional video cameras are prohibited on planes.)


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Old 01-18-2013, 10:21 AM   #16
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And yet, there must have been major auto accidents involving large lithium-ion batteries by now. If one had blown up, I'm thinking it would have made the news.
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Old 01-18-2013, 10:26 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Francesca Knowles View Post
..........
I for one think it unwise to be an unwitting participant in the "working it out" process you describe, at least for anything bigger than a candy bar. Furthermore, I think it a bit of a stretch to think that a general population evidently unable to keep its tires properly aired should be trusted to manage what seems to be a relatively volatile battery in the sizes required to power a car.
So don't buy an electric car, or ride in a 787. Ride in a nice conventional car where only 40,000 people a year die.

Quote:
As a matter of fact, Boeing had to get a waiver to an FAA rule to put those batteries aboard the Dreamliner in the first place. ("bigger" LI batteries such as those in professional video cameras are prohibited on planes.)

Francesca.
I'm sure you know a lot more about air safety than the PhDs at the FAA and Boeing. Perhaps they should have consulted you beforehand.
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Old 01-18-2013, 06:24 PM   #18
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My experience comes from owning an Escape hybrid, now 6 years old, which uses the NiMh batteries. The batteries in an electric car are not thrashed like a battery in, say, a cordless drill. My batteries are never discharged below 40% and never charged over 53 % except about once a year when it does a conditioning cycle.
This is a good point, and experience with the same hybrid design in Toyotas is similar.

Caution is required when applying it to other vehicles. A typical hybrid has very small energy storage requirements compared to a vehicle attempting to get long electric-only range, so the typical hybrid can use the battery quite conservatively. In contrast, a pure battery-electric vehicle is more like a cordless drill. For example, the Tesla Roadster's battery management was tuned to produce impressive range, but the vehicle is infamous for destroying batteries when the owner is not sufficiently diligent in following operating procedures.

There are a couple thousand of those Tesla Roadsters out there (in service for a couple of years on average), and while a handful have killed batteries, I have not found a report of any batteries causing fires. Tesla uses lithium-ion batteries.

If anyone is interested in lithium-ion batteries, they should understand that there are several lithium-ion battery chemistries, with different characteristics. The Tesla batteries work safely despite their chemistry, which is the same as a laptop computer battery, rather than something more suitable for an electric car.
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Old 01-18-2013, 06:36 PM   #19
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........

Caution is required when applying it to other vehicles. A typical hybrid has very small energy storage requirements compared to a vehicle attempting to get long electric-only range, so the typical hybrid can use the battery quite conservatively. In contrast, a pure battery-electric vehicle is more like a cordless drill. ...........
I'm not sure what the charge/ discharge cycle is on all-electric cars. Here is Leaf warranty:

Quote:
Lithium-Ion Battery Gradual Capacity Loss:

In addition to the Lithium-Ion Battery Coverage for defects in materials or workmanship (96 months/100,000 miles), the Nissan LEAF Lithium-Ion battery is also warranted against capacity loss below nine (9) bars of capacity as shown on the vehicle's battery capacity level gauge for a period of 60 months or 60,000 miles, whichever comes first.
Volt Warranty:
Quote:
Even if you never use it, you know you’ve got a backup plan. Chevy puts the same kind of confidence behind our 8-year/100,000-mile Battery and Voltec Component Limited Warranty.†
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Old 01-18-2013, 08:18 PM   #20
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Old 01-18-2013, 09:40 PM   #21
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I'm sure you know a lot more about air safety than the PhDs at the FAA and Boeing. Perhaps they should have consulted you beforehand.
????????

No need to get Testy, Tom...

There was nothing in my post that said that the waiver shouldn't have been granted- obviously it was based on the best information available at the time.

Maybe Boeing would've done well to have put some Chevy engineers on the team, though, since there's evidently so much consumer confidence in their Li-power design capabilities!
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Old 01-19-2013, 12:42 AM   #22
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They're not the only aircraft manufacturer with li-ion problems...

FAA Issues Emergency AD For Cessna 525C Airplanes | Aero-News Network

The guys at the factory couldn't put it out, fire department showed up and finally got it out. Apparently it's damn near like a magnesium fire.

I don't have a dog in this fight, just saying it's not all sunshine and rainbows with them.
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Old 01-19-2013, 09:42 AM   #23
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????????
...........

Maybe Boeing would've done well to have put some Chevy engineers on the team, though, since there's evidently so much consumer confidence in their Li-power design capabilities!
You may find it useful to know that not only GM uses lithium batteries, but so does Nissan, Toyota, Hyundai, Ford, Tesla, Porsche...........


So, what was this thread about? Someone bought an SSR and was worried about the mirrors?
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Old 01-19-2013, 01:54 PM   #24
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You may find it useful to know that not only GM uses lithium batteries, but so does Nissan, Toyota, Hyundai, Ford, Tesla, Porsche...........


So, what was this thread about? Someone bought an SSR and was worried about the mirrors?
Irrelevant side note per the Tesla: Don't even get me started about Tesla's "$40,000.00 brick" problem (link). But that's more a consumer issue than a safety one. Anyway, Tesla's Li packs are much different from Chevy's (or Boeing's)- they're made up of multiple very small batteries.

I didn't single the Volt out- my first post on the subject was a response to yours in which you mentioned the Volt. My post was specific to the coincidental and current very serious problem that Boeing is having with the battery type. One can only hope that the grounding and current investigation will lead the FAA to rethink their acceptance of Boeing's analysis of the 2010 Dreamliner fire that killed two pilots. The conclusion at that time was that the fire was caused by the cargo of lithium batteries rather than the onboard Li's that are presently the focus of attention.

As for Li powered cars and their alleged lack of problems so far:

It seems likely to me that fewer "problems" have been reported among Li-powered electric car users simply due to the vanishingly small number of them on the road....most of which have evidently not yet been involved in the kind of circumstances in which the Li battery as used in the Volt can "self destruct".

But there have been at least three catastrophes involving the Volt itself, two of which while admittedly posing no immediate threat to vehicle occupants, pose a very significant downstream risk to probably unaware innocent bystanders. In those two cases, the battery itself burst into flames one to several weeks after the car was "totaled": once by crash testing (link) and once by fire!

The fire-destroyed one is particularly striking: evidently the battery survived a garage fire in which the rest of the car was mostly consumed- only to burst into flames a week later while still in its place in the burnt out hulk. (link)

GM's response to concerns re. consumer safety is officially- and pay attention to the carefully parsed words-
Quote:
the Volt "is safe and does not present undue risk as part of normal operation or immediately after a severe crash."
Emphasis mine...

But since the crash test that resulted in the fire at the testing facility was a mere 20 mph side impact, one has to wonder about down the line when some such incident puts that puppy in a body shop waiting for a new quarter panel with its probably damaged battery ticking down to zero-hour.

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Old 01-20-2013, 01:53 PM   #25
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One can only hope that the grounding and current investigation will lead the FAA to rethink their acceptance of Boeing's analysis of the 2010 Dreamliner fire that killed two pilots. The conclusion at that time was that the fire was caused by the cargo of lithium batteries rather than the onboard Li's that are presently the focus of attention.
The Boeing 787 "Dreamliner" didn't even enter service until 2011; the 2010 FedEx fire and crash was of a 747, a fine old aircraft which has no lithium batteries of its own.

While this doesn't change the assertion that lithium batteries can be hazardous (they were in the crashed 747's cargo), confusing two aircraft that have little in common beyond the brand - and then as a result incorrectly implying that the FAA and Boeing both improperly investigated an incident - does suggest that it would be a good idea to slow down and understand what you're reading.
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Old 01-20-2013, 01:56 PM   #26
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........ confusing two aircraft that have little in common beyond the brand - and then as a result incorrectly implying that the FAA and Boeing both improperly investigated an incident - does suggest that it would be a good idea to slow down and understand what you're reading.
........................
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Old 01-20-2013, 03:07 PM   #27
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the 2010 FedEx fire and crash was of a 747, a fine old aircraft which has no lithium batteries of its own.......it would be a good idea to slow down and understand what you're reading.


O.K....thanks!




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Old 01-20-2013, 07:51 PM   #28
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and then as a result incorrectly implying that the FAA and Boeing both improperly investigated an incident -
Having lost family in a plane crash I think one would be safe in assuming that the National Transportation Safety Board Accident Investigator's do a very thorough job of inspecting the plane and all its records and flight data. They normally get right down to rebuilding the plane and recreating the accident before they signed off on any report as to cause of accident. Trust me those guys have no dog in the fight when it comes to their investigation findings.
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