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01-15-2013, 10:48 PM
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#1
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Senior Member
Name: David
Trailer: Former 13’Scamp, now Snoozy
Arizona
Posts: 2,316
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Battery Discussion, split from: Tow vehicle considerations-The journey
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alf S.
Hi: All... I've found that the one variable, when you have a fiberglass trailer that could last many years, is the tug. We now have our second tow vehicle and I wanted a full 4dr. pickup but not one of the massive ones. I think we have the ideal combo now IMHO!!!
Your mileage may vary.
Alf S. North shore of Lake Erie
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It looks like things are going to change drastically in the near. Check out Jay Leno's interview about this extended range full sized truck or SUV that gets 100 mpg.
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01-16-2013, 08:15 AM
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#2
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Senior Member
Name: george
Trailer: FunFinder
Missouri
Posts: 455
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David B.
It looks like things are going to change drastically in the near. Check out Jay Leno's interview about this extended range full sized truck or SUV that gets 100 mpg.
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That's interesting and the tech is very cool. It's a little bit misleading though on their cost comparison because when they mention how little gasoline their Volt cars have used, they did not factor in the cost of electricity they used at home while plugged in for overnight recharging. Last time I checked, Kansas City Power and Light does not provide electrical power to my house for free. More like about $.11/kW/hr. Just sayin'......
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01-16-2013, 08:02 PM
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#3
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Senior Member
Name: Mike
Trailer: 2012 Escape 19
Oklahoma
Posts: 6,021
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmw photos
That's interesting and the tech is very cool. It's a little bit misleading though on their cost comparison because when they mention how little gasoline their Volt cars have used, they did not factor in the cost of electricity they used at home while plugged in for overnight recharging. Last time I checked, Kansas City Power and Light does not provide electrical power to my house for free. More like about $.11/kW/hr. Just sayin'......
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Yep, electricity isn't free. They said 32 kW batteries on board, but the graphic said 24 kW. Not sure which is correct. And they said the batts would carry the truck 40 or 50 miles before the genny kicked in. Assuming 32 kW, and figuring that it takes a little more than 32kW of plug-in electric to recharge to that level (there's always some inefficiency loss), at 11 cents/kWHr that would be between $3 and $3.25 to recharge. Which makes that first burst of electric driving equal to maybe 45 mpg or so? I wonder how it plays out on the genny use? 100 mpg equivalent just seems way over the top exaggerated.
And then there's the high cost of replacing the batteries when they wear out in 2 or 3 years, the effect on the environment of generating the electricity and of disposing or remanufacturing the batteries, the fact that our electric grid can't support a bunch of electric vehicles being charged, and so on. I like Jay Leno, but when he says this is the future, I wonder where he set down his rose-colored glasses.
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01-17-2013, 06:56 PM
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#4
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Senior Member
Trailer: No Trailer Yet
Posts: 5,112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Magee
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And then there's the high cost of replacing the batteries when they wear out in 2 or 3 years,............
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I don't think that this is accurate. My experience comes from owning an Escape hybrid, now 6 years old, which uses the NiMh batteries. The batteries in an electric car are not thrashed like a battery in, say, a cordless drill. My batteries are never discharged below 40% and never charged over 53 % except about once a year when it does a conditioning cycle. They have their own temperature control, even their own air conditioning coil to maintain an optimal temperature. Escape hybrids are used extensively as taxis in NY and San Francisco and many have completed 350,000 miles with the original battery pack. The Chevy Volt uses a similar strategy with its lithium ion battery and warrants the battery for 8 years or 100,000 miles.
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01-17-2013, 08:11 PM
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#5
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Senior Member
Name: Francesca Knowles
Trailer: '78 Trillium 4500
Jefferson County, Washington State, U.S.A.
Posts: 4,669
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas G.
The Chevy Volt uses a similar strategy with its lithium ion battery and warrants the battery for 8 years or 100,000 miles.
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Newsflash!
Source: Reuters
Date: TODAY: Jan. 17, 2013
Boeing 787's Grounded Worldwide :Lithium Batteries Problem
Francesca
__________________
............... ..................
Propane Facts vs. Fiction:. Click here
Tow Limit Calculator: Click here
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01-17-2013, 08:35 PM
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#6
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Senior Member
Trailer: No Trailer Yet
Posts: 5,112
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What is your point?
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01-17-2013, 09:01 PM
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#7
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Senior Member
Trailer: Escape 17 ft
Posts: 8,317
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Hybrid cars won't fly???
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01-17-2013, 10:31 PM
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#8
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Senior Member
Trailer: 2004 13 ft Scamp Custom Deluxe
Posts: 8,520
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Baglo
Hybrid cars won't fly???
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Not around my shop they won't!
My 4Cyl-5spd Escape gets highway MPG equal to the Escape Hybrid at half the initial cost and a fraction of the long term maintenance costs.
I don't live in a city.
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01-17-2013, 10:49 PM
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#9
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Senior Member
Name: Francesca Knowles
Trailer: '78 Trillium 4500
Jefferson County, Washington State, U.S.A.
Posts: 4,669
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas G.
What is your point?
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Lithium batteries have been making the news for months as fire hazards-
But maybe you haven't heard!
Carry on!
Francesca
__________________
............... ..................
Propane Facts vs. Fiction:. Click here
Tow Limit Calculator: Click here
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01-18-2013, 05:49 AM
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#10
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Senior Member
Trailer: Trillium 2010
Posts: 5,185
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And then there's......
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01-18-2013, 07:06 AM
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#11
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Senior Member
Trailer: No Trailer Yet
Posts: 5,112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Francesca Knowles
Lithium batteries have been making the news for months as fire hazards-
But maybe you haven't heard!
Carry on!
Francesca
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You might be interested to know that gasoline and propane are extremely explosive. Please, please don't tell me you are driving around with any in your car or trailer.
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01-18-2013, 09:06 AM
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#12
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Senior Member
Name: Francesca Knowles
Trailer: '78 Trillium 4500
Jefferson County, Washington State, U.S.A.
Posts: 4,669
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas G.
You might be interested to know that gasoline and propane are extremely explosive. Please, please don't tell me you are driving around with any in your car or trailer.
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Apples and oranges...but thanks for the heads up!
I'll keep my eyes peeled for evidence that having either aboard under normal operating conditions is hazardous enough to warrant "grounding" my fleet...
Francesca
__________________
............... ..................
Propane Facts vs. Fiction:. Click here
Tow Limit Calculator: Click here
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01-18-2013, 09:40 AM
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#13
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Senior Member
Trailer: No Trailer Yet
Posts: 5,112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Francesca Knowles
Apples and oranges...but thanks for the heads up!
I'll keep my eyes peeled for evidence that having either aboard under normal operating conditions is hazardous enough to warrant "grounding" my fleet...
Francesca
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Your point, as I interpreted it, was that you have some insight that lithium ion batteries are inherently dangerous due to your association with the recent 787 groundings. And, more alarmingly, you have now discovered (evidently from my post above) that electric cars also use lithium batteries. Any new technology has a growing in period to address safety concerns. These issues will be worked out in time, just like they always are. Virtually every cell phone and lap top in the world has lithium ion batteries and the carnage has thus far been contained.
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01-18-2013, 09:48 AM
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#14
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Senior Member
Trailer: 92 16 ft Scamp
Posts: 11,756
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Francesca Knowles
Lithium batteries have been making the news for months as fire hazards-
Francesca
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humm 9 volt and AA's have been making the news for years as fire hazards but most of us keep using them and have lots of them in our homes and trailers.
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01-18-2013, 10:10 AM
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#15
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Senior Member
Name: Francesca Knowles
Trailer: '78 Trillium 4500
Jefferson County, Washington State, U.S.A.
Posts: 4,669
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas G.
These issues will be worked out in time, just like they always are. Virtually every cell phone and lap top in the world has lithium ion batteries and the carnage has thus far been contained.
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Much "containment" thus far has involved recalls of consumer goods, mostly due to the potential for/instances of thermal runaway. LI batteries as small as those you describe pose a hazard mostly just to the item itself. As they go up in size, the hazard extends to surrounding structures/people/etc.
I for one think it unwise to be an unwitting participant in the "working it out" process you describe, at least for anything bigger than a candy bar. Furthermore, I think it a bit of a stretch to think that a general population evidently unable to keep its tires properly aired should be trusted to manage what seems to be a relatively volatile battery in the sizes required to power a car.
Quote:
With the increase in applications for these batteries, it has become apparent that there are some safety issues that need to be addressed. Batteries can catch fire if they are damaged, exposed to high temperatures ( exceeding 290°F ) or packaged incorrectly. Lithium-ion battery thermal runaway reactions can exceed 1,220 °F, the melting point of aluminum, a key material in airplane construction. Lithium-metal battery fires are far hotter yet.
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Source of quote link
As a matter of fact, Boeing had to get a waiver to an FAA rule to put those batteries aboard the Dreamliner in the first place. ("bigger" LI batteries such as those in professional video cameras are prohibited on planes.)
Francesca.
__________________
............... ..................
Propane Facts vs. Fiction:. Click here
Tow Limit Calculator: Click here
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01-18-2013, 10:21 AM
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#16
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Senior Member
Name: Dave W
Trailer: Trillium 4500 - 1976, 1978, 1979, 1300 - 1977, and a 1973
Alberta
Posts: 6,926
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And yet, there must have been major auto accidents involving large lithium-ion batteries by now. If one had blown up, I'm thinking it would have made the news.
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01-18-2013, 10:26 AM
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#17
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Senior Member
Trailer: No Trailer Yet
Posts: 5,112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Francesca Knowles
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I for one think it unwise to be an unwitting participant in the "working it out" process you describe, at least for anything bigger than a candy bar. Furthermore, I think it a bit of a stretch to think that a general population evidently unable to keep its tires properly aired should be trusted to manage what seems to be a relatively volatile battery in the sizes required to power a car.
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So don't buy an electric car, or ride in a 787. Ride in a nice conventional car where only 40,000 people a year die.
Quote:
As a matter of fact, Boeing had to get a waiver to an FAA rule to put those batteries aboard the Dreamliner in the first place. ("bigger" LI batteries such as those in professional video cameras are prohibited on planes.)
Francesca.
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I'm sure you know a lot more about air safety than the PhDs at the FAA and Boeing. Perhaps they should have consulted you beforehand.
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01-18-2013, 06:24 PM
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#18
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Senior Member
Trailer: Boler (B1700RGH) 1979
Posts: 5,002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas G.
My experience comes from owning an Escape hybrid, now 6 years old, which uses the NiMh batteries. The batteries in an electric car are not thrashed like a battery in, say, a cordless drill. My batteries are never discharged below 40% and never charged over 53 % except about once a year when it does a conditioning cycle.
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This is a good point, and experience with the same hybrid design in Toyotas is similar.
Caution is required when applying it to other vehicles. A typical hybrid has very small energy storage requirements compared to a vehicle attempting to get long electric-only range, so the typical hybrid can use the battery quite conservatively. In contrast, a pure battery-electric vehicle is more like a cordless drill. For example, the Tesla Roadster's battery management was tuned to produce impressive range, but the vehicle is infamous for destroying batteries when the owner is not sufficiently diligent in following operating procedures.
There are a couple thousand of those Tesla Roadsters out there (in service for a couple of years on average), and while a handful have killed batteries, I have not found a report of any batteries causing fires. Tesla uses lithium-ion batteries.
If anyone is interested in lithium-ion batteries, they should understand that there are several lithium-ion battery chemistries, with different characteristics. The Tesla batteries work safely despite their chemistry, which is the same as a laptop computer battery, rather than something more suitable for an electric car.
__________________
1979 Boler B1700RGH, pulled by 2004 Toyota Sienna LE 2WD
Information is good. Lack of information is not so good, but misinformation is much worse. Check facts, and apply common sense liberally.
STATUS: No longer active in forum.
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01-18-2013, 06:36 PM
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#19
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Senior Member
Trailer: No Trailer Yet
Posts: 5,112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian B-P
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Caution is required when applying it to other vehicles. A typical hybrid has very small energy storage requirements compared to a vehicle attempting to get long electric-only range, so the typical hybrid can use the battery quite conservatively. In contrast, a pure battery-electric vehicle is more like a cordless drill. ...........
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I'm not sure what the charge/ discharge cycle is on all-electric cars. Here is Leaf warranty:
Quote:
Lithium-Ion Battery Gradual Capacity Loss:
In addition to the Lithium-Ion Battery Coverage for defects in materials or workmanship (96 months/100,000 miles), the Nissan LEAF® Lithium-Ion battery is also warranted against capacity loss below nine (9) bars of capacity as shown on the vehicle's battery capacity level gauge for a period of 60 months or 60,000 miles, whichever comes first.
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Volt Warranty:
Quote:
Even if you never use it, you know you’ve got a backup plan. Chevy puts the same kind of confidence behind our 8-year/100,000-mile Battery and Voltec Component Limited Warranty.†
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01-18-2013, 08:18 PM
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#20
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Senior Member
Trailer: 2004 13 ft Scamp Custom Deluxe
Posts: 8,520
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Remember what the Wizard said to the original strawman?
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