Change the tow vehicle, trailer, neither?

[Bob Miller]

As far as aerodynamics, driving into a 20 mph headwind at 55 mph is no different than what you get when driving 75 mph. I see lots of complaints about what happens when driving into a headwind, but almost every one credits "My Good Driving" when economy happens to go up with a tail wind.

Isn't it a little suspect when "Off line" advice is offered?
If it's about FGRV'ing, and is safe and legal, why can't it be shared with all of us????

BTW: Is "aerodynamic trailer" the new code word for "Airstream"

[MC1]

Originally Posted by rgrugg

If you need to gas up every 150-200 miles that translates approximately to every 3-4 hours. Don't know about you but I need to get out and move around after that amount of time sitting. Also, sitting in one position is setting oneself up for blood clots in the legs which can become deadly if they migrate to heart or lungs. Personally I wear pressure socks to help avoid those and 3-4 hours means potty stops for many people. Just my own experience and I confess to being an 'old fart."

So true rg. No matter what the age of the driver stretching the legs often is a good thing.

[MC1]

Originally Posted by Bob Miller

As far as aerodynamics,

A good subject Bob. You have reminded me of some aerodynamic testing that was done down in the States. It shows the value have having an aerodynamic trailer. There are a number of trailers built including many glass eggs that have an aerodynamic design. It all helps.

Also realize the trailer is only half the topic. Placing an aerodynamic tow vehicle in front of the trailer really helps with poking a hole in the wall of air that the rig is constantly fighting at highway speed.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...elTesting1.jpg

[Bob Miller]

While I agree that aerodynamic shape has value, an advertisement from Airstream, without any supporting evidence, techniques, dates, examples used in the tests, documentation etc. is just that, a self-serving advertisement. But they did mention that a "Dr." at a University did the tests, so they must be true.

Of much greater interest would have been figures for 65 MPH, but maybe 55 mph was the speed limit when the testing was done, or maybe things tended to equal out at higher speeds. As passenger vans have been around since the early 60's it's hard telling how old those tests might be.

That said, it's no secret that the earlier Airstreams were much more aerodynamic than the later versions and one would expect those kinds of differences in a worst case scenario.

BTW: Isn't just saying that you like the boxy BigFoot trailers (except the 13' Lil Bigfoot of course) considered blasphemy in Airstream circles..... it might even be grounds for excommunication from the club.

[smeagol]

Originally Posted by MC1

Good day Brian... I read your initial post and going to throw out a few points. If you would like more info on what I have listed below let me know.

We tow a 23' aerodynamic trailer and to date averaged 16MPG towing. Our V6 car gets 27MPG solo.

M'Kesh miirrors work great.

Toy 4 Runners are a poor choice for a TV. It's not about weight and tow ratings. It's about overall design.

Generally speaking a dual axle trailer is going to feel better when towing (more stable feel).

PS.... I am a big fan of Bigfoot trailers.

I saw another post you made regarding the 4Runners being poor tow vehicles. Do you have any source/evidence for this statement? My first hand experience has been very positive, and the only safety issue I have with my current configuration is the visibility issue. The overwhelming consensus by owners has been positive as well, judging by the months of searching I did on the web prior to purchasing the 4Runner.

[MC1]

Originally Posted by smeagol

I saw another post you made regarding the 4Runners being poor tow vehicles. Do you have any source/evidence for this statement?

Yes Brian.... Here are some sources.....

See post #13 here.... "Don't buy a 4Runner to tow with."

Another 4runner question - Airstream Forums


See post #11

Which Airstream for 4Runner - Airstream Forums

Note.... The source has set up and driven 1,000's of various rigs so he has many to use as a comparison.

Note II.... Don't shoot "me", I'm just the messenger. :7)

[Bob Miller]

How about some evaluations from FGRV users. I think that all these references to the Airstream cult are wearing on some of us.

I was at an Airstream Club sponsored "Vintage Trailer Show" a few months ago and, if there was ever a group more in love with themselves, I have yet to meet them.

[MC1]

Originally Posted by Bob Miller

BTW: Isn't just saying that you like the boxy BigFoot trailers (except the 13' Lil Bigfoot of course) considered blasphemy in Airstream circles..... it might even be grounds for excommunication from the club.

LOL, I don't belong to the club. I just like Airstream and Bigfoot trailers.

[tractors1]

We settled on a Escape 21 after almost a year of shopping and test towing other trailers with a Taco V6 4dr 4WD long bed rated at 6400 lbs towing. Looked at all the glass trailers as a move up from a Casita 17LD and decided the others were either heavier, too wide, or both when a no-crawl-over bed was present. The Escape Forum (Escapeforum.org) has posts with the same tows getting 14-18 mpg. The 21 was just introduced last year and production for the rest of this year is booked already, same for their new double axle 5th wheel (old one was single axle.)

Charlie Y

[honda03842]

This is our aerodynamic experience based upon owning similar sized square and rounded trailers.

We've towed two trailers for extended periods, a 15.5' x 7' Sunline that weighed 2200 lbs, and a 16' x 6'8" Scamp 16 that weighs 2600 lbs. We also towed a Casita 16 for 6 months. All trailers were towed with the same tow vehicle, our Honda CRV.

The Sunline was a box, actually with the best layout and balance of the three. All of its weighty items were directly over or right beside the axle including the water tank, gray tank and black tank. Actually it's thin gray tank was located between the axle and the floor.

The Scamp and Casita towed almost identically with respect to mileage per gallon.

The mileage with the Sunline was the worst of the 3 trailers consistently getting about 10% fewer mpg even though it weighed about 10% less.
I attributed this to it's shape.

Both the Scamp and the Sunline traveled to the same places, each making loops of the USA, trips to Florida and to Newfoundland.

We loved the Sunline, our first trailer and would still be using it except it leaked. The Sunline also had a dry shower I had installed. Though shorter than the Scamp and Casita, it's square shape gave it more useful storage space.

None of the trailers had roof top air conditioners or awnings.

Air resistance is directly proportional to frontal area regardless of shape, wider and taller are both negative for mpg, it's not necessarily weight that counts, the coefficient of drag is very important. Boxes have higher coefficients of drag.

As far as I can determine the difference between 55 and 65 mph is about 30% fewer mpg at 65 with the majority of the horsepower going into overcoming air resistance.

Interestingly, formula 1 cars have high coefficients of drag, though low frontal areas. Their problem is getting sufficient downward force to keep the vehicle on the ground at very high speeds.

[War Eagle]

Brian, I'll admit up front that I'm a big diesel fan - can't beat the combination of torque, fuel mileage and engine longevity. There's a reason why virtually every 18-wheelers on the road is running on diesel. And when you get right down to it, those tractors are built for one main purpose - pulling trailers. Biggest problem today is the high price the large petroleum companies are wringing out of long-haul truckers for diesel because they know those truckers don't have a choice. But even at the higher price, it still usually pencils out on fuel economy, so it's like getting the extra torque for towing at no extra cost. Auto websites and magazines are saying GM, Toyota and Nissan will all be offering diesel engines (5.0L?) in their Colorado (reintroduced), Tundra and Titan pickups over the next few years. And I can't believe Ford doesn't have something similar on the drawing board (hopefully for the reintroduction of an up-sized Ranger). So don't simply dismiss diesel. Check into it, and if it makes sense to you, then you can use your current down time now to try to convince your wife.

[smeagol]

Originally Posted by MC1

Yes Brian.... Here are some sources.....

See post #13 here.... "Don't buy a 4Runner to tow with."

Another 4runner question - Airstream Forums


See post #11

Which Airstream for 4Runner - Airstream Forums

Note.... The source has set up and driven 1,000's of various rigs so he has many to use as a comparison.

Note II.... Don't shoot "me", I'm just the messenger. :7)

Sorry, this strikes a sore spot with me, my comments aren't personal here. It seems to be along the lines of politicians evaluating and making decisions on scientific issues.

These are claims and opinions, not evidence, no matter how much experience he has setting up tow rigs. Does he have any studies or data other than anecdotal evidence? Does this individual have any engineering degrees to properly evaluate these designs? Has he done failure analysis of the rigs that have failed? So he's setup and driven 1000's of rigs, but I can guarantee he does not have the volume of miles driven (towing) these vehicles that the legions of people posting their findings on the internet. Heck I have 1000 times more experience driving my 4Runner and Bigfoot trailer than he does. I've worked at an automotive manufacturer (disclaimer: I work in computers and am a fairly accomplished gear head hobbyist, not a degreed automotive engineer) and spoken with engineers and have a much more mature view of amateur armchair engineering than I did in the past. *Most* times, the OEM knows best, and in this day and age, they typically have truckloads of analysis and data to support design decisions.

I've had discussions with engineers about issues I thought should have been changed, designed differently, and most discussions went like one of these:

me: You shoulda done X to this part
engineer: We tried that. Didn't work, wasn't as strong as you'd think.

me: How did you end up with *that* design?
engineer: After trying and failing at 100 other designs.

me: You shoulda done Y to this exhaust component
engineer: We did analysis for something similar, it didn't stand up to the heat.

me: You shoulda tried bracing component Z
engineer: It makes it too stiff, vibration tore everything apart at the welds, it needs to give somewhere

me: Why did you release the engine with that known horrible component that fails early and often?
engineer: We know about it. Last minute decision made by bean counters who didn't listen to engineers. To correct it, follow these steps..

Some claims you can find good evidence of
-Toyota sold almost a million 4th gen 4Runners in the US
-The 4th gen 4Runner won safety awards and has stellar reliability and quality reviews from any source you can find
-The 4Runner has a very similar design in suspension/frame/hitch to Land Cruisers, Sequoias, Tacomas, Tundras, putting this design probably in use in over several million vehicles over the globe

Despite this data (and lack of failure data, TSB's or recalls), your source might be the only individual I've found overly critical of the 4Runner for this purpose. Besides that and the lack of legions of farmers using MB/Buick/GM suv's to tow their hay, horses and hogs around... you'll excuse me if I completely ignore the blanket statement that the 4Runner is a poor TV </snark>

Now - back to non-snark - if I found this individual had engineering background and education I'd give his conclusion more credence. I'd accept his estimation as fact if he had in fact evaluated, analyzed, repaired and documented more than 25 4Runners exhibiting failures after thousands of miles towing trailers, as well as evaluating them after thousands of miles towing in a upgraded/repaired state.

I'm the last person to suggest the 4Runner be used as a dedicated tow rig; it's a compromise in 20 directions because most folks can't afford 20 different purpose built vehicles. I just think it's a bit ludicrous to state it's a poor tow vehicle.

[smeagol]

Originally Posted by War Eagle

Brian, I'll admit up front that I'm a big diesel fan - can't beat the combination of torque, fuel mileage and engine longevity. There's a reason why virtually every 18-wheelers on the road is running on diesel. And when you get right down to it, those tractors are built for one main purpose - pulling trailers. Biggest problem today is the high price the large petroleum companies are wringing out of long-haul truckers for diesel because they know those truckers don't have a choice. But even at the higher price, it still usually pencils out on fuel economy, so it's like getting the extra torque for towing at no extra cost. Auto websites and magazines are saying GM, Toyota and Nissan will all be offering diesel engines (5.0L?) in their Colorado (reintroduced), Tundra and Titan pickups over the next few years. And I can't believe Ford doesn't have something similar on the drawing board (hopefully for the reintroduction of an up-sized Ranger). So don't simply dismiss diesel. Check into it, and if it makes sense to you, then you can use your current down time now to try to convince your wife.

Yep, I'm a turbo diesel lover. In the other post I just made, the OEM I worked at was a diesel manufacturer (<ahem> go look under your hood). Unfortunately, I haven't found the combination of reliability, quality, and utility that I'm looking for. The newer ones (subject to more stringent emissions) seem to be of lower quality, requiring more maintenance, and more expensive overall. The engines I like never came in the vehicles I want, or weren't available in passenger vehicles period I do keep browsing for Excursions for sale, however they are nearly buses, and they are blue oval

On paper, the new Jeep GC diesel would be perfect for my purposes; however the price gives me seizures, and there's a lot of unproven components there. Maybe I'll look upon it differently when some folks cross the 200k mileage range and some low mile used ones are available in a few years...

I am keen to see what the 5.0L Cummins ends up in; however it seems like it is relatively thirsty as far as diesels go, and I'm guessing I won't be able to purchase a vehicle with that engine that costs under $40k.

[MC1]

Originally Posted by smeagol

Sorry, this strikes a sore spot with me, my comments aren't personal here.

No need to be sorry about anything Brian. You are entitled to an opinion, just like anyone else. Hopefully you can find other sources of information to assist you in getting answers or suggestions that will get you happier down the road.

Best of luck with your towing, tow vehicle, and trailer venture.

[smeagol]

Originally Posted by MC1

No need to be sorry about anything Brian. You are entitled to an opinion, just like anyone else. Hopefully you can find other sources of information to assist you in getting answers or suggestions that will get you happier down the road.

Best of luck with your towing, tow vehicle, and trailer venture.

Thanks - and I do appreciate the input, as well as the experiences from the other forum.

[smeagol]

Originally Posted by tractors1

We settled on a Escape 21 after almost a year of shopping and test towing other trailers with a Taco V6 4dr 4WD long bed rated at 6400 lbs towing. Looked at all the glass trailers as a move up from a Casita 17LD and decided the others were either heavier, too wide, or both when a no-crawl-over bed was present. The Escape Forum (Escapeforum.org) has posts with the same tows getting 14-18 mpg. The 21 was just introduced last year and production for the rest of this year is booked already, same for their new double axle 5th wheel (old one was single axle.)

Charlie Y

What was your reasoning for the 21 over the 5.0TA?

The 5th wheel setup appeals to me for a couple big reasons.

From most accounts, they seem to be very aerodynamic, yielding good fuel economy (at least compared to similar bumper pull configurations).

Everyone who has towed both bumper & 5th wheel swears by 5th wheel for ease of towing. Being able to enjoy the ride and 'forget' about the trailer out back, and having the wife be able to drive without hesitation.. I wish I could test drive one of these rigs for a seat of the pants test.

Of course, I might lament the 'loss' of the bed, and going from a 4Runner to a smaller cab Tacoma might be the other side of the coin.

[honda03842]

Brian,

I certainly can understand your desire to maximize your trailer and tow vehicle, as well as I understand your wife's position.

For most people the savings to be had via a few more miles per gallon or a few more square feet are trivial compared to the enjoyment of using the equipment you have. So few people travel enough to justify the time and effort required to change.

We have now made 7 loops of the USA in three different RVs. I loved each of RVs though not as much as the travel.

We wish you well in your search. and even more, we wish you safe and joyful travels.

[smeagol]

Originally Posted by honda03842

Brian,

I certainly can understand your desire to maximize your trailer and tow vehicle, as well as I understand your wife's position.

For most people the savings to be had via a few more miles per gallon or a few more square feet are trivial compared to the enjoyment of using the equipment you have. So few people travel enough to justify the time and effort required to change.

We have now made 7 loops of the USA in three different RVs. I loved each of RVs though not as much as the travel.

We wish you well in your search. and even more, we wish you safe and joyful travels.

Thanks for the well wishes. I am sure I'm spending a lot of time planning and worrying and thinking about such changes as I'm just getting cabin fever and getting antsy before the new baby is able to go on some trips

[Bob Miller]

Here's another 19' Bigfoot with better interior pics.
Molded Fiberglass Trailers | Fiberglass RV's For Sale

[honda03842]

Brian, I bet your youngest adapts the fastest. In our travels we have met people who travel with children and home school them, something I wish existed when I was a child. The ability not to be tied to the pace of a classroom must be fantastic.

We had dinner with a former Canadian school teacher who taught advanced math at the high school level since 1988 via the internet or some facsimile.

She related in Canada there are many small high schools that can not have a broad range of special and advanced courses. They solve this via the Internet.