Count the cost(and the intent) - Page 5 - Fiberglass RV


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Old 12-23-2016, 07:27 AM   #57
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Count the cost(and the intent)

I agree that preservation is primary in federal national parks, monuments, and wilderness areas, evidenced by the very restrictive rules regarding recreational use. Other land designations are less centered on preservation- forests, BLM, and recreation areas. They emphasize "mixed use," recreation being one.

But state parks (the subject of this thread) evolved later and many (not all) were developed with recreational use as the primary goal, with preservation important but secondary.

While preservation arguably benefits all, recreation mainly benefits those who actually use the park. Of course, everyone is a potential user, which is why I argue that land acquisition and capital development should be a shared expense through taxes, while operations should be funded by users through access fees.

Some states clearly operate more efficiently than others. That data needs to be studied and brought to the attention of voters and politicians in states that are operating inefficiently. Bureaucracies tend to grow and become less efficient over time. That is not to say the people working in those bureaucracies are bad people; 'tis the nature of the beast. State legislatures are the place where change happens. They can set user fees based on efficient operation and demand that state parks operate within those efficiencies.

Many state parks have public "Friends of ... " groups. That might be a ground-level place to get involved and work for changes if you feel your state is losing its state park treasures.
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Old 12-23-2016, 08:01 AM   #58
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Bureaucracies in my part of the country--have been constantly downsizing. This makes it even harder to provide the services that "the public" wants.

For example, our local Forest Service used to employ 100+ people in the summer--mid 1980s. They were combined with another district that hired the same and now the combined, larger land based office hires half that many folks.

I have heard the our state parks--note the word state, have emphasized hiring law enforcement folks which is spendier than non-gun carrying employees. That, plus the legislature's mandate of our parks being self sufficient has raised our prices.

My own beef is having to make reservations to get a spot in quite a few of our parks. I am a spontaneous person and like to just take off. I can't do that and have a spot at our more popular areas.

Because I live in a place where people come to camp, and have tromped around in the woods for years, I kind of like to camp near towns. That seems kind of strange, but I guess we like to go to different kinds of places than where we live?
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Old 12-23-2016, 09:13 AM   #59
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I too believe in the use of tax dollars to support , preserve and maintain our National Parks , State Parks and wilderness areas but I am neither a socialist or a enviromentalist. I support these things because I was taught and believe it is the right thing to do.
I claim no moral superiority for my stance on this issue
.
I also read / interpret the original mission statements for our National Parks and wilderness area differently than some.
National Parks were never intended to be shrines to be worshipped from a far. The notion that you can lock up our natural treasures like a painting in a vault , where no one can ever view or experience it makes no sense to me


Lower fees for seniors were instituted for a practical / financial reasons. Many of our parks sat empty outside of the summer / tourist season or on weekends. Seniors are normally not tied down by work or the school year as the younger generation so they can be more flexible in their travel plans. Trying to alleviate over crowding in our parks seems like a reasonable goal to me.
When camping at the State Parks in my area , I pay the same fee as everyone , I get no SPECIAL privilege.

Preserving every tree in the forest because it is old, does not benefit the forest , wildlife or make economic sense . There are environmental and economic gains when forests are subject to proper selective harvesting. Many parks & wilderness area would be closed or no longer exist , if not for the revenue they receive from logging.

My concern is that politicians who pander to the "NO TAX" or the "What's in it for me " crowd would sell off our National & State Parks for a one time gain for the few but with a long term loss for the many. No state has successfully funded its' park system through user fees alone. We need a compromise funding mechanism , which is impossible in today's political climate . Raising State Park camping / visitor fees to such an exorbitant level as Wisconsin has done , does little to preserve or keep the parks open and is only hastening their demise.

MERRY CHRISTMAS







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Old 12-23-2016, 12:01 PM   #60
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At 3 AM I got an e-mail for this thread from Raz...but it has never shown up IN the thread. What happened?


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Old 12-23-2016, 12:12 PM   #61
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Is the ultimate cost saving decision yet to be made??

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Old 12-23-2016, 12:25 PM   #62
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At 3 AM I got an e-mail for this thread from Raz...but it has never shown up IN the thread. What happened?


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No email from me.
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Old 12-23-2016, 03:40 PM   #63
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I consider myself to be an environmentalist. I'm proud to support the institutions and policy makers who share my views. I'm happy to claim both moral and intellectual superiority.
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Old 12-23-2016, 04:31 PM   #64
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I consider myself to be an environmentalist. I'm proud to support the institutions and policy makers who share my views. I'm happy to claim both moral and intellectual superiority.
Do you know people who are not proud to support those who agree with them ???

I am an environmental steward as well, but I bet we differ some...especially on that moral and intellectual superiority thingy.

( My Boss gave us both authority and responsibility over the Earth)
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Old 12-23-2016, 05:38 PM   #65
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Do you know people who are not proud to support those who agree with them ???

I am an environmental steward as well, but I bet we differ some...especially on that moral and intellectual superiority thingy.

( My Boss gave us both authority and responsibility over the Earth)
It's easy to win a debate when the opposing party is in full agreement with you.
I've made enough mistakes in my life to realize that I am neither morally or intellectually superior to any man / woman.
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Old 12-23-2016, 05:48 PM   #66
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You guys are too hard on yourselves!
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Old 12-23-2016, 05:54 PM   #67
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Sorry, Raz! It was 3 AM after all...insomnia is a heckuva thing!


HAPPY FESTIVUS, ALL!


This year we're having the Festivus Spanish Rice--for no great reason except that my recipe calls for several vegetables, so it's a complete meal. Paul's busy making it right now! The girls are having Festivus naps before dinner.


BEST
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Old 12-23-2016, 08:03 PM   #68
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I'm humble. I would be the first to admit to my faults... if I had any.

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Old 12-24-2016, 07:22 AM   #69
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Just want you all to know that I'm the most humble person I know--and I'm very, very proud of my humility!


Floyd--Silent Running. One of the saddest movies I've ever seen. A heckuva thing to do with Earth's forests ...and pretty bad for camping, since the towing to get there is a bear! Even if you could drive your El Dorado to the moon...they were a lot further out than that!
You'd need a TRILLION dollars worth of ethyl gas!


Merry CHRISTMAS EVE TO ALL--
HAPPY HOLIDAYS! FROELICHE WEINACHTEN! JOYOUX NOEL!
(correct spelling above seems to be optional...)
i
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Old 01-01-2017, 03:41 PM   #70
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We look forward to the rallies every year and our favorites often involve friends to our north.
We are now considering a fun trip this Spring to Wisconsin where the rally is in a beautiful place. When considering our visit...

At first glance we are up to $125 for four nights. for a site valued at $13 per night. (assuming that the reservation fee is not per night)

I could not find it on the fee schedule but the last time I went to a Wisconsin Park they charged a $2 per night additional fee for out of state campers.

They also now charge 5% sales tax on all prices, even stickers, which they insist be permanently attached to to my vehicle. There is also an extra $10 fee for stickers for out of state buyers.

.The last two Wisconsin state parks that we stayed in showed no evidence of Mosquito mitigation.
All-in I am looking at possibly as much as $140 dollars for four night's stay with electricity only. Of course that yearly pass is really only good for a few months.
They also charge $25 for a trailpass for bicycling.($50 if we both ride)
A yearly trail pass is a separate fee from a park pass.
All of these fees have proposed increases and are expected to rise.
Wisconsin public lands have effectively been made off limits to out of state visitors. It could be worse, you could visit Michigan.
In both of these states, many private campgrounds offer better facilities and better values without the ridiculous arcane fee schedules.

If we would go to Wisconsin for one day to ride a bike path and stay overnight at a state park(with the hope of returning)the cost would be over $115.
While a parkpass does not allow trail access, you must also have one to park at the trailhead... in addition to the trailpass.

I have used conservative figures, since I found articles which reflected higher fees in some cases. If we decide to go to a place where we are welcomed by friends but shunned by the host state, I will report back on the actual figures upon my return.
We no longer go to Wisconsin because of their fees. We used to go about every other year when our daughter lived there, but when we had to pay $5 more for a day pass than residents to go to a state park we decided no more. It was about $15 for the day if I remember correctly. Camping a whole lot more. They are a very anti-tourism state with their high fuel costs usually about 20 cents more than neighboring states and park fees. We can camp in a private park for half of a state park and have full hookups and security. That is what we did last year when we went through WI to see the USS Cobia Museum. In TN the state park entry fee was free when we went and camping was $25.
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