Decided to order the Oliver

[Steve Outlaw]

I don't believe anyone's Oliver tongue wt will exceed 600 pounds. Our Oliver has got to be the heaviest one in existence at over 6000 lb ready to camp. Yet my weighed tongue was 535 lbs. I had them build an extra 24" of tongue so it is longer and therefore creates some reduction in weight. But it also has 200 lbs of genny and basket sitting on it in addition to two 30 lb propane tanks. I thought I was going to need a weight distribution hitch, but would that not effectively make the tongue even lighter? It's not even 10% now. Don't misunderstand, the trailer pulls fine and I've not had any sway issues so I'm not too concerned, just wondering if anyone had any thoughts that I'm possibly overlooking.

[Ron Merritt]

Proof is in the pudding I guess. If you are happy with the tow, then that is all that matters.

I am surprised though that it behaves well with less than 10% tongue weight. Although adding 24" to the tongue is quite a lot! Maybe the cantilever has something to do with it.

So that 535lbs includes the weight of your generator?

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Cathi

If anyone knows where I would read about real-world experience in winter in an Oliver, please advise. I have looked and asked. That is a valid question for a trailer said to be four-season. I am sure there are folks out there who know.

Hi Cathi,

Since none of the big Ollies have gone through a winter, that probably explains the silence there. I own a 6 1/2 yr old 17' Ollie and have enjoyed it for 83,000+ miles so far. While I prefer nicer weather, I have had a bit of cold weather time. My unit is not as well insulated as the newer ones, however, I did install a bilge heater between the two shells which comes on as the air between them goes below 40 degrees. The heater comes on and a small fan blows to heat the air in the back section of the trailer between the shells, where critical water items can be found, heating the air to 50 degrees. This not only protects critical items from freezing but it also help prevent frozen toe syndrome during any late night walks to the loo.

I personally feel comfortable with this trailer into the twenties and brief excursion into the teens, but have discovered that 8 degrees with a wind chill of 6 below zero for four days stopped the water from flowing to the bathroom or galley sink. It took a ceramic heater next to the water pump about 12 hours to get water to the galley.

Even the cabin I was parked next to had no water at those temps. My dog, Oscar, swore he'd disown me if I took him out to do his business in 6 degree below chill again. So while I plan to avoid it if at all possible, sometimes "Stuff Happens" and you simply deal with it as best as you can.

Hope this helps some,

Pete

Ps. The newer, bigger Oliver's do have a more sophisticated insulation and they also offer an optional furnace vent opening between the shells that would put out a higher volume of warm air than my small bilge heater. I think it would fair better than my older model in severe frigid temps.

[Cathi]

Rob, I saw your other post on the towing capacity. We do use a WDH. It looks as if one cannot be used with the Oliver but I take it that it can.

By the way, the F-150 Eco boost is now on the 2015 Ford Expedition, I hear, for anyone's interest.

Steve, you might want to get the tongue weight up however you can do it and try to at least meet that 10%. As for the 24" which is perhaps lowering it, I understood that you should be as close to the TV as possible. I don't know what your reasoning was on that. Maybe you needed the space for something.

[Cathi]

Originally Posted by Pete

Hi Cathi,

Since none of the big Ollies have gone through a winter, that probably explains the silence there. I own a 6 1/2 yr old 17' Ollie and have enjoyed it for 83,000+ miles so far. While I prefer nicer weather, I have had a bit of cold weather time. My unit is not as well insulated as the newer ones, however, I did install a bilge heater between the two shells which comes on as the air between them goes below 40 degrees. The heater comes on and a small fan blows to heat the air in the back section of the trailer between the shells, where critical water items can be found, heating the air to 50 degrees. This not only protects critical items from freezing but it also help prevent frozen toe syndrome during any late night walks to the loo.

I personally feel comfortable with this trailer into the twenties and brief excursion into the teens, but have discovered that 8 degrees with a wind chill of 6 below zero for four days stopped the water from flowing to the bathroom or galley sink. It took a ceramic heater next to the water pump about 12 hours to get water to the galley.

Even the cabin I was parked next to had no water at those temps. My dog, Oscar, swore he'd disown me if I took him out to do his business in 6 degree below chill again. So while I plan to avoid it if at all possible, sometimes "Stuff Happens" and you simply deal with it as best as you can.

Hope this helps some,

Pete

Ps. The newer, bigger Oliver's do have a more sophisticated insulation and they also offer an optional furnace vent opening between the shells that would put out a higher volume of warm air than my small bilge heater. I think it would fair better than my older model in severe frigid temps.

Thanks, Pete! Wow, 83,000. That's a big number.

I don't even know what a bilge heater is but from what you say, sounds helpful but perhaps not needed now in an Oliver with furnace venting. You were in such an extreme. I'm surprised the ceramic heater did not work faster. I take it that the Oliver insulation now is a change from the material you have.

[Rob Outlaw]

Ron Just for the record, likewise I will at least initially not use a WDH given what other owners of the newer Elite II claim with towing experiences. I mainly brought this up because so many "undersize" (according to my definition) their TV because they think they are going to save 2-3 MPG by using the smallest TV they can get away with. Curiously our second car a 2011 Subaru OB 4 Cyl, only gets marginally better gas mileage around town especially during the winter months compared to our F150 EB, it is better, but not enough to get excited about. Not that I would tow an Oliver with the Subie, heck I didn't even feel comfortable thinking about using it to tow our T@b when we had it.

The point is the best way we conserve gas is to not use darn things when its unnecessary. Both my wife and I either bike or walk to do the lions share of our errands and as such our 2011 OB only has 24K miles on it, our F150 about half that but it has done quite a few cross country and or towing road trips.

For those following this thread and who have an interest in the Oliver, they are now supplying the Anderson WDH for those who want it.

rob

[Rob Outlaw]

Perhaps I am missing something here but its my understanding a 1/2 ton is 1000 lbs and 3/4 ton is 1500 lbs and believe the numbers to represent the load carry capacity of each of these trucks. IOW's its not 1500 and 3000 lbs respectively. In either case for towing purposes I don't see this having any significant effect. 420 lbs on the TT tongue even though its leverage out at the hitch is well under specification for a half ton truck.

rob

Originally Posted by minke

... the ½ ton pickup may have a non-towing payload of maybe 1,500 pounds while the ¾ ton pickup may be nearly twice that. I haven't checked the numbers in a long time but think I've got it right.

[Ron Merritt]

The specs are all over the place these days. You really need to look at the truck you are interested in to get payload and allowable tongue weights.

I would like to better understand how the Oliver tows so well with a light tongue weight. It's a good thing actually, as it allows SUV owners to realistically consider towing these trailers.

The Anderson is a neat hitch. If I needed WD or sway control, it's definately the one I'd want. There is a youtube video showing using it with an Airstream and the redesigned Silverado/Sierra. The sway control is actually built into the hitch ball. The WD part is with the chains attached to the trailer tongue.

Since it's easy to install, you can always decide later to get one and install it yourself. Not really a big deal. If I go with a smaller truck, I may end up needing to do that.

[minke]

Originally Posted by Rob Outlaw

Perhaps I am missing something here but its my understanding a 1/2 ton is 1000 lbs and 3/4 ton is 1500 lbs and believe the numbers to represent the load carry capacity of each of these trucks. IOW's its not 1500 and 3000 lbs respectively. In either case for towing purposes I don't see this having any significant effect. 420 lbs on the TT tongue even though its leverage out at the hitch is well under specification for a half ton truck.

rob

I believe that the labels ½ ton and ¾ ton once had literal meaning. That could have been about the time of the Peloponnesian War I just checked and my ¾ ton pickup has a "max. payload" of 2,710 pounds. The footnote for "max. payload" says "... maximum allowable weight of people, cargo, and body equipment and is reduced by optional equipment weight."

The designer/builder of my boat trailer said that with the boat loaded halfway between min & max my tongue weight should be ~800 pounds. If my "max. payload" were say 1,500 pounds then my wife, myself, and 35 gallons of gasoline (500 pounds) and the tongue weight (800) would leave 200 pounds for cargo in the bed or cabin. Unfortunately my topper weighs 200 pounds. Add 10 gallons of water, a toolbox, and 2 spare toothbrushes and you are overloaded. I like to carry my dinghy (~130 pounds with gear). It just goes on.

So yes, for strictly towing purposes you are right. If your trailer contains everything you need then "max. payload" is merely noise for you.

[Rob Outlaw]

As I understand it the tongue weight of the Oliver is 10% of the total dry weight of the trailer which to my knowledge is just about ideal, no?

Regardless it has also been a mystery to me how this thing tows so well without a WDH, but after touring the factory and seeing first hand what that frame and massive set of wheels look like (photos really don't do it justice) I believe the answer came to me. To the best of my knowledge no other TT company installs such a serious set of wheels/tires at this size and I believe this is the major component of why the Oliver apparently tracks so well. Those tandem axels having a larger center point to center point (axel hub to axel hub) create a more stable package not unlike a longer wheelbase car or truck. Does this make sense?

This is not to discount the construction method where the frame really becomes integral with the FG trailer itself but to my way of thinking its those wheels that really come into play here.

Its funny too, on our way back from TN factory tour we stopped at a campground on the Missouri River in ND for the evening. There were a lot of very large 5th wheels that came in to camp as well. And I have to say after seeing the Oliver frame and wheel set those 5th wheels with their relatively tiny 14" wheels (I think) and tires looked absolutely silly to us. The disconnect in size between the huge camper and small wheels looked almost cartoonish.

No doubt I will be corrected if incorrect on this assumption.

[Steve Outlaw]

Originally Posted by minke

...If my "max. payload" were say 1,500 pounds then my wife, myself, and 35 gallons of gasoline (500 pounds)...

Alan, you may actually be better off than you think. Your listed "maximum payload" generally does NOT include the driver and a full tank of gas. So, depending on what your wife weighs, that 500 pounds could be significantly reduced.

[minke]

Originally Posted by Steve Outlaw

Alan, you may actually be better off than you think. Your listed "maximum payload" generally does NOT include the driver and a full tank of gas. So, depending on what your wife weighs, that 500 pounds could be significantly reduced.

Ethereal comes to mind. And my weight of course doesn't matter.

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by Cathi

That does not mean that I would even think of towing the 23' Oliver without a more powerful (read gas-guzzling) TV. The best mpg I have seen for a suitable tow vehicle is 17/20 with, I can only guess, 14 or so perhaps for towing. That is not impossible. We get 17 towing now. It's all a consideration.

I would want to know much more about the Oliver as well as the TVs. No interest in pick-ups, by the way, only enclosed vehicles. We all have our likes.

Each party makes their own discussions as to what trailer they want and feel they need in regards to size, same as tow vehicles.

Anyone who knows me knows I LOVE the Escapes but have to admit if I was looking for a trailer for winter camping & could afford it my eyes would take a very serious look at the Bigfoot and/or the Oliver which due to their design/construction and by each manufactures own accounts are better suited for it. Tammy confirmed to a member here very recently that Escape even with the thermal package added is best suited for what Escape apparently called "shoulder season" camping. If you search you will find a recent thread of that name which included Escapes response to the question of whether or not the trailer would suit the potential buyers needs for the type of cold weather camping they were wanting to do. I do btw have some first hand knowledge of a Bigfoots ability to be camped in during "real" winter weather. Having seen an Oliver a few years ago I kind of wish I could say the same about it

As far as needing a "gas-guzzlng" TV to pull an Oliver or a Bigfoot it all depends on what year of vehicle &/or make you are talking about. Lots of changes in recent years in the regards to just how much a vehicle with lots of towing capacity consumes in regards to gas. For example when I switched from a 7 year old 4 cyl to towing with a 3 year old V6 I only lost 1 mpg when towing (now get on average - 17mpg) - thats it - but I gained double the tow capacity and now have 3000lbs of towing cap in reserve rather than only 300lbs in reserve I had with the 4 cyl. As a bonus I am actually getting better gas milage when not towing and as I am not towing more than I am towing the 1 mpg loss when towing does not hurt my pocket book at all in a years worth of driving. If I was to have purchased a brand new version of my new to me tow vehicle my gas milage when towing would have actually improved over what I was getting with the smaller tow vehicle. My brother recently down graded from what many would have called a "real big gas guzzling truck" of about 6 years of age to a newer smaller version but still with the same or more power and he is getting 8 mpg better MPG's than I do when towing even though he is pulling a boat that weighs almost twice what my trailer does (but he still also has another 3000lbs of unused towing cap). Go figure.

Don't want a truck thats fine as there are other options out there as well that will give you what many here would say is really good MPG's when towing. The VW Touareg which is popular with the Airstream crowed and I saw one pulling a large Bigfoot at a fiberglass rally a couple of years ago is rated to pull 7716lbs and it gets 8.8L/100km which works out to 26.73 US MPG on the highway..... so even if you loose a few mpgs while towing thats not what I would call a gas guzzler & it sure as heck isn't a truck.

I suspect the old argument of not being willing to pay for the gas for a tow vehicle that has the capacity to safely pull a heavier trailer such as an Oliver or Bigfoot is an argument that may be quickly heading the way of the dodo bird.

Regardless it is a personal decision. If someone has the funds to purchase the trailer of their dreams & the tug to go with it, even if its a different choose than what I would make, all I can say is, I wish I was in the same position to be able to make such chooses!

[steve dunham]

Originally Posted by Steve Outlaw

Alan, you may actually be better off than you think. Your listed "maximum payload" generally does NOT include the driver and a full tank of gas. So, depending on what your wife weighs, that 500 pounds could be significantly reduced.

The listed payload on my 1/2 ton truck has a built in allowance for the driver (150 Lbs) and for a full tank of fuel. The listed payload is for additional passengers beyond the driver ,cargo ,additional options and the tongue weight of the trailer. I have a fiberglass topper on my truck so the weight of the topper is subtracted from the payload IE 1450 Lbs payload minus 150 Lbs for the topper =1300 Lbs remaining payload. The truck also is rated for 8550 Lbs towing capacity but requires a WDC when the trailer weight exceeds 5000 Lbs. or the tongue weight exceeds 500 Lbs .I have considers buying a 3/4 ton truck the next time around not for the increased towing capacity but to increase my allowable payload. Having to constantly worry about what I pack for a long trip so that I don't exceed my rated payload weight ,to me is a real PITA

[minke]

Originally Posted by steve dunham

The listed payload on my 1/2 ton truck has a built in allowance for the driver (150 Lbs) and for a full tank of fuel. ...

My geriatric memory is struggling here. IIRC a few years ago there emerged an ISO standard for exactly these measurements. A new requirement included actually counting the bumpers weight as part of the truck instead of as an accessory. (Maybe only the rear bumper was excluded??) After a while Chrysler Corp. agreed to be held to the standard. Within the last year or two GM and Ford agreed. Anyone here know more than I do??

Perhaps your truck falls under the new standard.

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by minke

My geriatric memory is struggling here. IIRC a few years ago there emerged an ISO standard for exactly these measurements. A new requirement included actually counting the bumpers weight as part of the truck instead of as an accessory. (Maybe only the rear bumper was excluded??) After a while Chrysler Corp. agreed to be held to the standard. Within the last year or two GM and Ford agreed. Anyone here know more than I do??

Perhaps your truck falls under the new standard.

All I can tell you is while shopping for a new vehicle last year they were all different in regards to what is and is not including in the payload.... best to read the fine print from each manufacturer in that regard!

[Timber Wolf]

Originally Posted by Rob Outlaw

To the best of my knowledge no other TT company installs such a serious set of wheels/tires at this size and I believe this is the major component of why the Oliver apparently tracks so well. Those tandem axels having a larger center point to center point (axle hub to axle hub) create a more stable package not unlike a longer wheelbase car or truck. Does this make sense?

This makes perfect sense, and brings up a point I think I missed in my earlier discussion of weight. That is the Oliver has two axles, the Scamp, Casita, & Egg only one. That extra axle is a lot of weight, although surprisingly the Escape 21 is also a two axle rig and comes in around the same "per foot" figure as the single axle trailers. Of course if the weight is going into the right places, and it appears that it does, than Oliver is simply building a more substantial product. One more thought that has been discussed in this forum is that weight is less important than aerodynamics. Maybe the Oliver is so smooth that the weight does not matter!

[Cathi]

Originally Posted by steve dunham

The listed payload on my 1/2 ton truck has a built in allowance for the driver (150 Lbs) and for a full tank of fuel. The listed payload is for additional passengers beyond the driver ,cargo ,additional options and the tongue weight of the trailer. I have a fiberglass topper on my truck so the weight of the topper is subtracted from the payload IE 1450 Lbs payload minus 150 Lbs for the topper =1300 Lbs remaining payload. The truck also is rated for 8550 Lbs towing capacity but requires a WDC when the trailer weight exceeds 5000 Lbs. or the tongue weight exceeds 500 Lbs .I have considers buying a 3/4 ton truck the next time around not for the increased towing capacity but to increase my allowable payload. Having to constantly worry about what I pack for a long trip so that I don't exceed my rated payload weight ,to me is a real PITA

Steve, good for you for knowing all of your numbers. There is no way I would want to pick up a trailer and not know in advance the GVWR, GCWR, what the tongue weight should be and more so that the numbers are merely being confirmed at scales, with no surprises. Every manufacturer has a different way of calculating the allowances, it seems. It would be nice for you to have that cushion in your TV. We have such a cushion with no chance we will get to the max and I always appreciate that. No doubt that would benefit you.

[Cathi]

Originally Posted by minke

I believe that the labels ½ ton and ¾ ton once had literal meaning. That could have been about the time of the Peloponnesian War I just checked and my ¾ ton pickup has a "max. payload" of 2,710 pounds. The footnote for "max. payload" says "... maximum allowable weight of people, cargo, and body equipment and is reduced by optional equipment weight."

The designer/builder of my boat trailer said that with the boat loaded halfway between min & max my tongue weight should be ~800 pounds. If my "max. payload" were say 1,500 pounds then my wife, myself, and 35 gallons of gasoline (500 pounds) and the tongue weight (800) would leave 200 pounds for cargo in the bed or cabin. Unfortunately my topper weighs 200 pounds. Add 10 gallons of water, a toolbox, and 2 spare toothbrushes and you are overloaded. I like to carry my dinghy (~130 pounds with gear). It just goes on.

So yes, for strictly towing purposes you are right. If your trailer contains everything you need then "max. payload" is merely noise for you.

Yes, 1/2 and 3/4 ton are nothing but a name. As you well know, people have to look at their own vehicle's requirements and allowances and will no doubt find some surprises. I figure overloading is common when you consider what you read regarding the limits.

[Cathi]

Originally Posted by Carol H

As far as needing a "gas-guzzlng" TV to pull an Oliver or a Bigfoot it all depends on what year of vehicle &/or make you are talking about. Lots of changes in recent years in the regards to just how much a vehicle with lots of towing capacity consumes in regards to gas. For example when I switched from a 7 year old 4 cyl to towing with a 3 year old V6 I only lost 1 mpg when towing (now get on average - 17mpg) - thats it - but I gained double the tow capacity and now have 3000lbs of towing cap in reserve rather than only 300lbs in reserve I had with the 4 cyl. As a bonus I am actually getting better gas milage when not towing and as I am not towing more than I am towing the 1 mpg loss when towing does not hurt my pocket book at all in a years worth of driving. If I was to have purchased a brand new version of my new to me tow vehicle my gas milage when towing would have actually improved over what I was getting with the smaller tow vehicle. My brother recently down graded from what many would have called a "real big gas guzzling truck" of about 6 years of age to a newer smaller version but still with the same or more power and he is getting 8 mpg better MPG's than I do when towing even though he is pulling a boat that weighs almost twice what my trailer does (but he still also has another 3000lbs of unused towing cap). Go figure.

Don't want a truck thats fine as there are other options out there as well that will give you what many here would say is really good MPG's when towing. The VW Touareg which is popular with the Airstream crowed and I saw one pulling a large Bigfoot at a fiberglass rally a couple of years ago is rated to pull 7716lbs and it gets 8.8L/100km which works out to 26.73 US MPG on the highway..... so even if you loose a few mpgs while towing thats not what I would call a gas guzzler & it sure as heck isn't a truck.

I suspect the old argument of not being willing to pay for the gas for a tow vehicle that has the capacity to safely pull a heavier trailer such as an Oliver or Bigfoot is an argument that may be quickly heading the way of the dodo bird.

Carol, I have been looking at that very thing regarding the gas mileage. I mentioned the Expedition because the major change of using the V6 Ecoboost means that the mpg has gone up quite a bit and yet the towing capacity is good and torque and horsepower improved.

I am sure that towing overweight has not nearly gone the way of the dodo bird, however. How many people do you know who have been to scales and know their towing numbers except maybe one, towing capacity, which can be very misleading.

I know all about the Escape and it is not said to be four-season. Of course, they are in Canada and maybe they are not about to claim that an Escape can be used in winter. There are people who would call weather "winter" in the southern half of the U.S. And some of us would consider it mild weather. They would say that they have camped in winter but not necessarily someone else's idea of it. I am told that the makers of Oliver who are saying it is four-season do not camp, so I am wondering what owners have found in that regard.

Have you had a Bigfoot? I know they are good in cold weather. I don't think they are making any of the smaller ones now. Can you compare their winter use to an Oliver as far as any of the features?