Do batteries outgas when used? - Page 4 - Fiberglass RV


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Old 06-12-2016, 01:57 PM   #43
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Why would you create a potential overload (high resistance/heat) area in your battery lead wiring by using a #6 wire/fuse holder lead "Soldered To The Large Wire" (your words) in your battery system instead of matching the wire gauge for your fuse holder to the "Larger" gauge wire already installed in the battery lead in your trailer?

You are defeating the "Proper Operation" of the fuse you have installed to protect you battery system with different gauge wires on the lead. Yes I know you said it's only a few inches however it appears to be right at the battery and next to the wood frame.
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Old 06-12-2016, 04:32 PM   #44
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#6...

I used #6 simply because I had a large supply of it on hand...it is way larger than needed (I think BF used #10 over the same distance)....from what I've read the only downside to using oversize wire is weight and cost.

I did not use the same size wire fuse holder as this was going to be a much bigger unit that require much larger fuses (I wanted to keep the selection of fuses I carry all the same holder size for obvious reasons)

I don't beleive I have created a resistance....the fuse holder is rated for 50A...I'm using a 20A fuse in it. If 200A flowed through that wire (probably capable of doing so given it's size) I would agree but that simply is not or ever will be the case.

I may be missing something...I'm not an electrician....but I showed my system to a couple of electrician friends of mine and they did not raise any red flags.
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Old 06-12-2016, 04:48 PM   #45
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I don't beleive I have created a resistance...
Nope, you're fine. Too big in my opinion Raz
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Old 06-12-2016, 05:52 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by gordon2 View Post
The "master battery fuse" should be included in all cases, and as close to the battery terminal as possible.

Scamp installed my master battery fuse a full 10 inches from the battery terminal.. thats ten inches of wire that could short out and burn or spark.
I understand the need for a fuse as close as possible from the source, but I wouldn't be too concerned about something like 10" between the battery and the main fuse, if everything else is installed properly.

I haven't started to work on my electrical system yet but my plans are pretty much all laid out. My battery will be inside the trailer, in a sealed box, with a proper outside vent. Now way I'm gonna put a fuse inside this battery box. It will be outside the battery box, after maybe 1 foot or so of wire. This "unprotected" length of wire will exit the box through rubber grommets, and pretty much everything around in this area is wood and it would be close to impossible to ground a naked wired anywhere in there.

In my car - or just about any vehicle - the main fuse is not right at the battery post, but some distance away.
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Old 06-13-2016, 03:00 PM   #47
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Again - Venting for TRUE AGMs

Not to beat this to death, but NOT ALL manufacturers require outside venting for their AGMs.
<http://www.carquestprofessionals.com/batteries/faq_myths.html#9>
<http://batteriesbyfisher.com/agm-batteries>
HOWEVER, they ALL require that the battery NOT be enclosed in a sealed container. A normal battery box is not sealed.
Telephone Companies (Telcos) have placed AGMs for PBX and other telephone backup requirements in normal office environments in regular plastic battery boxes for years. That's where mine came from. Rarely, if ever had I seen these backups actually vented to the outside and I worked for a Telco for 30 years.
Do what you are comfortable and happy with.
Mike ....>
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Old 06-13-2016, 03:27 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Michael Pupeza View Post
Not to beat this to death, but NOT ALL manufacturers require outside venting for their AGMs.
<http://www.carquestprofessionals.com/batteries/faq_myths.html#9>
<http://batteriesbyfisher.com/agm-batteries>
HOWEVER, they ALL require that the battery NOT be enclosed in a sealed container. A normal battery box is not sealed.
Telephone Companies (Telcos) have placed AGMs for PBX and other telephone backup requirements in normal office environments in regular plastic battery boxes for years. That's where mine came from. Rarely, if ever had I seen these backups actually vented to the outside and I worked for a Telco for 30 years.
Do what you are comfortable and happy with.
Mike ....>
This is exactly what LifeLine told me Mike. They are used in RV interior spaces as any small amount of potential gassing, not likely, will disperse. What they don't want to see is their batteries in a sealed enclosure. You can place in a box venting to outside of course but not necessary per LifeLine. I will likely place in a box but it won't be vented to outside nor sealed. The downside to a Lifeline, Trojan and Concord type AGM battery is that they cost an arm and a leg but worth it in my opinion.

AGM batteries will accept a very fast rate of charge which helps when you have a lot of capacity and speedy charging is important. When in storage their rate of discharge is very low as compared to wet cell batteries.

Needless to say, a fuse on the terminal and quality battery cut off switch located in an accessible location is good practice.
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Old 06-13-2016, 09:47 PM   #49
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AGM are basically lead acid with the acid in a matrix. Both L/A and AGM need to be vented.
Gel cells, as named, have the acid gelled. They do not gas. Well, except in cases of being involved in a fire, in which case a small amount of hydrogen gas would be the least of your troubles!
We have had both kinds but had much better experience with the gels. We now run our Compact II on one group 27 and a couple of small solar panels, but had the big dual 6V setup on the sailboat for many years.
IMHO they are worth the higher price


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Old 06-13-2016, 10:04 PM   #50
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They do make one type that is used for emergency lights and other inside use that does not gas, they can be placed on side, even upside down. The down side is the price, we got one the larger capacity, but more than triple the price, it is a big ouch and its weight is 60 lbs. so very heavy.
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Old 06-13-2016, 10:41 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Denece View Post
AGM need to be vented.
Yes, but as Dave and Santiago just posted, and what I have found with extensive research lately, is that they can be vented into a room, as the possibility of a wee bit of gas, not enough to be harmful to a person, is very remote.

There is no harm at all putting AGM's in a sealed box vented to the outside either, something you must do with Lead Acid when inside a room (or trailer).

I have just about wracked my brain reading every bit of info available out there on batteries, especially AGM, and a bit on Lithium (a great choice, if it were not for the extremely high price). Trying to figure out the best scenario for the batteries in my upcoming 2017 Escape 5.0TA, where I want to shoehorn them into a spot and want to save as much space as possible by eliminating a battery box. One problem I am running into, is that Escape must install batteries inside in a battery box, even if they know I am using AGMs, as they must cover their butts in the case that someone down the line installs Lead Acid again. Once the trailer is in my hands, I can do whatever I like.
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Old 06-13-2016, 11:46 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Jim Bennett View Post
One problem I am running into, is that Escape must install batteries inside in a battery box, even if they know I am using AGMs, as they must cover their butts in the case that someone down the line installs Lead Acid again. Once the trailer is in my hands, I can do whatever I like.
Join the club Jim. I went round and round with Escape on this and agreed to take their small standard wet cell in a box with vent behind the spare tire where it won't be seen. I will use this brand new wet cell battery and box elsewhere.

I will add serious AGMs under the dinette bench after careful thought to fore/aft and side to side weight balancing. Don't want to destabilize tow handling. If I have room will put in an unsealed vent to cabin battery box for aesthetics and possibly easier mounting. Will see when I get to that point. There are battery types that are tall with small footprints. This can help. As I said before due to their heft, you might consider using two 6 volts to almost cut installation weight in half. Good news is that the battery will likely last 10 or more years. By that time grandchildren can help with replacement.

Jim you might want to consider disabling the panel's charger and adding a high performance high charge rate marine charger. Basically I will not use the built in converter/charger. Will run directly off the batteries when plugged to shore power which will also simultaneously charge batteries. I wanted a separate converter but quality ones are costly and not really needed. I trust my 12vdc equipment running from the battery more than a low end converter, especially the marine 12vdc refrigerator. A low cost converter is all that stands between it and 120 vac ? no thank you.
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Old 06-14-2016, 09:08 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Santiago View Post
Join the club Jim.
Seeing we are thinking along the same lines, I have a few questions in my quest for a solution, I haven't spent much time thinking about it since discussed on the Escape forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Santiago View Post
I went round and round with Escape on this and agreed to take their small standard wet cell in a box with vent behind the spare tire where it won't be seen. I will use this brand new wet cell battery and box elsewhere.
This is a good solution to eliminate the need for a vent and minimize cost, but do they have to build a bracket on to mount the box too, and where does the battery cable enter the trailer?
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Originally Posted by Santiago View Post
I will add serious AGMs under the dinette bench after careful thought to fore/aft and side to side weight balancing. Don't want to destabilize tow handling. If I have room will put in an unsealed vent to cabin battery box for aesthetics and possibly easier mounting. Will see when I get to that point. There are battery types that are tall with small footprints. This can help. As I said before due to their heft, you might consider using two 6 volts to almost cut installation weight in half. Good news is that the battery will likely last 10 or more years. By that time grandchildren can help with replacement.
I still like the idea of putting the batteries in the back, using a U-shaped dinette, but with the back bench narrowed as much as possible. My main concern with the battery mounting is not aesthetics so much, but ensuring they are mounted solid, and nothing else stowed would ever be able to come against them.

I will almost certainly be using two 6V.

Heck, I put out enough funding to my children, let alone hope to ever recover anything from the grandkids.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Santiago View Post
Jim you might want to consider disabling the panel's charger and adding a high performance high charge rate marine charger. Basically I will not use the built in converter/charger. Will run directly off the batteries when plugged to shore power which will also simultaneously charge batteries. I wanted a separate converter but quality ones are costly and not really needed. I trust my 12vdc equipment running from the battery more than a low end converter, especially the marine 12vdc refrigerator. A low cost converter is all that stands between it and 120 vac ? no thank you.
I need a bit of clarification here to understand.

I realise that the converter/charger Escape uses is not the best on the market, but had not heard of it causing problems. I know it does not equalize batteries, but this is not an issue with the AGMs. Is it really that bad?

So, you are not using a converter at all, but instead running directly off the batteries, which use your aftermarket charger to keep charged? This is what I did in a rebuild of a Trillium for my daughter, using a CTEK charger. I just provided my own distribution of the DC circuits (only one 15A AC circuit), though the loads are small in that 13' trailer. If we add solar, it will just use its own charge controller.

Are you forgoing the 3-way fridge in favour of a 12V one? I had considered this, but with the better model that the new door allows, I think I might go with it. We do mostly boondocking, and though we will have solar (the 180W fixed and a portable 80W), we do run the furnace a lot where we camp.
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Old 06-14-2016, 07:16 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Jim Bennett View Post
Seeing we are thinking along the same lines, I have a few questions in my quest for a solution, I haven't spent much time thinking about it since discussed on the Escape forum.


This is a good solution to eliminate the need for a vent and minimize cost, but do they have to build a bracket on to mount the box too, and where does the battery cable enter the trailer?

I still like the idea of putting the batteries in the back, using a U-shaped dinette, but with the back bench narrowed as much as possible. My main concern with the battery mounting is not aesthetics so much, but ensuring they are mounted solid, and nothing else stowed would ever be able to come against them.

I will almost certainly be using two 6V.

Heck, I put out enough funding to my children, let alone hope to ever recover anything from the grandkids.


I need a bit of clarification here to understand.

I realise that the converter/charger Escape uses is not the best on the market, but had not heard of it causing problems. I know it does not equalize batteries, but this is not an issue with the AGMs. Is it really that bad?

So, you are not using a converter at all, but instead running directly off the batteries, which use your aftermarket charger to keep charged? This is what I did in a rebuild of a Trillium for my daughter, using a CTEK charger. I just provided my own distribution of the DC circuits (only one 15A AC circuit), though the loads are small in that 13' trailer. If we add solar, it will just use its own charge controller.

Are you forgoing the 3-way fridge in favour of a 12V one? I had considered this, but with the better model that the new door allows, I think I might go with it. We do mostly boondocking, and though we will have solar (the 180W fixed and a portable 80W), we do run the furnace a lot where we camp.
Jim
I think the deal with the Charger/Converter debate is really the nature of the "Cycle" of the charging?
If using a converter they will provide a steady 12vdc for your loads and also perform charging cycles as they see fit all while not interrupting the 12vdc supply to the trailer loads.

A standalone charger will usually want to provide Charging Cycles that follow some algorithm they have decided is optimal for charging only and thus might be challenged if also used as a Power Supply at the same time.

I use mostly Xantrex Marine Charging in my builds and they offer you a selector switch to choose between using them as a standalone charger or to be able to be used as a Power Supply too.
It is unclear to me exactly how the difference is implemented but the course of many conversations about this with Xantrex they assure me that this is what they deliver that many can not.

I am not at all certain that we are not all really running off of the batteries all the time anyway and that even the cheapest smart converter does not do the same thing as the Xantrex but I suspect here that you do indeed get mostly what you pay for and that the better Charger that has also been designed as a continuous demand power supply can only be an advantage over lessor units.

I prefer to build my own distribution anyway so for me these units are ideal.

I have also done a few projects using even higher end units from Newmar and seem to function in a similar manner and I have also used pretty cheap but still sophisticated chargers that also appear to deliver as a power supply with no issue but I have also tried a few that did not so…….YMMV as they say.

I would also tell you I have used the West Mountain Powergate products with great success and these are made to be a UPS basically for Ham Radio mainly where you run off the battery through the unit and it manages charging too AND the big difference is that you can use a dedicated Power Supply to power the whole thing with the Powergate merely controlling and managing the whole thing.

More than one way to skin this cat!

We are having fun now!?!

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Old 06-14-2016, 10:51 PM   #55
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how I got to where I am....

three years ago I found out that the charger in my Power Center was no longer charging the battery(ies)....at that point I looked at a replacement (that fit right into the cavity of the old converter/charger....obviously there was a market) but this was a very expensive fix....

next on the list of solutions was a "new generation" Power Center that although affordable required quite a bit of interior/cosmetic work as it was a lot smaller than the original PC...

a little bit frustrated about either options I rewired the panel so that power came from the batteries exclusively and installed a common 3 stage charger....this worked well enough....

later I decided to invest in a better charger (multi function/voltage and basically "promising the moon" feature wise)....one of the reason I got it is that it is double insulated and did not require/have a fan (something that was a bit of an irritant at times)....

what I later found out was that the simple 3 stage charger never quite got the batteries up to full charge compared to my new "super smart" unit (this is what my hydrometer told me)...bottom line I'm glad I upgraded...previously I never really filled up my "tank" even though I had paid some good money to have a larger one....

on the subject of using the unit as a power supply and wondering if it is performing as intended (charging the batteries) while doing so....I'm not too worried....overnight while I'm sleeping and using no power at all the charger has 8 hours to do it's "intended" job...

I have a permanent 4 digit voltmeter mounted inside the coach...I get a pretty good feel for what is going on as I use more or less power....for little trailers like ours I don't think we have anything to worry about given our typical use....if you get my drift


there are, indeed, a lot of ways to skin a cat....happy motoring
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Old 06-15-2016, 04:41 AM   #56
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After seeing what happened with Parkliner, I'm not sure why anyone would risk putting a battery inside their trailer. I'm not a Chemist, but my best guess is that those AGM batteries were "shoe horned" to use Jim's term into too small a space and connected to a charger with an incorrect charging profile. The result, they experienced a positive feedback phenomena called thermal runaway.

If you are camping and connected to shore power then why are you charging your battery? One of the benefits of an AGM is extremely low self discharge. Over the winter I charge my Lifeline AGM once. Camping with electricity, disconnect the battery. On the road, my tow charges the battery. Off grid, unless your hauling a large solar array there's little chance of over heating. The current is too low. The only time you need a plug in charger is at home should you forget to disconnect the battery and parasitic discharge occurs. Then there's plenty of time to charge. No need to be in a hurry. Nor is there a need to leave it connected indefinitely.

While an AGM is one of the safest batteries you can have they are not inert. And while it's true that UPS will deliver them, they are not being charged during that time. The safest place for a battery is on the tongue. If you insist on putting it inside then please be careful. Raz
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