Frontal Area

[melissab]

Sooooooooooooo, I'm wondering if the Scamp 13 has less frontal area than my T@b? The T@b is exactly the same width as my Sienna Van so the difference must be in height. Is my T@b that much higher and catching more wind than Scamp 13 owners? I sure could feel her back there up hills and in headwinds wheras folks with the little Eggs say they hardly notice them at all. Here are some pix of the height of Tabitha compared to my van. Could folks with pix of their Scamp/tow post them so I can see the difference? We're thinking of a trip to Atlanta maybe over T'giving to rent a Scamp 13 from Jay (a member here) to see if there really is a difference in shape/size.

These are 4 different campgrounds even though they look the same. Out of 8 Campgrounds and 6000 miles I only had to back up twice!! Now that's planning, LOL.

[honda03842]

As I understand it your T@b is 7'9 inches tall and 6'7"wide

The Scamp 13 is a couple of inches shorter (7'6") and the Scamp 16 is an inch taller (7'10"). The two Scamps are 6'8" wide.

It's sort of surprising that the Sienna with over 250 hp should have any issue towing your T@B. We towed our 2400 lb Scamp 16 to Canada last week with our 160 hp Honda CRV and only encountered one hill that really caused us to slow significantly, coming off a stop light out of a river valley.

Possibly you were traveling at a much higher speed than us and encountered strong head winds. I've never towed in strong head winds but have driven my motorhome in them and mpg has dropped by 1/3rd.

I would expect a TAB and a Scamp not to have dramatically different drag and that both would tow easily.

We of course were driving relatively slowly on rural route 1 in Maine, probably never exceeding 55 mph, the speed limit.

Norm

[melissab]

Thanks for the excellent info, Norm. Since I dont have much trailer towing experience and definately not anywhere that wasnt flat I'm not sure what to expect out of my Sienna. I climbed hills at around 45 mph and 3000 RPMs in 4th gear. It did seem I had a headwind most of the trip. It was so strong in SD that my van downshifted going down a hill just to hold 45 mph. In order to hold 50 mph on normal hills I'd need 4th gear and 3000 RPM's. I only needed 3rd gear on the 6% grade hills. On flat land at 55 mph my RPM's were around 2100-2200 but any incline and 55 mph would be 2700 RPMs. Coming across I-10 in FL I was running 60-65mph trying to keep from getting run over and was cranking 2800-3000 RPMs the entire way. Maybe I'm just not use to hearing my van rev b/c I live in a city where all my driving is 45 mph or the rare 55 mph so the van RPM's normally sit around 1500 RPMs or less so twice as much freaks me out. I was worried traveling 10+ hrs a day in 4th gear and 2500+ RPM's would be bad for my van. It goes to Toyota tomorrow for i'ts 70K mile service so I'll talk to them and see what they say about RPM's. Also, since Scamp owners say they dont even notice the trailer back there I thought maybe it had to do with the shape of the front of my trailer compared to the shape of the Scamp even if they are close to the same height. On hills or headwinds I definately knew Tabitha was back there. My right leg is sore from mashing the accelerator all those miles.

[honda03842]

Did I read 10 hours? Wow.

If your transmission was over worked, it's temperature would probably rise.

Did your temperature gauge stay in the same place all the time. We have a arrow on our gauge that shows the normal position. I first started using it in the motorhome, where long hills would cause the temperature to rise.

Now we have an Ultragauge and the displayed temperature virtually never changes. If your transmission is having trouble with the load you should see its temperature increase.

SD can be mighty windy. That's where I've seen the strongest continuous head winds. Usually we drive east to west thru SD when we make a loop of the USA, typically driving into the wind. This year we will be coming home that way going west to east, maybe I'll get some of the mpg back.

In the Honda I try to keep the RPM between 2 and 3000 RPM. If it drops to 2000 it means I need to down shift. We have a manual transmission giving a little more control than an automatic in terms of shifting. As well we do not use the cruise control. Most of the time we are in 5th gear.

I have noticed the effect of frontal area and shape. Our Sunline, our previous trailer was a box, a half foot wider than our Scamp 16 and weighed 200 lbs less. When we towed the Sunline we got 20 mpg; withthe Scamp 16 we get 23 mpg. Shape and frontal do count. Certainly the mpg change is a measure of the effort that the tow vehicle had to exert.

Norm

[cpaharley2008]

I'm sure your manual will tell you to turn off o/d if you have such. That is basically what the tow mode does, it keeps the transmission out of overdrive and constant downshifting, that is what is hard on the transmission.
Interestingly enough, my T@da towed real nice but everyone on the T@b forums complained. I think that maybe the fact that most had undersized tow vehicles caused the drop, whereas right now I get 13 mpg, whether I'm towing or not, makes no difference.
In addition, the people over on R-Pod nation are also complaining of poor gas mileage. It has to do with weight ratios to the tow vehicle. R-Pods and T@bs weigh more than fg trailers.

[Ed Harris]

Welcome back!
I was wondering when you would wander back home?
Now you know why the heat at your house didn't seem so bad to me,Mo. humidity is something special for sure.

It is interesting that you had these observations as I had the opposite when bringing it down to you.
I can only think it is the relative power/weight ratio of the tow and towed that makes the difference?

I really did hardly notice it was there aside from the orange blob in the rear view mirrors.
It felt so light to me compared to the Casita it was astounding.
When towing the Casita I see a drop in mileage of a few already bad MPGs but with the T@B it was about the same as without the T@B?

What is also interesting is that before I had the Tundra V8 I have now I had the same year and length Tundra with a V6 engine. Same camper shell and wheels and tires and the same year too.

The V6 had no problems towing the Casita but did work harder for sure. It also got a bigger drop in MPG by about 2times vs the V8.
So the more power the more effortless the tow. The V8 also shifts less and is much quieter and is able to pass without a lot of exertion.

Another item of note is that when I towed the T@B with the Sprinter it was also very easy and effortless feeling.
The Sprinter pretty much blocked the Windstream from the T@B and that may have helped too.

Anyway I am glad it all went OK and the mileage seems like a small price to pay for the comfort and security the T@B offered, not to mention the Fun Adventure you had.

Welcome home
Ed

Originally Posted by melissab

Sooooooooooooo, I'm wondering if the Scamp 13 has less frontal area than my T@b? The T@b is exactly the same width as my Sienna Van so the difference must be in height. Is my T@b that much higher and catching more wind than Scamp 13 owners? I sure could feel her back there up hills and in headwinds wheras folks with the little Eggs say they hardly notice them at all. Here are some pix of the height of Tabitha compared to my van. Could folks with pix of their Scamp/tow post them so I can see the difference? We're thinking of a trip to Atlanta maybe over T'giving to rent a Scamp 13 from Jay (a member here) to see if there really is a difference in shape/size.

These are 4 different campgrounds even though they look the same. Out of 8 Campgrounds and 6000 miles I only had to back up twice!! Now that's planning, LOL.

[honda03842]

What do T@bs weigh?

Norm

[Ed Harris]

I think around 2000lbs?

[melissab]

Owners on the T@b forum report weights of between 1500-1800 depending on how heavily loaded. Pretty much all we had were 2 suitcases, sheets/pillows/blanket and a few canned goods for an emergency. We had paper plates, some water and 3 towels/wash cloths for showers along with toiletries and that was it. I do want to find a place to have her weighed though. I cant help but wonder if since mine is the first year and aluminum and not Alufiber (fiberglass/aluminum hybrid of some sort) if maybe mine isnt a bit heavier. I did look at the documentation online which I think said 1500 lbs but we all know how factory specs are wrong.

No, my temp gauge never moved when towing. Overdrive was locked out accept when traveling East to West through the Southern States to TX. Yes, I drove 10-12 hr days not b/c I wanted to but b/c we had such a hard time locating Campgrounds when we were ready to stop we just had to keep driving.

We had such a blast and cant wait to do it again next summer! We will be going to Clarksville, TN for Christmas with my inlaws and we also plan on taking smaller 3 day weekend trips any time the kids are out of school to explore locally once the weather cools down.

It was so nice having her to sleep in the whole month I was in WY. It doesnt get completely dark till midnight or so and then the sun is back up by 4am so those night shades and cold A/C kept me sleeping like a baby. Although sometimes I did feel like I was in a giant tuna can when I thought about the Mountain Lions in the area, lol.

Originally Posted by honda03842

What do T@bs weigh?

Norm

[Frederick L. Simson]

Originally Posted by melissab

Is my T@b that much higher and catching more wind than Scamp 13 owners? I sure could feel her back there up hills and in headwinds whereas folks with the little Eggs say they hardly notice them at all.

This is my Honda Odyssey paired with my old Compact Jr.

I hardly knew it was there. It weighed 1400 pounds.

This is my Honda Odyssey paired with my Fiber Stream

It feels like I'm dragging a parachute back there. It weighs 3250 pounds.
Sometimes I feel that "flipping" the axle leaf springs was counterproductive. But I'd only bring it down to where the top of the Window A/C would align with the top of the Honda if I flipped it back, which doesn't seem worth the effort.

[Bill K]

Frederick,
Did you think about whether a wind deflector would help or not ?

Bill K

Originally Posted by Frederick L. Simson

This is my Honda Odyssey paired with my old Compact Jr.
Attachment 38705
I hardly knew it was there.

This is my Honda Odyssey paired with my Fiber Stream
Attachment 38706
It feels like I'm dragging a parachute back there.
Sometimes I feel that "flipping" the axle leaf springs was counterproductive. But I'd only bring it down to where the top of the Window A/C would align with the top of the Honda if I flipped it back, which doesn't seem worth the effort.

[honda03842]

Frederick,

What was the difference in MPGs between the two rigs? How does it compare to no rig?

Norm

[Frederick L. Simson]

Originally Posted by Bill K

Did you think about whether a wind deflector would help or not ?

I have thought about using a wind deflector. My quandary is how to attach it? I don't have a roof luggage rack and there aren't any rain gutters to clip to...

[Frederick L. Simson]

Originally Posted by honda03842

What was the difference in MPGs between the two rigs? How does it compare to no rig?

• Odyssey alone in City Traffic: 18 mpg
• Odyssey alone at 65 mph on the freeway: 24 mpg*
• Odyssey + Compact Jr at 65 mph on freeway: 21 mpg
• Odyssey + Fiber Stream at 55 mph on freeway: 16 mpg
• Odyssey + Fiber Stream at 70 mph on freeway: 11 mpg

*On one trip between Palm Springs, California and Lake Havasu City, Arizona and back with the Odyssey alone I set the cruse control for 60 mph. The round trip took one tank of gas and I got 27 mpg! I haven't been able to repeat that performance.

[Bill K]

They sure don't make it easy to put anything on the roof.

Bill K

Originally Posted by Frederick L. Simson

I have thought about using a wind deflector. My quandary is how to attach it? I don't have a roof luggage rack and there aren't any rain gutters to clip to...

[mcbrew]

Melissa, you are going to know that there is a trailer back there, unless you are towing it with a Peterbilt. That does not indicate any kind of problem. Your engine is going to rev higher, you'll have trouble keeping up with traffic on hills, you won't be able to stop as quickly, and your fuel economy will suffer.

Welcome to the world of trailering!

I Am not trying to be a smart arse. It is unrealistic to think that you won't notice a trailer behind you. That helps you to remember that it is there, and to drive accordingly. You mentioned driving at 65 MPH. Hopefully you weren't trying to drive much faster than that with your T@B in tow! Take a lesson from the Europeans, who tow a lot more than we do (and with smaller cars): slow down and enjoy the trip!

I towed my Scamp up into the Pocono mountains a few weeks ago with my 128 horsepower subcompact car, along with two bicycles on the roof of the car. I kept the speed to 55-60 MPH and got 24 MPG.

Don't worry about it! Just remember to change your transmission fluid sooner, and use the highest quality fluids you can find. I recommend RedLine, but there are a few other good ones put there, too.

[CliveAlive]

I don't know about you, Jesse. You're so Pro-European that you even spelled "smart - ****" the English way!

[melissab]

Thank you for the input. After talking with Toyota today and having them tell me all that was normal and my tranny fluid looks perfect I feel a lot better. The only time I drove 65 mph was on I-10 around Jacksonville when I was getting ran over by semis etc and I just wanted to get away from that city as quickly as I could so I could slow back down to my usual 55-60 mph speed. Funny enough, with the surge brakes on the T@b I didnt notice any decreased braking and did have a couple of emergency braking situations where I think I stopped quicker when the T@b brakes engaged.

I guess I'd read so many posts of folks saying they tow with smaller vehicles than mine and barely know their little Eggs aree back there and it only affected their mileage by a few MPG that I thought surely my V6 Sienna would just breeze up hills and power through headwinds without downshifting and slowing or chugging gas etc.

Thank you for the reassurance. I've only towed a popup before so never experienced that kind of wind resistance.

This is why I LOVE this Group!!

Melissa

Originally Posted by mcbrew

Melissa, you are going to know that there is a trailer back there, unless you are towing it with a Peterbilt. That does not indicate any kind of problem. Your engine is going to rev higher, you'll have trouble keeping up with traffic on hills, you won't be able to stop as quickly, and your fuel economy will suffer.

Welcome to the world of trailering!

I Am not trying to be a smart arse. It is unrealistic to think that you won't notice a trailer behind you. That helps you to remember that it is there, and to drive accordingly. You mentioned driving at 65 MPH. Hopefully you weren't trying to drive much faster than that with your T@B in tow! Take a lesson from the Europeans, who tow a lot more than we do (and with smaller cars): slow down and enjoy the trip!

I towed my Scamp up into the Pocono mountains a few weeks ago with my 128 horsepower subcompact car, along with two bicycles on the roof of the car. I kept the speed to 55-60 MPH and got 24 MPG.

Don't worry about it! Just remember to change your transmission fluid sooner, and use the highest quality fluids you can find. I recommend RedLine, but there are a few other good ones put there, too.

[mcbrew]

Originally Posted by CliveAlive

I don't know about you, Jesse. You're so Pro-European that you even spelled "smart - ****" the English way!

Haha! I spelled it that way hoping it would make it through the forum's filters.

Cheers! (lol)

[Carol H]

Melissa glad to hear you had a good time. Im one of those who drives with a fairly small tow and what you experinced is pretty normal although I have the option of going over to manual/sport mode in mine to help it out on the hills and keep the RMP's down. IMHO the winds are an issue for everyone - no matter how big the tow vechile is. I suspect there are few people out there towing who are not reminded very fast that they are towing when faced with a strong head wind or a wind coming in gusts from the side - more so from the side when towing fairly light trailers like ours. A head wind will impact everyones MPG no matter what they are towing with as will speed.

You may also want to check what the speed rating is on your trailers tires. some are not rated for over 65. I do tend to stay at or under 60 no matter what 55 is my happy speed but I faced the same situation in Montana last week as you where the speed was posted as 75 on roads that would not be rated any higher than 45/50 here - after talking with a local about the speed laws I decided to not to go over 60 and noted I was not the only one. I kept an eye out to make sure I was not holding anyone up on single lane roads and would use the pull outs or move over as far to the right as I could so they can see its safe to pass. Bottom line dont let people push you into going fast than what you are comfortable doing - thats a great way to get into trouble towing.