Guidelines on Buying a New Fiberglass Rig - Questions

[DeanCHS1980]

Hi All,

Over the last 12 months as I have delved into researching RVs, I have discovered the general goal in buying a new rig. . .Try your best to negotiate 30% off the MSRP. Now, this may mean getting 25% to 28% off, but shoot for 30%. Over the last couple of months, my research has focused on smaller travel trailers, particularly molded fiberglass rigs. However, most FG rigs seem to be sold directly from the manufacturer, so the above goal does not apply.

There are direct sale manufacturers of other RVs as well, such as Class C rigs like Lazy Daze, Nexus, and Phoenix Cruisers. These rigs are priced less than the competitors MSRP and are high quality units, yet these manufacturers (not Lazy Daze) will still discount their rigs somewhat, particularly during the late fall/winter months.

In researching FG rigs, I have noticed the following:

1. New rigs have wait times up to the current wait of 16 months for Escape models.
2. It is hard to determine what a new rig will cost (at least based on information from the website). It seems like Escape is among the best in terms of listing their base prices along with the price list for options.

Given the two items above, is there any discounting associated with the purchase of new fiberglass rigs?

Historically, I have found it easier to research new car prices vs. used car prices. Get dealer invoice and negotiate up from there. The internet has made it is easier to even research used car prices for those willing to devote the time. In terms of FG rigs, it "feels" like it is easier to get a handle on used prices. There are FG related websites that can be researched for prices for current used rigs as well as archived information. NICE! By the way, it does appear that FG rigs hold their value well and sell well on the used market, thus one has to know the market and be prepared to act quickly if a used rig that meets one's expectations shows up. OK, I think I kinda understand what one needs to do to buy a used rig.

Are there any guidelines for being a smart shopper of a new FG rig beyond contacting the manufacturer and pricing a unit with the options one wants, ordering it, and then waiting?

As always, your expertise and wisdom is much appreciated.

Thanks,

Dean

[Borrego Dave]

Originally Posted by DeanCHS1980

Hi All,
Over the last 12 months as I have delved into researching RVs, I have discovered the general goal in buying a new rig. . .
Are there any guidelines for being a smart shopper of a new FG rig beyond contacting the manufacturer and pricing a unit with the options one wants, ordering it, and then waiting?
As always, your expertise and wisdom is much appreciated.
Dean

Ahh Dean, you're over thinking it again. There are no discounts from new FG makers, stick built yes, just how it is. Toss anything about buying cars out the window, apples and squash....worse than oranges. So with that said, you can scratch that research off your list . The biggest thing I get from your questions and I may be wrong, but got to say it. As you say you have no RVing experience, to me even considering anything new as a way to find out if camping is going to work for you is putting the cart before the horse. You might consider renting an RV for a week also.
There is a good buyers checklist in the doc center that will give you the info for what to look for in a used trailer. If RVing doesn't work out for you, you should be able to get your $ back. A new rig, $$$$ less. I'd be looking online at the layouts and info of the different rigs out there, then go see them at rallies and look for the one you think will work the best for you.
OK, there's my wisdom for you. Now you have more time to grade papers .

[Raz]

No dealers. No mark up. Buying direct means you are buying at invoice. Besides, it's a sellers market right now. A few years ago things would slow down in the winter and some manufacturers might offer discounts, but not now. They can sell every trailer the can make and people are happy just to get a trailer. Raz

[gordon2]

Originally Posted by DeanCHS1980

...
Are there any guidelines for being a smart shopper of a new FG rig beyond contacting the manufacturer and pricing a unit with the options one wants, ordering it, and then waiting? ...

I think the hard part is knowing what the (almost) perfect rig is for you. Even though I did a lot of research, in hindsight I would have bought different tug a year ago. With a tow capacity of 5000 instead of 3500 I could have and would have considered more options in brands, size and options.

But then I would have had to research even more, and gone to see more brands, talk with more owners, etc.

So a smart shopper is a (very) informed shopper.. but that does not seem to result in any money savings.

Scamp does give a discount for options, but I think its just built into the retail price for the packages that are listed on their price list. I still had to get multiple quotes from them to get the exact figure for different options. They will gladly send you the price list in email or snail mail so I don't know why they don't put it on the website. Of course they don't really do anything with the website anyway. I have the price list from April in email if that helps.

If you get your place in the production line, you can still make some changes for some months. I have three re-writes of my order all done before the actual manufacturing started in the last month of my wait. If I were even remotely considering a trip all the way to BC (and had the tug that I should have bought), I would order an Escape today and maybe buy a used Scamp in the meantime. I don't know how I would configure an Escape but I would figure it out in time.

Scamp does get some unsold trailers at the factory on rare occasion and I always wanted to know if any 16's became available. I never heard of any however. If you can go by the factory in person you might get lucky and find one that didn't sell, but they don't seem to make those generally known. I did read from one guy who saw two 13 footers for sale at the time, when he was there on other business.

I'm not too worried about paying full retail since it's still a good price, and the deprecation is so much less than other campers. In fact, I have seen a present year Scamp (that was reportedly used only one time) go up for sale because of a change in the owner's circumstances. They buyer didn't want to wait six months for a new one and so paid more than the original price. That's the exception but does show the value.

[Jon in AZ]

I agree with all that's been said, especially about starting used.

As to buying new, molded fiberglass costs more to build, so the invoice price is higher, foot-for-foot and feature-for-feature, than conventional construction. But the dealer margins (that's where the 30% comes from) have already been eliminated. No negotiating means less stress in the buying process. You'll never be left wondering if the next guy got a better deal.

Another thought that helps me accept the price of a new molded fiberglass trailer is this. For the most part, the owners of these companies are hands-on, hardworking small business entrepreneurs, and none appear to be getting obscenely rich doing it. I tend to buy on the merits of a product more than the ethics and philosophy of the business, but when the two align, that's added value in my book.

And, of course, the merits of the product include the long-term durability and high resale value of molded fiberglass.

[Cathy P.]

I worked for a manufacturer of 5th wheels that sold direct. Even they didn't offer any kind of discount and the only time there was an extra incentive to buy were during a slow time of the year, they might offer some upgrade at no extra cost, nothing big but to the frugal, it was attractive enough to keep the lines running.

Keep in mind that smaller manufacturers have to pay more for components than a big manufacturer who will order 500 units or more of something like a refrigerator or furnace and price breaks help keep the prices lower giving them more wiggle room.

Sometimes, but rarely, a manufacturer has a "show" model that has a reduction, usually a year old or so that they sell at a discounted price.

Discounts come when the seller is "hungry" for cash.

[Uplander]

The thing that is evident about the direct marketing by fiberglass mfgrs is their reluctance to negotiate the final retail selling price...it is their way or the highway. I will never do business with any company that does business in such a fashion. The consumer facilitates this by accepting the dictatorial policies of these manufacturers.

The above marketing techniques explains that while traveling for the last three weeks while covering about 10 states and countless miles with my quality built "sticky" travel trailer I have seen ZERO Fiberglass Travel Trailers on the road.
If they came to market with dealer networks in the real world the prices would come down. Shoppers would be more confident with a dealer service standing behind their product.

Until they come to market like all the other major manufacturers they will forever be in the fringe market...overcharging for a product without dealers and service locations....forever in the little league in the RV industry.

[Jon in AZ]

My way or the highway, eh?

[Borrego Dave]

Gee Patrick, you seem to be pretty much against molded trailers. Kind of wonder why you even bothered to join FGRV as you have a stick built unit.

[Jon in AZ]

Originally Posted by Uplander

...overcharging for a product without dealers and service locations...

Prices are ultimately determined by supply and demand. Since they are selling every one they can make at full price and, in one case, running over a year out on production, basic laws of economics would indicate they are actually underpriced.

Warranty service locations are as close as your local independent RV shop… i.e., the one you pick, not the one the manufacturer has a contractual relationship with. For me, that's several hours closer. Other than warranty service, remind me of what I need a dealer for… besides supporting salespeople and their loved ones?

[Roger C H]

When you have a 16 month backlog, manufacturers of ANYTHING won't budge on MSRP.

Consumers are lucky they don't RAISE the price.

Ever hear of supply and demand?

[Bob Miller]

All of this negative attitude about FGRV's, as their current order backlog is ONLY 4 to 14 months, must have all of the FGRV builders shaking in their boots. LOL


What a lot of stick-built buyers don't want to realize is that they are just being shmoozed with inflated MSRP's so they can "Bargain" the prices down to what the units should be priced at once dealer mark-up is included. In short, everyone gets that big special discount. But it helps Joe RV Buyer with his bragging rights, because in discounts, real or otherwise, size matters to Joe.


If one looks at the prices being asked for the newer FGRV's just coming on-line this year, it is apparent that building a low production molded fiberglass units is a lot more expensive than the mass produced stickys.


Now, I went on a 5000 mile trip in May and June and I didn't see a single Rolls Royce, is that supposed to mean something about Rolls Royce????? Are they in the Little League of automobile builders and, if so, who cares? (But I did see 5-6 FGRV's and about 20 peeps that asked us about ours)


For what it's worth, here is a known high quality stick-built RV builder. Note how they do business:


Lazy Daze, Montclair, CA
Motorhome Dealer | Low Profile Motorhome | RV Manufacturer | Quality Motorhome
In business for 58 years
Perfected a proven construction that no one else can afford to duplicate
Factory Direct sales only, No Dealers
Backlog for delivery, you order and then wait for yours to be built.
They only go to two or three shows a year, sell the demo unit and take orders for future deliveries
Fixed Prices.....


Sound Familiar?

[Jack L]

A car dealer friend, no- make that an acquaintance once said "a good deal is a state of mind".

Regarding MSRP, it gives a dealer some opportunity to manipulate the numbers. Say for example you want to buy a stick built trailer with an MSRP $20,000 and if you were paying cash you could negotiate a selling price of $15,000. Now lets assume you have a trade in and it is worth almost nothing and you want to finance the transaction and borrow all $15,000. The dealer would write up the deal at $20,000 and show your trade as being worth $5,000 .nd finance the $15,000.

No money down and EZ credit. Lots of people like that. 3 years later you will still owe more than the trailer is worth. That's called "upside down". Happens all the time.

Years ago someone I know purchased motor home. He thought the payments were reasonable. After he had the unit for several months he realized that the contract was for 15 years not the 5 that he had originally thought.

[Bob Miller]

Originally Posted by Jack L

A car dealer friend, no- make that an acquaintance once said "a good deal is a state of mind".

Regarding MSRP, it gives a dealer some opportunity to manipulate the numbers. Say for example you want to buy a stick built trailer with an MSRP $20,000 and if you were paying cash you could negotiate a selling price of $15,000. Now lets assume you have a trade in and it is worth almost nothing and you want to finance the transaction and borrow all $15,000. The dealer would write up the deal at $20,000 and show your trade as being worth $5,000 .nd finance the $15,000.

No money down and EZ credit. Lots of people like that. 3 years later you will still owe more than the trailer is worth. That's called "upside down". Happens all the time.

Years ago someone I know purchased motor home. He thought the payments were reasonable. After he had the unit for several months he realized that the contract was for 15 years not the 5 that he had originally thought.

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Sounds like you friend is the ideal buyer that RV dealers drool over.... LOL

My ex wanted us to get pulled in with the same hook buying a class "A" with a 15 year contract. When I told her what the best of current 15 y.o. Class "A" motorhomes were selling for there was a great big OOOPS, and off we went. We bought a used one and discovered how much it cost to keep & repair, or even go anywhere, and that was gone (at a loss of course) in 6 months.

[Donna D.]

Originally Posted by Uplander

...Until they come to market like all the other major manufacturers they will forever be in the fringe market...overcharging for a product without dealers and service locations....forever in the little league in the RV industry.

I love my Little League trailer(s). Never felt I needed to purchase anything from any "big manufacturers," which I have often found to be resting on a reputation that may not be recently earned. Airstream comes to mind.

I'm glad you're happy with your sticky, truly. But, why hang around here on an all-molded-towable forum since it doesn't sound like you'll ever own one?

[Jack L]

Originally Posted by Bob Miller

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sounds like you friend is the ideal buyer that RV dealers drool over.... LOL

My ex wanted us to get pulled in with the same hook buying a class "A" with a 15 year contract. When I told her what the best of current 15 y.o. Class "A" motorhomes were selling for there was a great big OOOPS, and off we went. We bought a used one and discovered how much it cost to keep & repair, or even go anywhere, and that was gone (at a loss of course) in 6 months.

I asked him what he was thinking and his reply was "well, she had nice legs".

[Cathi]

Originally Posted by Uplander

The thing that is evident about the direct marketing by fiberglass mfgrs is their reluctance to negotiate the final retail selling price...it is their way or the highway. I will never do business with any company that does business in such a fashion. The consumer facilitates this by accepting the dictatorial policies of these manufacturers.

The above marketing techniques explains that while traveling for the last three weeks while covering about 10 states and countless miles with my quality built "sticky" travel trailer I have seen ZERO Fiberglass Travel Trailers on the road.
If they came to market with dealer networks in the real world the prices would come down. Shoppers would be more confident with a dealer service standing behind their product.

Until they come to market like all the other major manufacturers they will forever be in the fringe market...overcharging for a product without dealers and service locations....forever in the little league in the RV industry.

They are so dictatorial at Escape that they installed the lights, flooring, fabric, faucet and table legs and bases that we sent. You cannot order an Escape now because their orders are too far out. And Reace and Tammy are just trying to get more space to put a little dent in the backlog. Their molded fiberglass costs more because it beats the heck out of the other guys' units.

It is actually a nice change from the nonsense that goes on at most dealers over the prices. Everyone pays the same for the same options with fiberglass. Too fair, you say?

Fiberglass units are basically more expensive because they are better built and last longer. Hence, they will always be a very small part of the market. People tend to think that bigger is better and they want cheaper, and that is much of why the market is stickies. People also do not know about fiberglass in most cases. Even if they do, if someone wants more space than about 17', he or she has had to go to a stickie dealer. Now there are at least some 21's and 23's that are molded fiberglass. For people who know the difference.

[DeanCHS1980]

Hi All,

Dave, LOL! You definitely have me figured out in terms of "overthinking it"!!! Given my desire to break into RVing "sooner" rather than "later", buying used is not just a good idea, but a near necessity. Typical, I have questions beyond the issue at hand, thus my inquiry regarding new rigs. As I expected, I have received many helpful responses that are helping me to understand. I have checked out the buyers checklist recently. Looks like a great resource. I appreciate your wisdom. Hey, not grading papers, but I am writing lots of faculty evaluations these days. But, it is nice to have a diversion from the challenge of writing evaluations!!! Whew.

Raz, "buying direct means. . .buying at invoice." Understood. Helpful!!!

Gordon, yes figuring out the "almost perfect" rig is difficult, but at this point, fun and enjoyable. I think we will buy the rig first, then the TV. Thank you for describing your experience buying your Scamp.

Jon, good information regarding the pricing structure of FG rigs vs traditional stick trailers. I am impressed with the durability and resale of FG rigs.

Cathy, thank you for your explanation that there could be, on occasion, other ways for manufacturers to incentivize a purchase via upgrades or options. Of course, YMMV with this. Got it.

Patrick, it looks like your perspective is a bit different than others. Cool beans. Always good to have a number of perspectives. For some strange reason, I have tended to be attracted to rigs that are sold directly from the manufacturer (Lazy Daze, Phoenix Cruiser, and Nexus and now FG rigs). Hmmm???

Roger, yup, I think a 16 month waiting list means something!

Bob, human behavior and our need to "think" that we got a good deal is definitely a reality. Is a good deal really a good deal? Maybe so, maybe not. As long the buyer "thinks" she/he is getting a good deal, then the buyer/seller are happy. I am very familiar with Lazy Daze. OUTSTANDING Class Cs. I am a fan of their 27' Midbath. Maybe one day, I will go that direction. Right now, I am definitely smitten with small (used) FG rigs for a first rig. Hey, I am also very impressed with Taylor Coaches (Sticky builder of small, high quality rigs that Brad sells via directly). Here is his website:

Taylor Coach - Welcome

Thoughts?

He will customize. This is one of several sticky units that I am researching, but I am really leaning FG over stick units.

Jack, agreed, "a good deal is a state of mind" and dealers know this.

Donna, I am the same way. I tend to focus and lean toward small manufacturers. Hey, I have some stickys that I am researching and not all are small manufacturers, including Winnebago Micro Minnies, Forest River R-Pods, Gulf Stream Vintage Cruisers, etc. Along with some manufacturers that are medium to small producers, including Camplite by Livin' Lite, Lance, Serro Scotty, T@B, Riverside Retros, Safari Condos, Allen Campers, Microlite, Travel Lite, and Taylor Coaches as mentioned above. I will not buy a unit with a rubber/vinyl roof or a TPO roof. I am OK with rolled fiberglass and rolled aluminum. Of course, the quality of workmanship can be as important or more important than the materials used. Of all the the non FG units I am researching above, there are a handful that I would consider, particularly the Taylor units. But, the durability and residual value of FG units are real plusses for me. I also like the "look" of FG units.

Thanks to all for your wisdom, expertise, and experience regarding my question.

Take care,

Dean

[Raz]

Patrick, what are you thinking. You are on a fiberglass forum so the response you got was certainly predictable.

The RV industry manufactures RV's the way model T's were made. By hand, very labor intensive. U.S. labor costs are very high which is why the stores are filled with imported goods. Selling direct eliminates the cost of delivery and dealer overhead from the selling price. It seems to me if the big RV companies could manufacture a molded fiberglass camper, sell it through dealers, and do it cheaper, they would. Clearly the demand is there. Raz

[Mr. W.]

Living here in northern Indiana, several of my friends work in the RV industry. Some work at fairly high-end companies. They tell me that they design and build their rigs to last 5 years. With proper care and limited use, it may last longer, but 5 years is their target. After that point, expect to spend less time camping and more time fixing. How many of our fiberglass rigs were tuckered out at 5 years? What is the average age of rig on this website? That might make an interesting poll question.

But, I would suggest that since fiberglass will outlast stickie by a factor of at LEAST 3 to 1, that when comparing prices, it is only fair to calculate using not more than half the price of the fiberglass rig. So, Snoozy for $10K, Escape 21 for $13K, Scamp 13 for $5K. Suddenly, fiberglass doesn't look so expensive.

I have been nibbling around the edges of buying an Escape, so I've been looking at both the new and used market. I have seen several used units, up to 3 years old, that are selling for more than new! Even significantly more. That includes factoring in the exchange rate and option level. The bottom line is that some folks will fork over extra money to avoid the 16 month wait. Discounts will only be achieved IF you can find a used one sitting on a dealer lot, because they don't know what they've got.