HUD Regulations...Tiny Houses vs. RV Fulltimers - Page 7 - Fiberglass RV


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Old 04-16-2016, 02:39 PM   #85
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Name: James Y.
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RVIA

One thing that bothers me about the RVIA is that their "standard" for AC wiring is solid home house wiring, but correct me if I'm wrong. House wiring in anything that moves should be prohibited. Cars, buses, airplanes, boats etc. all use stranded wiring. They have been getting by with it but the typical RV is not intended to last as long as our fiberglass RV's do. Jim G.
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Old 04-16-2016, 04:33 PM   #86
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Vehicles, trailers and motorhomes are DC current for their road going electrical needs. RV's are wired with stranded wire for 12 volt DC current. RV's are also wired in many situations with 120 volt AC circuits for 120 volt accessories using solid core "Romex" type house wire. The National Electric Code does have a section that relates to RV's concerning both 12 volt & 120 volt RV wiring. Article 551 requires stranded wire for 12 volt circuits but does allow "Solid OR Stranded" wire for 120 volt circuits in an RV. Check the article out at your local library or online. Lots of useful information.

VERY interesting that in the boat industry which is REGULATED you NEVER see solid core "Romex" type wiring for the 120 volt AC circuits in a boat. The marine industry uses stranded wire for both AC and DC circuits.

The potential problem with solid core wire is the issue of "vibration" which can cause a wire to come loose at termination points in a trailer or vehicle. You do not have this potential problem in a permanent none moving structure such as your home.

Lot's of RV's, trailers and motorhomes out there with LOT'S OF YEARS of road travel, camping use and sitting that were and still are wired with solid core wiring for the 120 volt AC circuits and have NEVER experienced an electrical problem. Make your own decision as to how you choose to wire the 120 volt AC circuits in your RV! Personally if I were building new RV's or re-wiring a vintage RV on the 120 volt AC circuit side I would use the proper gauge stranded wire in the circuitry instead of solid core house wire.

It all boils down to DOLLARS & CENTS. Stranded wire of proper gauge for use in 120 volt AC circuits is more expensive than solid core "Romex" wire. Since there is NO requirement in the National Electrical Code for use of stranded wire on the 120 volt AC side wiring in a RV why spend the money is probably the attitude of the RV manufacturer's. The RV industry IS meeting the current electrical code using solid core wire for their 120 volt AC wiring harness's in your RV.

One of the best places price and selection wise to purchase stranded wire for DC and AC circuits in your RV or trailer is here:

Marine Wire, Boat Wiring & Marine Electrical - BestBoatWire.com

EVERY one of the "Tiny House Trailers" I've seen on TV are wired with solid core "Romex" wire for their 120 volt AC circuits in the structure. The trailer has its standard DC current lighting and braking wiring harness already wired into the trailer prior to build.
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Old 04-18-2016, 08:25 AM   #87
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published standards?

i can see no place on the rvia.org site where that so-called standards are posted so that i can make my own determination as to whether they are valid or not.
i see no reason for me to take anyone's word for it, least of all a government bureaucrat.
therefore, the HUD decision seems to be based solely on special interest lobbying and not the interests and safety of consumers.
and it will be a very cold day indeed when i spend hundreds of dollars on a printed copy of IEEE standards just to please some stranger with a clipboard and pen.
all the tiny house builds that i have seen are done with more care and acceptable safety than some rv builds.
so, are diy teardrop builds to be considered illegal just like tiny house builds.
and what about total remodels of a scamp or such?
what's really going on?


.
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Old 04-19-2016, 04:01 PM   #88
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i can see no place on the rvia.org site where that so-called standards are posted so that i can make my own determination as to whether they are valid or not.
i see no reason for me to take anyone's word for it, least of all a government bureaucrat.
therefore, the HUD decision seems to be based solely on special interest lobbying and not the interests and safety of consumers.
and it will be a very cold day indeed when i spend hundreds of dollars on a printed copy of IEEE standards just to please some stranger with a clipboard and pen.
all the tiny house builds that i have seen are done with more care and acceptable safety than some rv builds.
so, are diy teardrop builds to be considered illegal just like tiny house builds.
and what about total remodels of a scamp or such?
what's really going on?


.
You answer your own question before you ask it, the accusations I think are somewhat unfounded. Or at least not supported by presentation of any evidence or facts.

The reasons you give are your own unwillingness to "take anyone's word for it" and a distrust of "a government bureaucrat" telling you anything. You are unwilling to "spend hundreds of dollars" in order to have the relevant codes available to you.

Taking those in reverse order I worked for a man who once eloquently stated why he did not know the exact answer off the top of his head. Because he said "I have those manuals on that shelf to remember that stuff. I just have to be able to know I need to look it up and understand the answer when I find it." I have pulled wire for a living, wired up systems in low voltage and 3 phase high voltage, done some home wiring. However I have nowhere near the understanding that my step-son does as a journeyman electrician. He has a copy of the codes for his reference. Seems to me if I wanted to do his job I would need a copy too.

Not going to take anyone's word for it, let us just say there are way too many jokes where something unpleasant or undesirable happens as a result of that attitude. But hey don't take my word for it go take a whiz on the electric fence for yourself

People form communities, and with that comes some measure of the "common" good taking precedent over the individual actions. Some folks push too hard at being arbitrators for what is in the communities interest, others convince themselves that what they want to do is in the community interest. Humans tend to be very good at making arguments to support what they want or already believe. On the other hand one does have some obligation to fit in, to consider the community. Property ownership does not trump the rights of the humans living around that property. Thinking that it did is what got us Love Canal and rivers that caught fire. Not to mention some really messed up areas in coal country. I own the land so I can dump whatever toxic waste I want on it.

On the subject of tiny houses if you want to be a house build a foundation that conforms to code in terms of footings and depth below frost line. If you want to build a tiny house and code requires larger sq. footage then you need to convince the local community that it would not be a detriment to them for you to build this structure. Demanding your "rights" probably won't get the job done, they were there first.

If it has wheels and is not on a foundation I can't see any reason to treat it differently than a camper, and "camping" out for extended period of times in most neighborhoods is generally not well received. If you own enough land, and it is rural enough chances are no one will bother you as long as you have decent arrangements for waste disposal. If it is a neighborhood of single family homes I don't see where one has the right to insist that a neighborhood allow someone to move in to live in an RV or a tiny house on wheels just because they bought a lot.

Lot of folks are snow birds, stay in everything from totally unsupervised RV communities on public land to well maintained and rule governed RV parks. You want to retire in an old school bus camper don't expect the right to demand the park allow you to move in. Head for the federal public lands. But expect to pay the honey truck because folks don't want your sewage dumped next door even on public lands.

I convinced my sister she would not like living in the country where I live. Folks spread manure on fields, burn the weeks garbage in 55 gallon barrels. Some let their dogs run loose. Tractors and farm equipment bring traffic to a crawl sometimes, and all those cute animals either eat your landscaping, dump your garbage, or try to kill your pets. Folks will shoot them for all three. If you move out here you have to be comfortable with the social mores of the community, not expect them to change in order to accommodate your view of what is "appropriate".
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Old 04-19-2016, 10:01 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vintageracer View Post
Vehicles, trailers and motorhomes are DC current for their road going electrical needs. RV's are wired with stranded wire for 12 volt DC current. RV's are also wired in many situations with 120 volt AC circuits for 120 volt accessories using solid core "Romex" type house wire. The National Electric Code does have a section that relates to RV's concerning both 12 volt & 120 volt RV wiring. Article 551 requires stranded wire for 12 volt circuits but does allow "Solid OR Stranded" wire for 120 volt circuits in an RV. Check the article out at your local library or online. Lots of useful information.

VERY interesting that in the boat industry which is REGULATED you NEVER see solid core "Romex" type wiring for the 120 volt AC circuits in a boat. The marine industry uses stranded wire for both AC and DC circuits.

The potential problem with solid core wire is the issue of "vibration" which can cause a wire to come loose at termination points in a trailer or vehicle. You do not have this potential problem in a permanent none moving structure such as your home.

Lot's of RV's, trailers and motorhomes out there with LOT'S OF YEARS of road travel, camping use and sitting that were and still are wired with solid core wiring for the 120 volt AC circuits and have NEVER experienced an electrical problem. Make your own decision as to how you choose to wire the 120 volt AC circuits in your RV! Personally if I were building new RV's or re-wiring a vintage RV on the 120 volt AC circuit side I would use the proper gauge stranded wire in the circuitry instead of solid core house wire.

It all boils down to DOLLARS & CENTS. Stranded wire of proper gauge for use in 120 volt AC circuits is more expensive than solid core "Romex" wire. Since there is NO requirement in the National Electrical Code for use of stranded wire on the 120 volt AC side wiring in a RV why spend the money is probably the attitude of the RV manufacturer's. The RV industry IS meeting the current electrical code using solid core wire for their 120 volt AC wiring harness's in your RV.

One of the best places price and selection wise to purchase stranded wire for DC and AC circuits in your RV or trailer is here:

Marine Wire, Boat Wiring & Marine Electrical - BestBoatWire.com

EVERY one of the "Tiny House Trailers" I've seen on TV are wired with solid core "Romex" wire for their 120 volt AC circuits in the structure. The trailer has its standard DC current lighting and braking wiring harness already wired into the trailer prior to build.
I would think the savings on a rebuild or new build would be negligible.
I used no more than a few yards of 120vac on my Boler. Stranded all the way.
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Old 04-20-2016, 09:28 AM   #90
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I would think the savings on a rebuild or new build would be negligible.
I used no more than a few yards of 120vac on my Boler. Stranded all the way.
When you think about it a long run in a camper would be 20 ft. of wire. In my 13 ft. you could easily get from load center to either side of door with that much wire.

For what it is worth I find stranded easier to work with than Romex when pulling it behind cabinets, under seats etc. I ran three strand such as one might use for a heavy extension cord to add an outlet. Had wire of right color for hot, neutral, ground and is wrapped in protective covering.
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Old 04-21-2016, 07:30 AM   #91
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is fluff a real answer?

-
A request for information at no cost before a decision is made that will potentially have massive cost is a very prudent stand.
Take the NFPA standards for example.
(http://tinyurl.com/jp6s5td)
This country was built on many founding principles.
Blind submission to a governing body is not one of them.
If i were to allow myself to be subservient to a specific code I would definitely have a copy of them.
Since the governing body in this country must have the consent of the governed, it is incumbent upon them to present a significant level of information to us before a rule of law is made.
If you can show us where this has been provided in the case of restricting builders of tiny houses to RVIA or any other standards, then the question has been answered.
No summary judgment otherwise is to be tolerated by a caring intelligent people.
Respect is earned, not bestowed.
-


.
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Old 04-21-2016, 07:44 AM   #92
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When you think about it a long run in a camper would be 20 ft. of wire. In my 13 ft. you could easily get from load center to either side of door with that much wire.

For what it is worth I find stranded easier to work with than Romex when pulling it behind cabinets, under seats etc. I ran three strand such as one might use for a heavy extension cord to add an outlet. Had wire of right color for hot, neutral, ground and is wrapped in protective covering.
-

so, are you suggesting that the RVIA standard needs to be modified to reflect the Marine standards?


.

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Old 04-21-2016, 09:35 AM   #93
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Mother in Law

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Many years ago there was a thing called a "Mother-in-Law" house, which was a small home built in a person's back yard to give privacy,proximity, security and dignity to a parent who should not otherwise live alone.
These are largely gone now, along with corner grocery stores, due to zoning rules.

When I see these "Tiny Houses" I think of how they could serve that purpose once again offering peace of mind to families without suffering the disruption and indignity of having an elderly parent actually move in with them.

We had a couple of these backyard accommodations and corner groceries on our street growing up and I think they enhanced the value of the neighborhood... but I was too young to care about what they did to property values,guess I still am.
Both of our boys have mother-in-law apartments, thinking some day we'll need them. We certainly appreciate their thoughtfulness.
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Old 04-21-2016, 11:57 AM   #94
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When you think about it a long run in a camper would be 20 ft. of wire. In my 13 ft. you could easily get from load center to either side of door with that much wire.

For what it is worth I find stranded easier to work with than Romex when pulling it behind cabinets, under seats etc. I ran three strand such as one might use for a heavy extension cord to add an outlet. Had wire of right color for hot, neutral, ground and is wrapped in protective covering.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wessonjoe View Post
-

so, are you suggesting that the RVIA standard needs to be modified to reflect the Marine standards?



-
Nope I am stating that I don't think multi-strand will cost much more money than Romex because the wire runs are short distances.

And that round cable made from multi-strand wire is easier to pull than Romex flat case solid wire. Routes along the curved wall easier too come to think of it.
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Old 04-21-2016, 12:08 PM   #95
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As to the consent of the governed I'm pretty sure it was not consent of every person in the society. Majority of those who were and are willing to be engaged in voting and decision making process will generally set the rules for society. Heck even the mountain men had rules of the group. And wagon trains often had bylaws.


I almost ended up on the township board. By virtue of attending meetings from time to time. When some contentious land use issues were being debated I was able to grasp the arguments pro and con and ask reasonable questions. Was enough that when they had a vacancy they asked if I was interested.


Thing is other than this big issue the only person not there to present or petition the board in the last two years was someone that was just marking attend township board meeting off of their bucket list! That is what they told the board. Thanked them for their work. Said it was sort of boring.
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Old 04-22-2016, 07:41 AM   #96
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Both of our boys have mother-in-law apartments, thinking some day we'll need them. We certainly appreciate their thoughtfulness.
That's nice of the kids. My wife and I considered a mother-in-law apartment a necessity when we bought homes in the past (when our parents were living). But here's a question: Couldn't our little fiberglass trailers themselves be "parked in the back yard" as mother-in-law homes? (In the absence of local bureaucratic hostility and legal obstructionism of course.)
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Old 04-22-2016, 08:26 AM   #97
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Certainly some places allow it, and some do use their RVs that way, though probably more often as short-term guest quarters than long-term living by a parent. You need power, water, and sewer to be fully functional. In many areas hot summers and/or cold winters make an RV less attractive for long-term use, and they are not handicap-accessible.
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Old 04-25-2016, 10:03 AM   #98
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Certainly some places allow it, and some do use their RVs that way, though probably more often as short-term guest quarters than long-term living by a parent. You need power, water, and sewer to be fully functional. In many areas hot summers and/or cold winters make an RV less attractive for long-term use, and they are not handicap-accessible.
If you live rural and have a septic you might be able to add an RV dump line. I would think adding that in a municipal situation might involve an uphill struggle. Septic is your own sewer system, the one in the city is everyone's sewer system, few more rules and regulations.

Of course if you run the drain lines at the wrong pitch you will be really unhappy with your own sewer system.

Know of a couple of houses that have a parents apartment built behind the attached garage, turns a straight line ranch into an L shaped one. Entrance off of garage means access between main house and apt. through enclosed garage out of the weather. With apt "porch" facing the back yard off of the living room. Nice arrangement. Would also work with a boomerang kid too.
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