Is it really worth it?

[honda03842]

Wayne, I think the fall is our favorite part of the year, certainly the case at the beach where 50,000 people added to our little town makes for a real change. Fall leaves are truly a wonder.

[honda03842]

Maybe early color this year.

It's been amazingly cool for August, 69 projected high for Wednesday. There has not been a single heat wave this year, (3 days above 90). Of course the weatherman speak about pleasant weather and it is but quite different from prior predictions of warming.

[MC1]

Originally Posted by honda03842

Wayne,

I was surprised by your comment but do understand it. Sometimes what we do is not conscious, that goes for our camping style to an extent.

Sometimes I think it is a case of getting a RVing time out Norm.

My dad was an educator and had lots of holiday time. He also had an RV sales business on the side and traveled to Michigan, Wisconsin, Indiana, etc to pick up new trailers. By the time my sis and I were 13 years old we spent 100's of travel hours in the back seat of the family sedan. To the east coast every year, Florida, California, BC, and much more. No little league for me cause we were off down the road somewhere with a trailer in tow.

Then as a teen my dad started a trailer club that grew to 50 trailers. It was fun with the other teens but after that I had enough of RVing.

I't wasn't until mid life I got back into camping and that was not a trailer but a Eureka tent. Wanted to experience the outdoors. Finally moved up to a Coleman Pop Up and now the TT. For the present I guess you could say we are taking a break for now but I can see the call of the road will get our RV wheels turning again soon.

[Rob Outlaw]

Wayne that really looks like a nice project you have going on there, well done indeed! And thanks for you thoughts and comments. I hope your can get out on a road/camping trip soon too.

As always Norm & Ginny invaluable commentary on so many levels throughout this thread.

I'm not quite sure we could do what you're doing in the size camper you have however. For one I'm a restless sleeper, so we need at least a queen bed (what we currently have in our T@b) and ideally the bed arrangement would be lengthwise to the trailer so no one has to crawl over the other in the middle of the night. Neither of us are ready to retire, so for now its weekend warriors or grabbing a week or two off which for two self employed people is easier said than done. Since starting this conversation it has given us much time to ponder and discuss the situation in depth. To the point its highly unlikely either of us are willing to give up camping, but how we proceed is the next big question. And for what we want and think we need the price of admission becomes a bit steeper.

Since we live in the northern rockies with very volatile weather extremes especially when camping in the shoulder seasons, let along winter road trips that brings our selection down to two campers, the Escape 5 TO and the Oliver Elite II. Stick built conventional trailers are not an option. Cutting to the chase our preferred trailer is the Oliver, justifying the investment is the hard part. But looking down the road in a few years I could see us spending months on end in the thing, maybe never full timing but certainly taking extended trips a few times a year.

For us camping and the subsequent camper is a means to an end, that being the adventure often in wild places. Sometimes its hiking in the mountains or deserts, biking through the Tetons, or kayaking Bowman Lake in Glacier NP. I also make my living as a professional photographer so being close to these pristine and beautiful areas is often part of the process. For those with an interest in photography and wild places here is a link to how I spend some of my time: www.roboutlawphotography.com

I agree with you both regarding camping at peak seasons. Last year we were down in southern UT, south of Moab in Windwhistle campground on BLM land. A very nice campground BTW, but went up to Arches for a day of hiking. This was in May and never again will we do that. Its as if we were in Panama City Beach, FL at spring break. We did two hikes that day, Delicate Arch and then out to Double O Arch, both felt as though we were in a steady marching stream of ants. People were parked up to a mile or two away from the trailhead. Neither of us were prepared for this on any level.

It sounds like Norm & Ginny have found a better way of dealing with this.

Thanks again.

[Rob Outlaw]

Wayne, thats quite the interesting background you came from, thanks for sharing. Your path has pretty much echoed ours, tents, then pop ups, then the T@b. Whats next?

[honda03842]

Wayne,

I do understand time outs. You see it in organized kid's sports these days where children virtually play as much as a major leaguer driven by the sports system. Too much of anything can be harmful. We take our 4 month break each year.

Another thought as I write this and not necessarily referring to your comments, it's not simply camping, but living and exploring, sharing good times together.

One of the best aspects of retiring is it's your time.

[MC1]

Originally Posted by Rob Outlaw

Wayne, thats quite the interesting background you came from, thanks for sharing. Your path has pretty much echoed ours, tents, then pop ups, then the T@b. Whats next?

Whats next? Good question Rob.



Like most folks I thought the trend was to go bigger. I always thought there was 34' Airstream in our future but my thoughts lately have been towards a smallish Bigfoot (or similar). Back issues keep my from dealing with anything heavy and there is an advantage to having a smallish lightweight with that in mind.

[Rob Outlaw]

Originally Posted by MC1

Like most folks I thought the trend was to go bigger. I always thought there was 34' Airstream in our future but my thoughts lately have been towards a smallish Bigfoot (or similar). Back issues keep my from dealing with anything heavy and there is an advantage to having a smallish lightweight with that in mind.

Now thats a big a camper! I'm sure its very nice though. The AS interiors are very cool. For us I know the Oliver is as big as we would ever go. Given some of the places we get into, small is important.

[honda03842]

Wayne, Our Seattle son is considering a Bigfoot as his next trailer. Do you think they are Odyssey tow-able? When a WD system is added to an Odyssey/minivan is the vehicle's core stiffened?

[Rob Outlaw]

Norm, to my way of thinking aside from the weight issues, the narrowest of the Bigfoot trailers is a full 8 ft in width and it goes up from there. Below is a link to their spec sheet. As you can see the dry weight of the smallest trailer is approximately 3100 lbs and again it goes up from their. Hitch weights can be as high as nearly 500 lbs ± which I would think might over heat passenger car tires due to the extra load on long distances.

If it were me I wouldn't do it. Hope this helps.

2500 Series Travel Trailers - Bigfoot RV - Truck Campers & Travel Trailers - Recreational Vehicle Manufacturer

[honda03842]

Thanks Rob,

I knew they were big but I was surprised by the shape of the Bigfoots, I expected something more rounded. I thought they were really big versions of Bolers, insulated for Canada.

We are sticking with our Scamp but our son, who's hoping to retire early, likes the Bigfoot.

[MC1]

Originally Posted by honda03842

Wayne, Our Seattle son is considering a Bigfoot as his next trailer. Do you think they are Odyssey tow-able? When a WD system is added to an Odyssey/minivan is the vehicle's core stiffened?

Norm, I know the Bigfoots are wide. I guess that is one reason we are attracted to them (roomy inside). The down side is aerodynamics are not the best but better than most stickies.

There are 100's of Oddys towing TT's in Ontario using WDH's. Many would be towing upwards of 500lb+ tongue weights. I know the pro set up ones get a custom hitch or the OEM class III gets an extra support bar which firms up the back ends. I haven't heard of any negative issues with these setups. Best to check with the hitch experts that are doing it or some of the owners at Airforms.com.

Rob, as far as I know the Oddy's P tires work fine for towing. In some cases a lower profile performance tire is used. We use stock V rated performance tires on our car with a WDH/600lb tongue weight. We don't exceed any of the car's tire, payload, or wheel bearing specs.

The 34' Airstream in the image above was towed by a Dodge sedan for a number of years. I believe it had stock, P, high performance tires. Note it also had other mods.

[Rob Outlaw]

Several years ago we considered a Bigfoot, they are nice inside. Far better than the vast majority of travel trailers I have seen and much roomier than the vast majority (perhaps all) of the FG TT. Very good craftsmanship and nice choice of materials. You wouldn't mistake one of them for an Airstream by any means but still nice. They are not the most aerodynamic of the FG TT by any means. At the time we owned an 04 Tundra Double Cab with 4.7 L engine. It didn't have the best torque or HP rating by any stretch of the imagination but still a sizable TV. The salesman at the time flat out discouraged us from buying the BF using this truck as a TV.

A couple of years later we bought our T@b and I kid you not this truck at times absolutely struggled to tow this small TT at max of 2000 lbs fully loaded. God forbid if we hit a head wind with any sort of hill climbs. I can remember driving back through NM once heading east to west and pedal to the medal going downhill all we could get out of the truck was 55-60 mph on I-40 towing our T@b while dipping down to almost single digit MPG. It was a lesson learned for us.

I guess what I am making an effort to say, and I really hope this does not come off as a snarky condescending comment its not meant to be that way, but I have a hard time understanding why RV'ers go long (deluxe) on the camper but insist on going short (minimal) with the TV. Yet I see this time and again. And this does not even begin to address the safety issue. Its one thing to get the rig going, but its another to stop it, let alone in an emergency situation. I can count a fistful of times I have have been in these situations to, and am convinced if I had been towing my T@b with our Outback (even though its towing capacity exceeds by some margin our camper) I wouldn't be here typing this note to tell about it right now. If you've ever seen a wreck out on the highway with towing rigs it ain't pretty. Effectively we are all in charge of a lethal weapon while out motoring around the countryside with other peoples safety to consider above and beyond ours. Pushing the capability of the TV to the limits of its specs seems short on wisdom at best. Personally I don't feel comfortable if my TV is not heavier by some margin than the whats being towed especially at highway speeds otherwise you potentially have the tail wagging the dog. Combined with bad road conditions and you have a recipe for disaster. Granted there is a limit to this equation.

In many ways this part of the conversation comes full circle to my original reason for posting the topic. I sincerely hope these comments don't offend anyone, they are not directed at anyone in particular just generalized comments on the subject.

rob

Originally Posted by honda03842

Thanks Rob,

I knew they were big but I was surprised by the shape of the Bigfoots, I expected something more rounded. I thought they were really big versions of Bolers, insulated for Canada.

We are sticking with our Scamp but our son, who's hoping to retire early, likes the Bigfoot.

[honda03842]

Originally Posted by Rob Outlaw

Several years ago we considered a Bigfoot, they are nice inside. Far better than the vast majority of travel trailers I have seen and much roomier than the vast majority (perhaps all) of the FG TT. Very good craftsmanship and nice choice of materials. You wouldn't mistake one of them for an Airstream by any means but still nice. They are not the most aerodynamic of the FG TT by any means. At the time we owned an 04 Tundra Double Cab with 4.7 L engine. It didn't have the best torque or HP rating by any stretch of the imagination but still a sizable TV. The salesman at the time flat out discouraged us from buying the BF using this truck as a TV.

A couple of years later we bought our T@b and I kid you not this truck at times absolutely struggled to tow this small TT at max of 2000 lbs fully loaded. God forbid if we hit a head wind with any sort of hill climbs. I can remember driving back through NM once heading east to west and pedal to the medal going downhill all we could get out of the truck was 55-60 mph on I-40 towing our T@b while dipping down to almost single digit MPG. It was a lesson learned for us.

I guess what I am making an effort to say, and I really hope this does not come off as a snarky condescending comment its not meant to be that way, but I have a hard time understanding why RV'ers go long (deluxe) on the camper but insist on going short (minimal) with the TV. Yet I see this time and again. And this does not even begin to address the safety issue. Its one thing to get the rig going, but its another to stop it, let alone in an emergency situation. I can count a fistful of times I have have been in these situations to, and am convinced if I had been towing my T@b with our Outback (even though its towing capacity exceeds by some margin our camper) I wouldn't be here typing this note to tell about it right now. If you've ever seen a wreck out on the highway with towing rigs it ain't pretty. Effectively we are all in charge of a lethal weapon while out motoring around the countryside with other peoples safety to consider above and beyond ours. Pushing the capability of the TV to the limits of its specs seems short on wisdom at best. Personally I don't feel comfortable if my TV is not heavier by some margin than the whats being towed especially at highway speeds otherwise you potentially have the tail wagging the dog. Combined with bad road conditions and you have a recipe for disaster. Granted there is a limit to this equation.

In many ways this part of the conversation comes full circle to my original reason for posting the topic. I sincerely hope these comments don't offend anyone, they are not directed at anyone in particular just generalized comments on the subject.

rob

Rob,

Our son is planning to tow a Bigfoot with a truck but I suspect he may reconsider after seeing the Odyssey.

I found your description of towing a T@B with a Tundra interesting and thought provoking, partially because the Tundra's V-8 has about the same output as our Odyssey's V-6.

At first I thought the T@B must have a high coefficient of drag, loading down your truck. Then I realized the typical truck has a coefficient of drag of 0.6 while the typical small SUV has a coefficient of drag less than 0.4. As a result it takes about 50% more horsepower to simply move the truck through the air. Most of the energy required to move a vehicle on the flat is about pushing air.

I wonder about the T@B's coefficient of drag. It's unfortunate that these numbers are not available. However I suspect the rounded trailers are more aerodynamic, apparently Odysseys easily tow Airstreams.

We towed our Scamp 16 with a CRV for 7 years, all over the country in all kinds of conditions and never had an issue or felt unsafe, even with 2/3rds of the horsepower of the Tundra. Of course the CRV weighed 50% less than the truck so all the horsepower was not needed to overcome the higher coefficient of drag or weight of the truck.

I think it's important for all of us to understand the characteristics of our vehicles and why they work and don't work.

As to the Odyssey it has a relatively low coefficient of drag, about 60% of a truck. It's weakness, like a truck, is that it has a big frontal area, something a CRV does not have. I am rather curious to see how the Odyssey tows our Scamp in comparison to the CRV.

Thank you for prompting me to think further about trucks, our CRV and the Odyssey. If I were younger and not busy on the road I'd love to look intot the coefficient of drag of trailers.

As to braking, the goal is to have a trailer with brakes and a tow vehicle with brakes that work together to stop together. A truck may have larger swept area but it weighs a lot more and needs larger brakes to simply stop the truck.

Thanks again for making me think about this from a different perspective, I've never owned a truck and rarely think about them. I know this will result in thoughts from the truck owners and that's good.

Safe travels.

[MC1]

Originally Posted by honda03842

Rob
I found your description of towing a T@B with a Tundra interesting and thought provoking, partially because the Tundra's V-8 has about the same output as our Odyssey's V-6.

I too founds Robs account of interest. It does show the limitations of some vehicles (due to physics) even though there is a perception, or expectation that they would perform better as a TV.

Of course Rob has opened the door on a topic that has been talked about and kicked around on forums and at campfires for decades.

There is one video that sticks in my mind that shows how well a mid sized vehicle that weighs less than the trailer has amazing stability, driveabilty and great towing performance .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hmg3A5l9s0M

Note to TV's physics, high end hitch, trailer type (it's physics) and set up contribute to the overall, outstanding performance.

[Frederick L. Simson]

Originally Posted by Rob Outlaw

RV camping, is it really worth the expense we go through to pursue this activity?

...For the rest of us weekend warriors and perhaps once a year vacationers for a week or two at most (usually) does the expense justify the means? I'm starting to wonder.

...Over a 10 year period this $60,000 equates to $200 per nights stay figuring 30 days out per year, yet I know my wife and I have never come close to achieving this many days out. And this doesn't even figure in the camp fees, gas, and other items. So for those of us who aren't hitting roughly half those days we're now looking at $400 ± days and nights.

Not once have we ever staid in motel/hotels that cost $200 let alone upwards of $400. My fanny puckers at $100 or more.

By comparison the median price of a home in the US is $273,000 averaged out over a 30 year period comes to a whopping $22 per day, which does not include taxes, insurance, repairs and maintenance etc. So lets say we double that figure which would probably be excessive yet still nowhere near what the RV/camping lifestyle cost.

...In the last couple of years my wife and I have take a few road trips, mostly in the offseason (i.e. winter for us) and were amazed at how relaxed they seemed by comparison to RV camping.

Don't get me wrong, we both still love to camp…
...Am I missing something in the thought process?

Are you missing something?!?

Is RV'ing a commodity, like a gallon of gas or a loaf of bread? Something we all have to buy, so let's get it at the lowest cost possible? Or is RV'ing a decision, like a trip to Disneyland, or a move to another place for a job, or whether to go to College? Something you don't really HAVE TO but you do it anyway? This seems to be the yin and yang of the discussion thus far.

When I was 8 years old our family (Mom, Dad, me, and 7 siblings) got up at 0-dark-30 to get the morning preparations for 10 people completed by 1st light. Our once-every-4-years vacation trip was at hand, and the 1960 Pontiac Catalina Station Wagon had pod on the roof rack packed and loaded the evening before. Being somewhat low in the family caste, my place was in the rear-facing 3rd row seat.

We were in for 3 days on the road, from a small town just east of Syracuse, New York, to ultimately visit my maternal grandparents' 160 acre farm just west of Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. The first night was a sleepover with Aunt Belle's (Mom's sister) family in western Ohio. The second night was 2 adjoining Motel rooms somewhere on I-44 between Rollo & Springfield, Missouri. We would arrive at the farm on a long red-dirt (mostly sand) road usually by late afternoon of the 3rd day.

Soon it's lunchtime somewhere in the very middle of Ohio, at a roadside rest area on US Highway 30. Coolers & picnic basket hauled from the foot-well of the 3rd row (Little kids don't need much leg room.) to the picnic table. Paper Plates. Styrofoam cups.


Coming out of the restroom, I see "IT".

A 1959 Shasta 15' travel trailer, pulled by a large Plymouth sedan.
(Que the bright lights and Heavenly Choir breathing a serene chord.
Picture Nicolas & Tacy Collinni seeing their 1953 New Moon for the very 1st time.)
The retired couple were just settling into the bench of their picnic table, the wife handing her husband a FRESH. HOT. CUP. of Coffee, in regular looking dishes like at home, with silverware and everything!



(Ally McBeal record scratch)
Fast forward to 2004, on an industrial neighborhood street. At the curb is a 1978 Fiber Stream with a "For Sale" sign taped to the side. An instant recollection of the earlier memory indelibly etched into my brain.

Keeping a lifelong promise to my 8 year old self? Oh, yeah... Definitely worth it. Indeed it's priceless.

[MC1]

Fred.... A great story!

[Jared J]

Originally Posted by Rob Outlaw

Several years ago we considered a Bigfoot, they are nice inside. Far better than the vast majority of travel trailers I have seen and much roomier than the vast majority (perhaps all) of the FG TT. Very good craftsmanship and nice choice of materials. You wouldn't mistake one of them for an Airstream by any means but still nice. They are not the most aerodynamic of the FG TT by any means. At the time we owned an 04 Tundra Double Cab with 4.7 L engine. It didn't have the best torque or HP rating by any stretch of the imagination but still a sizable TV. The salesman at the time flat out discouraged us from buying the BF using this truck as a TV.



A couple of years later we bought our T@b and I kid you not this truck at times absolutely struggled to tow this small TT at max of 2000 lbs fully loaded. God forbid if we hit a head wind with any sort of hill climbs. I can remember driving back through NM once heading east to west and pedal to the medal going downhill all we could get out of the truck was 55-60 mph on I-40 towing our T@b while dipping down to almost single digit MPG. It was a lesson learned for us.



I guess what I am making an effort to say, and I really hope this does not come off as a snarky condescending comment its not meant to be that way, but I have a hard time understanding why RV'ers go long (deluxe) on the camper but insist on going short (minimal) with the TV. Yet I see this time and again. And this does not even begin to address the safety issue. Its one thing to get the rig going, but its another to stop it, let alone in an emergency situation. I can count a fistful of times I have have been in these situations to, and am convinced if I had been towing my T@b with our Outback (even though its towing capacity exceeds by some margin our camper) I wouldn't be here typing this note to tell about it right now. If you've ever seen a wreck out on the highway with towing rigs it ain't pretty. Effectively we are all in charge of a lethal weapon while out motoring around the countryside with other peoples safety to consider above and beyond ours. Pushing the capability of the TV to the limits of its specs seems short on wisdom at best. Personally I don't feel comfortable if my TV is not heavier by some margin than the whats being towed especially at highway speeds otherwise you potentially have the tail wagging the dog. Combined with bad road conditions and you have a recipe for disaster. Granted there is a limit to this equation.



In many ways this part of the conversation comes full circle to my original reason for posting the topic. I sincerely hope these comments don't offend anyone, they are not directed at anyone in particular just generalized comments on the subject.



rob

Agreed. We're on the same page. I feel the 500# 4x8 trailer is enough behind my car, while others think it pulls a scamp fine. I just don't see it as I'm down shifting to fifth on plenty of hills, and even fourth on a fair amount. I would be in third most of the time with a scamp.

It doesn't happen often, but the 19' has made the titan work a little sometimes. I could only imagine that in a 4 cylinder pickup. Second gear would be a miracle.

As for the original topic, so far it's cost me about $600 a day to camp. The economics of it were never the point and likely will never be able to be penciled out. Until I can find a motel where I'm relaxing in the woods with wildlife running around, birds chirping, fish jumping, and a cold beer in my hand, it doesn't matter.


Sent from my iPhone using Fiberglass RV

[Rob Outlaw]

Norm

You make some intelligent and well informed points. While I am no expert at any this its been my understanding torque plays a much bigger part rather than horsepower for towing, something smaller car based TV's lack (as a rule) compared to the vast majority of trucks and SUV's. And its not just taking off from the start where torque becomes more beneficial either. We now have a Ford F150 Eco Boost which is no doubt way over kill for the T@b but the difference regardless of terrain and conditions is on an order of magnitude compared to the Tundra we had. At times I am astonished at this trucks composure even towing up large hills. As often as not it rarely comes out of 6th gear. Effortless would be understatement while getting much better gas mileage at the same time.

Now how much the coefficient of wind drag comes into play vs HP and torque sounds like a science project, albeit an interesting one. But a few years back when we were struggling with this I did make some comparisons with our Subaru OB which by any measure had way more HP per vehicle weight combined compared to the Tundra. Comparing torque per vehicle weight became a bit more nebulous.

Regardless I love trucks for everything they can do and make no mistake they have come long long way from the days of yore. We actually find our F150 more pleasurable to drive than our Subaru OB though a bit more difficult to park in crowded areas. I suspect this will sound like blasphemy to many on the forum but I am dead serious about this statement. Plus they can haul so much stuff. Ok so it doesn't get as good gas mileage on the open road out of tow, but on a few trips we have edged up to 21, 22, 23 MPG per tank while driving intermountain roads out west. I hear the new Ram 1500 Diesel blows the F150 EB out of the water for gas mileage too.

Regarding braking, you're right about trailer and TV brakes. But if your trailer is way heavier than your TV and under emergency conditions make no mistake that trailer can outrun your TV, its just the laws of physics. Semi trucks are a great example of jackknifing on the road. Just something to think about.

rob

Originally Posted by honda03842

Rob,

I found your description of towing a T@B with a Tundra interesting and thought provoking, partially because the Tundra's V-8 has about the same output as our Odyssey's V-6.

At first I thought the T@B must have a high coefficient of drag, loading down your truck. Then I realized the typical truck has a coefficient of drag of 0.6 while the typical small SUV has a coefficient of drag less than 0.4. As a result it takes about 50% more horsepower to simply move the truck through the air. Most of the energy required to move a vehicle on the flat is about pushing air.

I wonder about the T@B's coefficient of drag. It's unfortunate that these numbers are not available. However I suspect the rounded trailers are more aerodynamic, apparently Odysseys easily tow Airstreams.

We towed our Scamp 16 with a CRV for 7 years, all over the country in all kinds of conditions and never had an issue or felt unsafe, even with 2/3rds of the horsepower of the Tundra. Of course the CRV weighed 50% less than the truck so all the horsepower was not needed to overcome the higher coefficient of drag or weight of the truck.

I think it's important for all of us to understand the characteristics of our vehicles and why they work and don't work.

As to the Odyssey it has a relatively low coefficient of drag, about 60% of a truck. It's weakness, like a truck, is that it has a big frontal area, something a CRV does not have. I am rather curious to see how the Odyssey tows our Scamp in comparison to the CRV.

Thank you for prompting me to think further about trucks, our CRV and the Odyssey. If I were younger and not busy on the road I'd love to look intot the coefficient of drag of trailers.

As to braking, the goal is to have a trailer with brakes and a tow vehicle with brakes that work together to stop together. A truck may have larger swept area but it weighs a lot more and needs larger brakes to simply stop the truck.

Thanks again for making me think about this from a different perspective, I've never owned a truck and rarely think about them. I know this will result in thoughts from the truck owners and that's good.

Safe travels.

[Rob Outlaw]

Wayne watched the video, cool but it sure bust the hell out of my original budget of $60 grand±, LOL. That combined outfit had to be worth way more than double. And what we didn't get to see, thank goodness, was a response to emergencies. Just a thought. Thanks for linking.

rob

Originally Posted by MC1

I too founds Robs account of interest. It does show the limitations of some vehicles (due to physics) even though there is a perception, or expectation that they would perform better as a TV.

Of course Rob has opened the door on a topic that has been talked about and kicked around on forums and at campfires for decades.

There is one video that sticks in my mind that shows how well a mid sized vehicle that weighs less than the trailer has amazing stability, driveabilty and great towing performance .

Note to TV's physics, high end hitch, trailer type (it's physics) and set up contribute to the overall, outstanding performance.