Lil Snoozy vs Scamp discussion (split from Classifieds) - Page 7 - Fiberglass RV


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Old 06-20-2012, 11:07 PM   #85
GPJ
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Originally Posted by floyd View Post
Lighten up!...That was a joke to make a point...
The RVIA exists solely for the purpose of collecting fees from manufacturers to "certify" what Scamp is already doing. They charge according to the number of units produced... A flat fee of a few thousand dollars per year plus a couple hundred dollars per unit. They do not inspect each trailer. It amounts to a pledge from the trailer manufacturer with fees attached for the privilege of making it!

Here is their website...The Recreation Vehicle Industry Association: RVIA Main Site Home

I have had fiberglass trailers both with and without a badge and none has been better built or shown better quality control than my Scamp.
IMHO... The RVIA would be simply irrelevant except for the additional cost.
BTW... I can find no currently manufactured moulded fiberglass trailer with a current membership. I checked for... Escape,Trillium, Scamp, Casita, even Eggcamper,LiL Snoozy and Weiscraft (little Joe)
Floyd:

I have long enjoyed your posts and as a long time lurker on this board just felt like getting involved in this discussion in a small way. I can see and am sympathetic to the point you are making but respectfully have a different view of what certification provides.

As I understand it, the certification shows that the certification agency inspected the design, the components, and certain sample units to ensure compliance with safety standards, etc. The manufacturer promises to always build to that standard with certified components (for any product it affixes the certification seal to) and occasionally the certification agency turns up unannounced and inspects a couple of production units to keep everyone honest. Similarly, standards evolve as time goes by to reflect best practices and manufacturers must meet those new standards to maintain certification. As I can't fully inspect or understand every component of a product I buy, I want that 3rd party certification whether I am buying a toaster or a trailer so that I am sure that it meets current safety standards. But that's me - to each his own.

I do agree that some parts of the fees charged may be for other reasons that are not related to quality or safety and aren't important to me personally as a consumer. For example, I really don't need the expensive RVIA commercials extolling the virtues of RVing. But then again, a healthy RV industry means improved resale values, so there might be some value in it for some.

I haven't researched the US manufacturers, but I do know that Canadian built Escape is QAI certified to CSA standards, and I would expect that the Outback Triliums (also made in Canada) would also be QAI or CSA certified. It seems to be more of a requirement in Canada to have these certifications in place. Now you have gotten me interested in the US situation and I will add this to my list of items to explore. I must admit that I just assumed that all these trailers would carry the certification seal.

Anyway, thanks for raising the subject and giving me something to think about and investigate before I purchase.
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Old 06-20-2012, 11:19 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Mike Magee View Post
There appear to be only 4 RVIA members in Canada: Great West Van Conversions, Leisure Travel/Triple E, Pleasure-Way, and Roadtrek.
Yes, most Canadian manufacturers join the equivalent Canadian Recreational Vehicle Association (CRVA) as they sell primarily in Canada. Some US manufacturers are also members of the CRVA. I read recently that the RVIA and the CRVA are meeting with a view to synchronizing standards. Right now there are differences between US and Canadian standards that make it more costly for manufacturers to build units to be sold in both markets.
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Old 06-20-2012, 11:28 PM   #87
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I believe the American equivalent of the CSA when it comes to trailers falls under the FMVSS National Highway Traffic Safety Administration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I consider the RVIA badge to be the equivalent of the Good Houskeeping Seal of Approval.
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Old 06-21-2012, 12:01 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by GPJ View Post
Floyd:

I have long enjoyed your posts and as a long time lurker on this board just felt like getting involved in this discussion in a small way. I can see and am sympathetic to the point you are making but respectfully have a different view of what certification provides.

As I understand it, the certification shows that the certification agency inspected the design, the components, and certain sample units to ensure compliance with safety standards, etc. The manufacturer promises to always build to that standard with certified components (for any product it affixes the certification seal to) and occasionally the certification agency turns up unannounced and inspects a couple of production units to keep everyone honest. Similarly, standards evolve as time goes by to reflect best practices and manufacturers must meet those new standards to maintain certification. As I can't fully inspect or understand every component of a product I buy, I want that 3rd party certification whether I am buying a toaster or a trailer so that I am sure that it meets current safety standards. But that's me - to each his own.

I do agree that some parts of the fees charged may be for other reasons that are not related to quality or safety and aren't important to me personally as a consumer. For example, I really don't need the expensive RVIA commercials extolling the virtues of RVing. But then again, a healthy RV industry means improved resale values, so there might be some value in it for some.

I haven't researched the US manufacturers, but I do know that Canadian built Escape is QAI certified to CSA standards, and I would expect that the Outback Triliums (also made in Canada) would also be QAI or CSA certified. It seems to be more of a requirement in Canada to have these certifications in place. Now you have gotten me interested in the US situation and I will add this to my list of items to explore. I must admit that I just assumed that all these trailers would carry the certification seal.

Anyway, thanks for raising the subject and giving me something to think about and investigate before I purchase.
The RVIA is modelled much closer to JD Powers than to Underwriters Laboratories (UL) though it admitedly is not precisely like either.
I find that subscriber organizations have compromised their integrity by their very nature. They certainly are not as widely respected as the SAE or UL for that reason and others.
That is not to say that the RVIA has no value, it's just that the value is not sufficient to justify the cost to an informed consumer.
Most Moulded Fiberglass manufacturers agree... and so do not subscribe. They generally follow the same best practices and depend on their reputations to obviate the need for an RVIA badge.
I'm sure they would all proudly display the badge if it were awarded rather than purchased.
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Old 06-21-2012, 12:08 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Roy in TO View Post
I believe the American equivalent of the CSA when it comes to trailers falls under the FMVSS National Highway Traffic Safety Administration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I consider the RVIA badge to be the equivalent of the Good Houskeeping Seal of Approval.
The RVIA certification seems to go well beyond FMVSS - that deals with the vehicle on the road part of things. RVIA maintains an inspection program to monitor compliance of the plumbing, heating, fire and life safety, and the electrical systems of the RVs manufactured by its members in conformance to the ANSI/NFPA 1192 standard for RVs. ANSI/NFPA 1192 is the US version of the Canadian CSA-Z240 standard.

Pretty interesting stuff.
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Old 06-21-2012, 12:09 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Roy in TO View Post
I believe the American equivalent of the CSA when it comes to trailers falls under the FMVSS National Highway Traffic Safety Administration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I consider the RVIA badge to be the equivalent of the Good Houskeeping Seal of Approval.
Except that the good housekeeping seal is awarded and not purchased by subscription and compliance.
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Old 06-21-2012, 12:24 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by floyd View Post
The RVIA is modelled much closer to JD Powers than to Underwriters Laboratories (UL) though it admitedly is not precisely like either.
I find that subscriber organizations have compromised their integrity by their very nature. They certainly are not as widely respected as the SAE or UL for that reason and others.
That is not to say that the RVIA has no value, it's just that the value is not sufficient to justify the cost to an informed consumer.
Most Moulded Fiberglass manufacturers agree... and so do not subscribe. They generally follow the same best practices and depend on their reputations to obviate the need for an RVIA badge.
I'm sure they would all proudly display the badge if it were awarded rather than purchased.
Good points. I too have some qualms when it comes subscriber organizations. In Canada the certification agency (QAI, CSA, etc.) is a separate entity from the CRVA (most Canadian RVs get 2 seals - one from QAI/CSA and one from the CRVA). That separation gives it a bit more credibility perhaps. An award/merit based system would work wonderfully if someone would pay for it. To your knowledge, is anyone independently and objectively rating trailers?
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Old 06-21-2012, 12:37 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by GPJ View Post
Good points. I too have some qualms when it comes subscriber organizations. In Canada the certification agency (QAI, CSA, etc.) is a separate entity from the CRVA (most Canadian RVs get 2 seals - one from QAI/CSA and one from the CRVA). That separation gives it a bit more credibility perhaps. An award/merit based system would work wonderfully if someone would pay for it. To your knowledge, is anyone independently and objectively rating trailers?

Isn't the CSA a government agency?
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Old 06-21-2012, 01:14 AM   #93
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Isn't the CSA a government agency?
Perhaps surprisingly, it seems not. The CSA is a not-for-profit association that is accredited by the Standards Council of Canada to develop standards, etc. The Standards Council of Canada (SCC) in turn is a crown (gov't owned) corporation which reports to the government through the Minister of Industry. The SCC oversees Canada's National Standards System.
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Old 06-21-2012, 01:55 AM   #94
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I acknowledge your corrections. Thank you.
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Old 06-21-2012, 10:12 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by GPJ View Post
Good points. I too have some qualms when it comes subscriber organizations. In Canada the certification agency (QAI, CSA, etc.) is a separate entity from the CRVA (most Canadian RVs get 2 seals - one from QAI/CSA and one from the CRVA). That separation gives it a bit more credibility perhaps. An award/merit based system would work wonderfully if someone would pay for it. To your knowledge, is anyone independently and objectively rating trailers?
I guess the best vetting of any moulded fiberglass trailer is accomplished right here and on related sites. That is best done when all sides are heard.
As for objectivity?? Perhaps it is substituted by hearing the enthusiastic defense and panning of each make with a little Pro Bono Quid Pro Quo...
So Caveat Emptor...but Carpe Diem 'cause Tempus Fugit!
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Old 01-19-2013, 03:39 PM   #96
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Hi Ken: Am new to this board (my 1st reply/comment) and joined for the purpose of information and comraderie. I am in the market for a FG trailer and Lil Snoozie caught my eye. Since you have one and are going to use a Subaru as a tow vehicle, my question goes out to you. How is that working out for you at this point? I have an Outback wagon myself and thought it might work out fine providing the tongue weight is keep below 200 lbs and when on the road traveling will keep the tanks in the trailer empty. I did call the manufacturer and talked with the owner and he said many are using Subarus as a tow vehicle with the "Snoozer." So any information you can give me on the Snoozer or your Subaru would be much appreciated.
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Old 01-19-2013, 04:39 PM   #97
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Ginny,
while you wait, here are some numbers to read from an owner.
Ford Escape or Jeep 3.0L Diesel

more on his setup here
Ford Escape or Jeep 3.0L Diesel
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Old 01-19-2013, 09:05 PM   #98
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Hi Ken: Am new to this board (my 1st reply/comment) and joined for the purpose of information and comraderie. I am in the market for a FG trailer and Lil Snoozie caught my eye. Since you have one and are going to use a Subaru as a tow vehicle, my question goes out to you. How is that working out for you at this point? I have an Outback wagon myself and thought it might work out fine providing the tongue weight is keep below 200 lbs and when on the road traveling will keep the tanks in the trailer empty. I did call the manufacturer and talked with the owner and he said many are using Subarus as a tow vehicle with the "Snoozer." So any information you can give me on the Snoozer or your Subaru would be much appreciated.
I think the Snoozy's tongue/gross weight will exceed your 200/2000 weight limits, even before you put anything in it.... As for loaded tongue/traveling weight- that's been a bit of a mystery, but one owner did recently report weights of over 300/3000pounds.

Francesca
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