New Tesla Battery (PowerWall)

[honda03842]

Ron, How many batteries do you have?

[Ron Merritt]

I have 4, 6 volt AGMs. My total capacity is 400 amp hours. You can get regular lead-acids which have a bit higher capacity (440), but I wanted to avoid the maintenance of them and also wanted something that won't freeze in extreme cold temps.

[Briantb]

My first thought when I read about the battery was how much Solaris while be required to charge it.. It is obviously meant to be changed on grid primarily.
We are a way from home right now go I will check our power production numbers when I get home. We love off grid with a small solve system - 815 watts of solar to a 1440amp hour battery bank which is considered tiny.
I don't think I could charge one.. But again I'm in camping mode not solar mode right now

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[Briantb]

And obviously from the typos not computer mode

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[Carol H]

[QUOTE=Ron Merritt;520257]I think all of you have missed the presentation. This device is basically for load shifting. Charge it when energy is cheap, use the power from it when energy is expensive. In many markets (but not all) the price of electricity varies by the time of day. That savings is how you get a payback on this device. The time periods are relatively short - so 4 or 5 hours use is all that is needed.


/QUOTE]

Not so sure that the particulars of the application it was designed to work for was actually missed by "all" of us. I suspect the trouble was some of us had trouble getting to a realistic affordable application of it - due to size, weight 220lbs and cost, in the relatively small fiberglass trailers most of us have and many learned long ago how to keep them completely off the grid. The suggestion being made that we all needed to learn to save the planet and minimize our needs kind of sent the topic a little off track.

Funny enough just this morning our Canadian business paper The Globe and Mail had a story about the Telsa Powerwall " Test units of the Powerwall will be installed in Canada later this year and commercial sales will begin early in 2016"

A couple of intreating items in the story where :

"The Powerwall, launched last week by Tesla chief executive officer Elon Musk, is designed to allow homeowners to store electricity generated by solar panels during the day, then use it at other times when the sun is not shining but electricity consumption is higher."

"In Canada, however, that is not likely to be the main application."

"That’s because most solar electricity generated by Canadian homeowners’ rooftop panels is sold into the power grid through Ontario’s “feed-in tariff” system. There is no incentive to save the power for personal uses, because homeowners get high prices for the electricity they deliver."

"Critics have pointed out that the relatively low capacity of these batteries means that most households would not be able to store enough power to run all their lights and appliances, unless they had several units in place. And there are competitive battery systems, although they don’t have the modern look of the Tesla units."

Don't get me wrong I admire Tesla for their work in this regard but still feel its going to be sometime and with some modifications before it is something that homeowners here are going to embrace when one considers the capital cost associated with it and the fact it is not going to supply enough to power to your home - unless you buy a number of units or due to the solar power buy back program found in most Provinces in Canada. Yes it could be used as a back up system for power outages - but suspect the average guy on the street would suggest a generater will do the same and cost far less.

I honestly think its going to take a long time and a great deal more modification in size and weight before we see it replace the simple in expensive solar systems many here are using on our relatively small trailers currently to keep off the grid.

[Bob Miller]

What can I add but.... Bazinga'

[PC Steve]

Back to Ron's load shifting comments...

I would add that a significant portion of utility costs are invested in plant that is used to meet peak loads, coldest/warmest days of the year annually, or when everyone returns from work and kicks down the ac and start dinner. Utilities would like to reduce the need for this investment, lowering overall cost/prices. Current time of day pricing is set up to shift load. Batteries, although currently uneconomic, might address the same problem, either directly by the utility or indirectly by consumer using the pricing with time of day rates.

There are probably some situation where they are cost effective now and applications will increase as technologies improve. Trailer usage is an " out of their box" application. I welcome the innovation, but I'll wait.

[honda03842]

There is presently no economical way to handle peak loads.

All the wind turbines and solar panels do little to reduce the need for traditional power solutions because when the wind turbines are stationary or the sky is cloudy (both a surprisingly large percentage of the time) the traditional power plants are still needed.

Really what these solutions do is add to the cost of energy for us all. These intermittent sources of energy are not cost effective, if they were the price of energy from them would not require government support.

[Bob Miller]

I think that conservation of resources (Hydro & fuel consumption) are higher priority reasons for alternative power sources, such as wind and solar power, than $$$ savings. Yes, it costs more, but at the end of the day there may be more fuel left for towing FGRV's and isn't that a good enough reason? LOL


BTW: Windless or cloudy days are seldom see in the Palm Springs, CA area, one of the larger wind turbine installations, it's a natural venturi.


What bothers me are the Solar Scammers that are selling/leasing systems to home owners that are poor candidates for solar collection. They tried to sell panels to my ex, who lives at the base of a mountain and gets zero sun on her south facing roof between November and March.....

[John Linck]

Originally Posted by honda03842

There is presently no economical way to handle peak loads.
Really what these solutions do is add to the cost of energy for us all. These intermittent sources of energy are not cost effective, if they were the price of energy from them would not require government support.

I'm a woodworker, so keep that in mind when judging my knowledge here. Still the low cost of tesla utility scale batteries make them seem a great way to handle peak loads, though planning from press release may be premature. Still it's exciting.

Also I gladly pay more for environmentally benign power sources. I purchased green power from my local utility for years, though I suspect it is somewhat a scam. I also super-insulated my home, bought better than energy star appliances and have all LED lighting, so you can see where I'm coming from. Our Wisconsin fish are full of mercury. I breath in the mercury too, along with who know what. Must be worse living in the East. That bothers me more than a few dollars more per month on my electric bill.

I laugh at my big city polluted air breathing relatives, commuting via SUV while avoiding gluten and shopping at Whole Foods, thinking they will be healthy.

We all make choices. A million years from now they all will be irrelevant.

John

[RogerDat]

Peak power generation is expensive for utility companies. Steady power generation is the least expensive. There is an in-between adaptive type of plant that costs less than peak but more than steady.

The biggest issue with solar and wind is storage and meeting peak demand. In large installations both solar and wind are filling the role of steady or base line power. Not peak or adaptive supply. A battery in the home that stores some of the surplus steady power has potential to allow the solar and wind to provide increased peak or adaptive power at the same cost as the steady supply. It also offers that same ability to conventional power plants.

Every home that "stored" power from steady production during the night was then available to provide for peak power as people get up and start their day it would save money no matter what the source of power was, it would also allow storing the power from overnight wind generation.

It should be noted that Spain had at least one night of low usage and good wind where their entire countries power needs were met by wind. Of course Spain has lots of mountains and coast line with good wind. Oh wait so do we! Along with the great plains where the steady breeze will blow a 1/2 full can of beverage right off the picnic table. And it is sunny in the soutwest too. Hmmm.

Most of the time the innovator that creates a market does not get it right at first. Sometimes they pave the way for the next innovator and sometimes they carry on as a major player in that market for generations. I would not bet against Tesla, the list of accomplishments the CEO has is pretty impressive.

For an RV I would think the battery pack from a auto like the Chevy Volt would be a better choice. It has a long thin profile (goes where the middle hump is in the car) so finding a place under the floor seems more likely and can withstand cold. Some supporting devices exist to prevent excessive discharge and manage charging and bypass when power is supplied by engine. Small charge cycles from regenerative braking system indicates a design that could handle partial charges well. However.... I don't get to camp enough to make a battery that costs 1/2 of what the camper does make a lot of sense. Instead of running AC come on up to northern Michigan, cool enough you don't need AC and you can swear at the flying insects for something to do if you get bored.

The solar in an RV is to provide for the limited power needs required when camping. We the consumer have a different expectation than we do in our homes. If we can afford the cost we take long hot showers or run the furnace differently at home. Having the furnace take the chill off is sufficient when camping, at home we want climate controlled. Getting cleaned up is fine when camping, at home I want to bake the aches out with a nice hot shower. I pump the water to wash clothes using electricity. Don't see washer and dryer going in my Scamp anytime soon.

I has come up before that even if solar can't replace 100% of power used in a day it extends the number of days you can remain off grid before the battery hits 50% discharge. Better battery might eventually provide a better or longer solar RV experience with less total watts of solar cells being needed.

What they develop for these home units may eventually end up filtering to camping and off grid use. Remember when alkaline batteries were only a bit better than regular and cost an arm and a leg? So I think the power wall is a good idea. At least as a starting point.

[giro53]

There are other lithium batteries on the market. Has anyone used any of them?

[giro53]

Sorry i better clarify. Other lithium batteries offered for possible trailer use.eg smart battery.

[Seldomseensmith]

I have a 7 Kw grid tied system on my 2000 sq ft house and my house is 100% electric. The system produces 100% of our power averaged over a year. There are 4 of us living in the house. 30 Kwh is an insane number for average American house consumption IMO.

[honda03842]

Originally Posted by Seldomseensmith

I have a 7 Kw grid tied system on my 2000 sq ft house and my house is 100% electric. The system produces 100% of our power averaged over a year. There are 4 of us living in the house. 30 Kwh is an insane number for average American house consumption IMO.

How much electric power do you use?

[Seldomseensmith]

We use slightly less than 30 per day but have 4 people in house. Avg. American household is 2.5 people. Plus most people are heating with gas which we don't. I guess the number isn't that crazy when you consider most peoples conservation attitudes.


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[honda03842]

Originally Posted by Seldomseensmith

We use slightly less than 30 per day but have 4 people in house. Avg. American household is 2.5 people. Plus most people are heating with gas which we don't. I guess the number isn't that crazy when you consider most peoples conservation attitudes.


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David,

It looks like you're using that 'insane' number of K watt hours per day.

Interesting when you consider you're an energy conscious person. In Florida in March we averaged 15 k-watt hrs a day. In the worse winter month we averaged 21 k-watt hrs per day. Our house is fully electric in FL.

In our trailer we average 6 k-watt hrs per day in a cold month using electricity for everything except cooking. I suspect in the trailer it's mainly electric heat.

[honda03842]

Originally Posted by Carol H

Yup, our Provincial government is offering homeowners grants for those who make the switch to Geothermal.

We have a small city close to me has put in their own Geo Thermal system running under the streets, about ten years ago and any new residential towers and business are required to tap into it.

I checked out North Vancouver, partially because I find geo-heating interesting. The Pacific coast is a good place for it with all the near surface hot spots.

It turns out that North Vancouver is heated by a hot water system powered by 16 natural gas distributed hot water plants. Geo thermo is not a significant factor, if any.

Many systems use a system like this where they provide hot water for heating throughout the city, very often using water from steam/electric power stations.

They may want you to think it's geo-thermo but I don't see it in their web site shere they focus on high efficiency gas hot water boilers.

[RogerDat]

Size, age, and design of house also has a fair amount to do with energy consumption. Smaller, newer (more energy saving built in) and things like amount of glass or high ceilings.

Takes more electric to distribute heat or provide AC to a 2000 sq. ft. house than a 1200 sq. ft. one, some of the older houses were built with much less insulation, won't have energy efficient windows etc. Cathedral ceilings create a lot of non-living space to heat and cool. Or move air through.

Parents-in-law down in Fla. had a 2 bedroom bungalow that probably cost more to keep cool than the brother-in-laws larger 3 bedroom ranch built 30 years later. Insulated thermal windows do make a difference compared to old crank up windows.

I have no idea of how much, or little the average consumer conserves energy. Seems the energy efficient bulbs are selling well, the little power usage watt meters have a ready market and are for sale at all the big box stores. Heck the guy behind me has replaced his pole barn light bulbs with really big CFL bulbs. Bulbs are the size of a small football but use a tiny fraction of the power of the 200 watt bulbs they replaced. Smaller cars, replacing furnace filters, buying additional insulation (see a lot of that at the big building supply stores).

Hard to say how many are responsible but energy consumption per capita has been steadily dropping since around 2000 and is currently at levels typical from the 1960's while our productivity per capita has been steadily rising, our home sizes are larger, and we have more cars on the road. Lord knows we have more electric gizmos! Grandkids would not have a clue how to use a manual brace & bit or rotary hand drill. "where do you plug it in or put the batteries?" or "what do you mean it has no on button?"

[honda03842]

Our NH town is mostly homes and little land to build more however they are building a small 10 home development near us and these homes are smaller than the homes made 6 years ago. We have some homes around these new ones that have plenty of rooms that I'm sure are not visited more than once a month.