Smoking Batteries (was: Battery problem in our Parkliner)

[Glenn Baglo]

Originally Posted by Ed Harris

I guess it might be nice if they would join the discussion here but I am not holding my breath that this will happen soon.

I think they would have to be out of their mind to engage with posters here.

[gmw photos]

Ed,
You make good points there. This all reminds me of part of a conversation I have had in private emails with Deryk, and that is I consider this whole RV experience as "some assembly required". Should it be this way ? Well, probably not. But it is, and it does not seem to matter what brand or price range we buy in....these danged things take continuous tinkering. I guess I'm lucky because I like to tinker and have a shop full of tools and the time to do it. So it's like I would say to anybody getting into this hobby....."be willing to learn about stuff you previously never thought about, and don't be afraid to get your hands dirty".

[accrete]

Originally Posted by gmw photos

...I consider this whole RV experience as "some assembly required". Should it be this way ? Well, probably not...

I agree on the "some assembly required" ...and it seems to go on and on at some level. Though I am not complaining! The level of fix-it items in our $125K+ (@new) Mobile Suite is waaaaaay less than the upkeep we went through for a 3 bedroom farmhouse on an acre of land! I will take trailer-honey-do-lists any day over still built one's. So a few bucks here and there to tweak something to make it more robust is ok with me.

As an FYI: I was picking up some related electrical items and i had brought in the face plate from the charger...the guy at the RV supply/repair shop said that is a high quality charger and what they replace used/broken ones with...and that it does fine with AGM battery maintenance.

[Thomas G.]

Originally Posted by Glenn Baglo

I think they would have to be out of their mind to engage with posters here.

Amen to that. Without the ignore list, I'd have left long ago.

[cpaharley2008]

Is Parkliner "RVIA" certified?

[Ed Harris]

Originally Posted by cpaharley2008

Is Parkliner "RVIA" certified?

Does not appear on the list under Parkliner.

They (the RVIA) also seem to mainly be a Lobby organization and while they talk about developing and training standards there is no detail about them that I can see?

[cpaharley2008]

If you Google The Recreation Vehicle Industry Association: Standards there a a bunch of standards for electrical and propane that these units are supposed to meet to have the certificate attached to the trailer. Possibly some of these flaws are due to lack of RVIA certification? For example propane joints must be accessible for testing for leaks and free from screws or protrusions. Perhaps there are battery guidelines we can find.

[Francesca Knowles]

Originally Posted by Glenn Baglo

I think they would have to be out of their mind to engage with posters here.

Truer words were never said.

Francesca

[cpaharley2008]

Perhaps some of our known electrical gurus can enlighten us with additional insight obtained from
ANSI/RVIA 12V-2011 - ASTM Standards on 12v systems which the RVIA community endorses and follows. We may find our answers there. It is for sale/download for $275 but I'm not buying.

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by cpaharley2008

If you Google The Recreation Vehicle Industry Association: Standards there a a bunch of standards for electrical and propane that these units are supposed to meet to have the certificate attached to the trailer. Possibly some of these flaws are due to lack of RVIA certification? For example propane joints must be accessible for testing for leaks and free from screws or protrusions. Perhaps there are battery guidelines we can find.

It appears that the RIVA works with others to develop ANSI Standards that are incorporated into standards such as the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) 1192 Standard for Recreational Vehicles, that includes the ANSI 12V Standard for Low Voltage Systems and plumbing etc.

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by Glenn Baglo

I think they would have to be out of their mind to engage with posters here.

Oh Yea! but that might be worth popping another bucket of popcorn for!

[Ed Harris]

Originally Posted by cpaharley2008

Perhaps some of our known electrical gurus can enlighten us with additional insight obtained from
ANSI/RVIA 12V-2011 - ASTM Standards on 12v systems which the RVIA community endorses and follows. We may find our answers there. It is for sale/download for $275 but I'm not buying.

Well thanks for stating the obvious.
I went directly to their website but as you say the standards are unknowable without paying up first.
Not too impressed with their motives.

It also seems that you resent someone else's experience and knowledge with an area where you are not entirely clear.
I never professed to be a Guru about anything. I have been in the Electronics field for over 30 years however and you do tend to pick up a little here and there.

I would hardly try to advise you about accounting or its regulations but I also would not mock you for your experience.

[cpaharley2008]

Ed,
I did not intend any mocking, I have no personal knowledge of anyone's expertise, other than what they post here. Some members have expressed their electrical background so I asked if they may have access to something the others do not. Just like I would not expect anyone here to recite sections of the IRC, but if asked I can provide such. We are all trying to get to the answer of the issue here, perhaps published guidelines would have that answer. I may not know the correct answer but trying to find the correct way to obtain that answer is our common goal, is it not?

[Ed Harris]

Jim

Several of us have expressed our ideas here based on extensive experience designing,implementing and troubleshooting electronic and electrical circuits and have laid out several possibilities as we see them.

There seem to be no guidelines at all either proposed or enforced in this RV business that are implemented as though they are code or even agreed upon. Almost everything is ala cart and companies just do what they decide to do often defying common sense and reason.

Until we hear from the O.P. with a verdict or diagnosis I don't think this is going anywhere else.

[Terry G]

I have to agree with the posters who strongly suggest that batteries should be in a separate box vented to the outside. Some of you may have heard that the new Boeing 787 Dreamliner was grounded because of problems concerning the batteries catching on fire. Guess what part of the solution was: Putting the batteries in a sealed box vented to the outside. Well, if it works for them...

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/15/bu...lems.html?_r=0

"He also said that the fix, which includes a new battery enclosure made of stainless steel, was not designed to contain a fire, but to keep the battery from ever having a fire to begin with, by quickly starving any flame of oxygen.
“We’ve been able to demonstrate that no fire is possible inside the enclosure,” Mr. Sinnett said. If battery were to heat up, its vaporized electrolytes would be vented directly out of the plane, he said, protecting the bay and other electronics."

[LindaK]

I sent a request to Optima's Facebook page asking if they could check out this forum and respond as they saw fit. Here is the response:

Hi Linda,

I did register on the forum, but have not been approved to post yet. I don't know how long that will take, so I did want to share with you my thoughts on that situation, having read through the thread and everyone's comments-

Safety comes first, so I need to reiterate what you posted from another thread- ALL lead-acid batteries can vent gas that is both flammable and toxic, even "sealed" and/or "maintenance-free" batteries. For that reason, lead-acid batteries should never be located in an enclosed area, unless they are in a sealed battery box vented to the outside air or they have venting ports on the batteries themselves, with hoses connected to those ports and leading to the outside air.

I was unable to see the photos in that thread, but our batteries either have vent ports to which an external hose can be attached for venting purposes or they have circular vent ports on the top of the batteries, which can vent gas in extreme situations. None of our batteries are equipped with both styles of vent ports, so if the OP had BlueTops that were venting, they were likely to be Group 34 batteries (hopefully D34M batteries in that application, although they could also be 34M batteries).

While I have seen both terms mentioned in this thread and sometimes interchangeably, "gel" batteries and "AGM" batteries are two very different technologies. All Optima batteries are AGM batteries and are not gel batteries. Gel batteries have very specific charging parameters that may not fully-charge non-gel batteries and could damage them over time. For that reason, we always recommend avoiding "gel" or even "gel/AGM" charger settings when charging our batteries.

I did verify with one of our engineers that in parallel systems, the "by the book" best way to connect a bank of batteries wired in parallel is to pull the main cables from opposite corners of the bank. This is less of an issue with two-battery banks, but becomes more of an issue with banks that contain three or more batteries. It is not just the issue of resistance in the wiring (which is relatively-minor in small banks), but the quality of the connections between the batteries themselves and the chance that one cable connection could become loose. Add more batteries (and cables) and the chances of this happening increase. If it does happen, the batteries wired in the "by the book" configuration will all be impacted equally, while batteries wired the other way will not.

However, that is not typically the issue in scenarios like this and I cannot speculate as to the exact cause of this issue in this instance with such limited information and no access to the trailer itself. I can speak in general terms to what we typically see when we do have access to more information and the applications themselves.

I may have missed something, but it seemed like it was 54 posts before I saw anyone mention specific battery voltage levels. Whenever any batteries are going into storage, the voltage level should be measured to ensure they are fully-charged when they go into storage. For our BlueTops, that would be about 13.0-13.2 volts, except for the 34M BlueTops which are fully-charged at about 12.6-12.8 volts.

If the batteries need charging, they should be charged with a battery charger, not a vehicle's charging system. Once they go into storage, the ideal scenario already mentioned by others, is to leave them connected to a quality battery maintenance device. In the event this is not possible, disconnecting the batteries from any potential draws is also acceptable.

When the batteries come out of storage, voltage levels should be checked again. If they weren't connected to a battery maintenance device, checking voltage periodically during storage is also a good idea. If the batteries need charging when they come out of storage, this should be done with a battery charger and not a vehicle's charging system.

It is theoretically possible for two batteries in a parallel bank to experience a shorted cell at the same time, but outside of a significant electrical event that would cause this to happen, it is very unlikely two in the same bank would do it on their own at the same time.

What typically happens in venting issues following storage is that the batteries somehow became deeply-discharged and sulfated. Whenever any battery is discharged below 12.4 volts and is left sitting in that state, sulfation begins to form in the battery and when that becomes significant enough, charging systems don't always respond well to that and batteries can vent.

While Danny Popp is a good friend of Optima and the 2011 Optima Ultimate Street Car Invitational winner, I am the eCare Manager. If Byron could provide a link to our website where contradictory information is posted, I would greatly appreciate it!

Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.facebook.com/optimabatteries

[Mimi Lee]

I thank everyone for your comments and suggestions. The interest and dialog in this topic was beyond anything I imagined. I just wanted to say thank you and apologize for any kerfluffle the posting may have caused. I hadn't been on the forum since last year (life with littles get busy), and when this happened thought it would be responsible to share with other owners given how potentially serious the impact could have been. It wasn't necessarily a call out of the trailer itself, but to serve as a flag to owners regarding a standard component used within it. Sorry for those who took offense, not was intended. And thanks to all for your input.

We brought the trailer into the Camper World service dept and they installed new batteries. The diagnostics indicated that one of the batteries had an internal failure, which then caused the second battery to fail. The converter was tested and their tests indicated it was working properly.

I want to say that when we contacted Chandler the morning of the incident via email, he was responsive and called very shortly afterwards, and said he'd reimburse us for new batteries. He thought it was a bad battery, and these independent service guys' assessment concurred. So we will be review how long we allow the batteries to discharge, look into the straps vs box, and monitoring humidity, and all the other input on safeguarding this from happening in the future.

Thanks again all. Be safe and have fun!

[Carol H]

NFPA® 1192 Standard on Recreational Vehicles 2011 Edition can apparently be had for free at: www.npa.com

Chapter 1 Administration
1.1 Scope
1.2 Purpose
1.3 Application
1.4 Retroactivity
1.5 Equivalency
1.6 Use of International System of Units (SI)
Chapter 2 Referenced Publications
2.1 General
2.2 NFPA Publications
2.3 Other Publications
2.4 References for Extracts in Mandatory Sections
Chapter 3 Definitions
3.1 General
3.2 NFPA Official Definitions
3.3 General Definitions
Chapter 4 General Requirements
4.1 Differing Standards
4.2 U.S. Federal Regulations
4.3 Exterior Labels
4.4 Electrical Requirements
Chapter 5 Fuel Systems and Equipment
5.1 Quality of Design and Installation
5.2 Propane Systems
5.3 Propane Piping Systems
5.4 Fuel-Burning Appliances
5.5 Venting, Ventilation, and Combustion Air
5.6 Marking Appliances (Installation and Operation Features)
5.7 Circulating Air Systems for Heating (Other Than Automotive Type)
5.8 Air Conditioning (Other Than Automotive Type)
5.9 Consumer Information
5.10 Gasoline or Diesel Fuel Systems.
5.11 Propane Vehicle Propulsion Engine Installations
Chapter 6 Fire and Life Safety Provisions
6.1 Interior Finish and Textile or Film Materials
6.2 Recreational Vehicle Means of Escape
6.3 Fire Detection Equipment
6.4 Other Considerations
6.5 Automatic Generator Starting System (AGS) Requirements
6.6 Vehicular Requirements.
Chapter 7 Plumbing Systems
7.1 Plumbing System
7.2 Plumbing Fixtures
7.3 Water Distribution Systems
7.4 Drainage Systems
7.5 Waste Holding Tanks
7.6 Vents and Venting
7.7 Plumbing System Tests
Annex A Explanatory Material
Annex B Propane Pipe Sizing
Annex C Product Listing Standards
Annex D Informational References
Index

[Francesca Knowles]

Originally Posted by Mimi Lee

I thank everyone for your comments and suggestions. The interest and dialog in this topic was beyond anything I imagined. I just wanted to say thank you and apologize for any kerfluffle the posting may have caused. I hadn't been on the forum since last year (life with littles get busy), and when this happened thought it would be responsible to share with other owners given how potentially serious the impact could have been. It wasn't necessarily a call out of the trailer itself, but to serve as a flag to owners regarding a standard component used within it. Sorry for those who took offense, not was intended. And thanks to all for your input.

We brought the trailer into the Camper World service dept and they installed new batteries. The diagnostics indicated that one of the batteries had an internal failure, which then caused the second battery to fail. The converter was tested and their tests indicated it was working properly.

I want to say that when we contacted Chandler the morning of the incident via email, he was responsive and called very shortly afterwards, and said he'd reimburse us for new batteries. He thought it was a bad battery, and these independent service guys' assessment concurred. So we will be review how long we allow the batteries to discharge, look into the straps vs box, and monitoring humidity, and all the other input on safeguarding this from happening in the future.

Thanks again all. Be safe and have fun!

Problem solved- thanks for keeping us up-to-date, Mimi!

Francesca

[Ed Harris]

Yes Thanks for letting us know.
What about enclosing the batteries?

And Francesca/Carol et al, the NFPA stuff I know is always available it is the IVIA materials we have to buy.

Thanks Though

Ed