Smoking Batteries (was: Battery problem in our Parkliner)

[floyd]

Originally Posted by cpaharley2008

Hopefully mice will not get in the trailer. Funny story about mice in my shed. I noticed that they stopped leaving their markers behind one year and was puzzled? I went out one morning to pull out my lawn tractor to cut my lawn and when I sat down on the seat, it moved? I sat up and there was this black snake curled up on my seat. I do not think my feet touched the ground on the way back to the house. I did not cut my grass that summer, hired a lawn service. No mice but I lost my use of my tractor, for awhile!!
Moral of story, do not get a snake if you want to eliminate mice.

I have a friend who has a large collection of beautifully restored antique cars. When he sees the first sign of a mouse in his building, He starts two or three cars and closes up the shop, goes for a short lunch, then returns to a mouse free environment.(except for a few carcasses lying about)
Opening the overhead doors vents the place.

[GMike A]

Originally Posted by Jon Vermilye

Depends on the solar charger. My GoPower controller is a 4 stage charger & does a desulphation or equalization stage every 28 days, or whenever the battery voltage falls below 12.1V. It has 3 battery profiles, so it can be shut off for those battery types that are not happy with a equalization cycle.

THANKS that is what I will look for and have made notes on that. Super!!!

[rabbit]

Has it been established that there was a chain of causation which involved incorrect or unsuitable charging parameters of the PD converter? Bad battery was probably CW shorthand for a situation which produced a bad battery. Comparable to the lost shoe and the lame horse. I wonder what CW charged for the diagnosis?

jack

[Francesca Knowles]

Originally Posted by Byron Kinnaman

Thanks I found it. Not sure I would trust Camping World for a correct diagnosis.

I hope somebody sends those batteries back to Johnson Controls/Optima for evaluation.

That still doesn't solve the location/design issue.

I didn't catch that the batteries deemed to have failed are Optimas, as in "Optima Jim"...sounds like the maker in question is in the conversation already! Thanks for pointing that out to me- hoping to hear from him/them on possible causes soon...

As for the questions about venting/location that have emerged in this very useful thread: does anyone besides me think that this subject might be worthy of a "New thread split"?

Since Parkliner isn't the only manufacturer putting batteries in the inside of trailers rather than outside, I think separation of that issue could be most useful.

Francesca

[Glenn Baglo]

Originally Posted by Francesca Knowles

Since Parkliner isn't the only manufacturer putting batteries in the inside of trailers rather than outside, I think separation of that issue could be most useful.

Francesca

Or not. Perhaps the issue really hasn't been about the battery, but that Parkliner does not isolate and vent the battery.
Perhaps, those who have other brand trailers could simply post in this thread, what their manufacturer does. We've already learned that batteries should be contained and vented.
Any event, mine is outside on the back bumper.

[Francesca Knowles]

Originally Posted by Glenn Baglo

Or not. Perhaps the issue really hasn't been about the battery, but that Parkliner does not isolate and vent the battery.

Lil' Snoozy doesn't either, Glenn.

And the fact that you (certainly an attentive reader) missed the post to that effect a few pages back may further the point that a freestanding thread on that subject could be very useful for all.

Francesca

[Glenn Baglo]

There you go. Pertinent information.
Thank you.
Although, I don't see how that suggests that the issue should be separated from the brand ( as you seem to desire ), or what other brands do.

[Francesca Knowles]

Originally Posted by Glenn Baglo

There you go. Pertinent information.
Thank you.
Although, I don't see how that suggests that the issue should be separated from the brand ( as you seem to desire ), or what other brands do.

I don't suggest that the issue of battery placement/separation be separated from the brand- in my opinion, the issue of how/whether to place batteries inside a trailer is not brand-specific. It seems to be an increasing practice, at least with AGM's, and that's the problem.

I think placing any batteries capable of outgassing in an unsealed/unvented interior a very risky practice and have said so in other threads more than once. A response I have received (also more than once) is that AGM batteries are somehow immune to the hazards associated with "ordinary" lead-acid batteries. Until now, novice that I am, I accepted that as a fact.

This incident informs us that the same catastrophic failure that puts folks at risk from any other battery can indeed happen with the fabled AGM.

In my opinion, that's important information, perhaps news to everyone on this subject, and worthy of specific focus beyond the single brand of trailer under scrutiny here.

Francesca

[gmw photos]

Originally Posted by Francesca Knowles

I didn't catch that the batteries deemed to have failed are Optimas, as in "Optima Jim"...sounds like the maker in question is in the conversation already! Thanks for pointing that out to me- hoping to hear from him/them on possible causes soon...

Francesca

It is probably safe to say the manufacturer of the batteries would not want to make statements about the cause of failure without having those batteries in their possession to do a failure analysis.

[Mimi Lee]

There has been so much to process and I am appreciative to everyone who has commented, made suggestions. This has been a big learning experience and I am glad that I'm not the only one benefiting from the dialog and shared inputs. Thank you to you all. And of course, it is so reassuring that we have OptimaJim in the conversation.

Thank you Scott for adding to the thread your experience and for the calculation regarding the draw the CO detector was producing, which Jim verified, and noted that issues with battery can come up even before the battery is fully discharged.

As far as the cause of the battery failure, it is more than fair to say, even though we were fully charged when we put in storage, we were clearly over the 100 day threshold. Needless to day a lesson learned I will never forget. But obviously we had a much larger issue than non-functional batteries in that there was an unexpected impact with the batteries venting toxic materials and gases and smoke in the internal compartment. We have littles, and this is beyond a hypothetical situation, it happened, it happened to us, so I will not be taking any chances that we never encounter some malfunction down the line of a component, our batteries will be sealed and vented to the outside.

Of course, no one wanted or intended this to happen, and I don't hold any ill will towards anyone, other than perhaps myself for not having been more informed about the proper care and monitoring of the batteries. I am grateful that the outcome was only inconvenience. And I am grateful that there was this community to come to, as so many people offered kind words and advise and suggestions. I was overwhelmed by all the responses and still processing all the information (and residual emotions from that morning) you all so generously shared.

Fingers crossed the battery boxes that will be delivered tomorrow will physically fit into the space!

[Mimi Lee]

Shall we revert back to 'Smoking Batteries' title for the thread? Can someone here do that for me.

[deryk]

Mimi good luck and please let us know and take photos... since I think a few of us are going to be looking into doing it. I'm not thrilled with the thought but an option is to move the 2 batteries out of the street side lazerette and put them on the floor below the rear window... will take up some valuable floor space but the boxes will definitely fit. Could box it off to conceal it.

[Mimi Lee]

Thanks. I will definitely give an update. We store offsite and have littles to look after, so time is a limited window but my hope is that it can get done this weekend.

[mrscottyg]

Mimi,

Is the 12V connection on your tow harness wired to allow trailer battery charging when you are towing? Mine is not, but I was curious if yours was, and if so, about how long you drove to go camping.

You said the event woke you up around 3:00 am. Do you recall about what time you plugged in at the campsite?

How hot was it outside that night?

And what else did you have running on power? Fantastic fan? If so, Which direction?, Air Conditioner? Anything else?

[Mimi Lee]

Originally Posted by mrscottyg

Mimi,

Is the 12V connection on your tow harness wired to allow trailer battery charging when you are towing? Mine is not, but I was curious if yours was, and if so, about how long you drove to go camping.

You said the event woke you up around 3:00 am. Do you recall about what time you plugged in at the campsite?

How hot was it outside that night?

We have a factory installed tow package on our vehicle, but it's not setup to allow us to charge while towing. We plugged in about 7:30pm. It was not hot at all, maybe 70, we slept with windows open and the fan on, no ac.

[Mary F]

Originally Posted by Mimi Lee

Shall we revert back to 'Smoking Batteries' title for the thread? Can someone here do that for me.

I've changed the thread title, as you can see. I left the "was" title, to help some of our more casual members find it again.

FWIW, "our" in the old title was intentional, as the thread addresses a problem in the OP's trailer which may or may not be common to other (early) Parkliners.

[mrscottyg]

Thanks. I am going to run a test this weekend on our trailer. I've been reading about AGM batteries, and it seems you have to reduce the charge voltage when the ambient temperature is elevated. Your charger was working full tilt to recover a pair of very discharged batteries, probably at peak power. When the cooling fan turned on to keep the converter cool, that heat was being dumped into the same compartment as the batteries. If this heat cannot get out of the compartment, then it will get very hot. Since you lost both batteries at once, I wonder if this was due to Thermal Runaway. As the battery accepts current, its internal temperature rises. The rise in temperature reduces the battery impedance, causing it to accept more current. The higher current further heats the battery, and so on, causing the battery temperature to run away. An upper limit will eventually be reached when the electrolyte starts to boil.

When I hook up our trailer this weekend, I will monitor the temperature in this compartment so we can find out if we have an overheating condition.

[Mimi Lee]

Scott, you are on to something. I can confirm the cooling fan kicked on that evening. (Hindsight is 20/20). We did open the converter manual at that point to see if that was normal but there was nothing that called out to us the fan running was an emergency and not SOP due to it being warmer weather.

If only I knew then what I know now... As I have said many times

It will be very interesting to see what happens when you monitor for temperature this weekend.

Have fun, be safe (of course)

[Mimi Lee]

Originally Posted by Mary F

I've changed the thread title, as you can see. I left the "was" title, to help some of our more casual members find it again.

FWIW, "our" in the old title was intentional, as the thread addresses a problem in the OP's trailer which may or may not be common to other (early) Parkliners.

Thanks Mary. Sorry for troubles.

[Byron Kinnaman]

Originally Posted by mrscottyg

Thanks. I am going to run a test this weekend on our trailer. I've been reading about AGM batteries, and it seems you have to reduce the charge voltage when the ambient temperature is elevated. Your charger was working full tilt to recover a pair of very discharged batteries, probably at peak power. When the cooling fan turned on to keep the converter cool, that heat was being dumped into the same compartment as the batteries. If this heat cannot get out of the compartment, then it will get very hot. Since you lost both batteries at once, I wonder if this was due to Thermal Runaway. As the battery accepts current, its internal temperature rises. The rise in temperature reduces the battery impedance, causing it to accept more current. The higher current further heats the battery, and so on, causing the battery temperature to run away. An upper limit will eventually be reached when the electrolyte starts to boil.

When I hook up our trailer this weekend, I will monitor the temperature in this compartment so we can find out if we have an overheating condition.

Now that sounds feasible. Keep us informed on the temperature rise. The temperature rise would probably be higher when the batteries are completely discharged.