Sway disaster...

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by redbarron55

This why I am installing the entire package in my Jetta Sportwagen TDI and the reason this car is rated to tow 1800 KG in the rest of the world.

.

Yes the Europeans do have a leading edge on NA when it comes to safety features including a couple of others that contribute greatly to why a vehicle sold here will have very different manufactures stated towing capacity to a similar car in Europe.

One is the fact they have country wide tow speed restrictions - yup even on the infamous Autobahn the towing speed is restricted to 50 mph. Having lower speed limits helps a lot in allowing smaller vehicles to pull more weight and keep all wheels of the tug and trailer firmly on the road way.

The European hitch is very different in design (many would argue a far better design) and has different attachment points to the NA style hitch. The big safety feature the European hitch has is that it has stamped right on it whatever the vehicle manufactures stated towing capacity is for the car it is attached to and was designed to be used on - no more no less.

In Europe they have none of this Class i, II, III iV etc system we have where anyone with a car can going out and put any size capacity hitch on it, regardless of the car manufactures stated towing capacity.

In Europe the police can and will look at the act the actual towing capacity as stated by the manufacture of vehicle you are pulling a trailer with and check the stated weights on the hitch and the weight decals on the trailer to make sure your not towing anything over the car manufactures stated capacity.

Its unfortunate we can not use the European hitch type here, as due to a NA safety requirement the rear of the cars sold here are different from their European counter parts. To install a European style hitch on a NA purchased car one would have to hack out of the back end some of those NA required safety features.

[David Tilston]

Originally Posted by Carol H

- no more no less.

Wow! No less? Must need ballast to get to the correct weight.

[redbarron55]

The difference in the rear of the European and US Jetta (Golf everywhere else) Sportwagen is the bar (steel) that goes across the rear with a rubber bumper between it and the bumper cover is replaced with steel bar with the hitch on it and a rubber bumper between the bar and the bumper cover

Here is the stock bar:



Here is what the hitch looks like:

The original pad is trimmed a little to go back in the original position. The hitch has bars that go forward into the "frame rails beside the trunk and tie into the unibody in this manner.

Finished it looks like this:



If you wonder if VW is serious about trailers then take a look at this video:

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by honda03842

I thought all SUbarus had front wheel drive..is that not true?

Nope. Like Glenn my first Subaru was a GL in the mid 80's and it was 4 wheel drive on demand.

The Outback, Forester, Baja, Tribeca have always had Subaru's Symmetrical all wheel drive system as does the newer Crossteck. They did offer the Impreza at one time in both all wheel or front wheel drive but I am not sure you can get a front wheel drive anymore.

The BRZ if I am not mistaken is the only Subaru that is not full time all wheel drive and its a rear wheel drive.

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by redbarron55

The difference in the rear of the European and US Jetta (Golf everywhere else) Sportwagen is the bar (steel) that goes across the rear with a rubber bumper between it and the bumper cover is replaced with steel bar with the hitch on it and a rubber bumper between the bar and the bumper cover
.

Actually since they have started building the Jetta's/Golfs in Mexico there is more than that different in the rear ends of the cars. There was actually a video interview posted here a couple of years ago in which a VW rep acknowledge it. North American's like a softer ride.

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by David Tilston

Wow! No less? Must need ballast to get to the correct weight.

[RogerDat]

These systems are required in Europe and are now coming into the US and should be required here as well!

I'm all for folks having safer towing setups but not a huge fan of lots of "required" safety equipment. Can't fix poor decision making of driver with technology. Technology is a tool, letting people examine the situation and select the tool that works is probably going to have better outcomes than having required technology.

I'm betting that no matter how good the technology is there are those that will be able to overcome it with a massive dose of being stupid. Even the simple safety chain can be defeated by those that don't hook them up. If on the other hand folks really like something the manufacturers will start including it. Think air bags and cruise control.

Simple solutions can easily get you to 80% of max safety the other 20% depends on the person. Trying to get that 20% with technology just makes for expensive vehicles and repairs. Properly loaded and towed sway should NOT be an issue. Requiring one to purchase enhanced safety built in is sort of like making us all pay to have breathalyzer ignition lock outs in our cars.

Bummer about the Willys Jeep getting smacked like that. The driver on the other hand earned getting scared half to death. Just glad they did not cause an accident for the other drivers on the road.

[Rob Outlaw]

Originally Posted by honda03842

I thought all SUbarus had front wheel drive..is that not true?

All Subarus, all of them, for well over a decade are AWD. The most advanced of these systems distribute drive transparently to any and all wheels where ever its needed, side to side and diagonally.

[Glenn Baglo]

I think that my point was that airbags do not redistribute weight and that a WDH does.
I don't think Subaru's drive system is relevant to that discussion.

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by Glenn Baglo

I think that my point was that airbags do not redistribute weight and that a WDH does.
I don't think Subaru's drive system is relevant to that discussion.

Not sure it isn't. They also state that WDH systems are not recommended for use on there Outbacks in the manual - believe the Foresters reads the same - not sure about other models. When I enquired of Subaru's head office as to why that was, I was told there was concern that the redistribution of weight may interfere with the handling of the vehicle due to the All Wheel Drive system they use.

[Glenn Baglo]

At least you got an answer from Subaru. I've been trying to get Toyota to give me an answer to no avail.

[Paul O.]

Originally Posted by Glenn Baglo

At least you got an answer from Subaru. I've been trying to get Toyota to give me an answer to no avail.

I wish I knew the reasons Toyota has for discouraging 5th wheel towing with the Tacoma, but I have not tried to pry it out of them. I just do it, like some of the other users here.

[redbarron55]

My point on the airbags is not that they distribute weight, but rather the tests show that the use to level the car gave much the same improvement in towing stability as the WDH.
Testing showed that the airbag equipped car was approximately 1/2 way in stability between the unmodified car and the WDH.
It also will correct the aiming of the headlights.
As to the suspension differences in the Mexican and ROW VWs the spring might be different, but there are towing springs available for the VW wagon as well.
Others experience may vary, but my Sportwagen tows quite well and is very stable when the trailer is correctly setup.
Mt own thought is that a well behaved car with trailer is better than a car with poor handling when towing the same trailer.
Many CUVs and trucks handle miserably compared the the JSW and continue to be pretty miserable towing as well.
Connie (SHE WHO MUST BE OBEYED) and I looked to freshen up the vehicles we drive and tried almost all of them and found them lacking in power and handling compared with our 2009 JSW with 234,000 miles. We ended up buying another 2013 JSW with 30,000 miles. I have ordered the towbar and electrical wiring kit from Germany for it.
One limitation as mentioned above is on slick roads stopped on a hill the car has enough power to spin the front wheels, but the stability system handles that by stopping the spinning wheel making it a non event. This is not so much a traction problem as putting too much power down for the conditions. When this happened I let the car idle and it accelerated from a stand still through 3rd gear with no problem.
Not s much to argue with Carol H. but I think that VW US has a different agenda on towing that is not shared with VW ROW. One issue with the factory towbar setup is the 5 MPH bumpers which go away with that setup. ranted there is very little difference, but it has not been tested. Also the towbar does not have the factory provisions for two chains since the Euro setup is different using a breakaway system instead. Also there are no provisions for electric brake controllers and this has to be added (like many cars). However the trailer module has programming for the North American market. This module tells the caar there is a trailer attached and modifies the programming of the ESP, transmission, cooling, and engine to account for it.
I am posting the setup of my new car on the TDI forum along with purchasing information if anyone is interested.

[Cory Hilby]

Originally Posted by Carol H

....
Often the first instinct of those new to towing is to hit the tugs brakes or hit the gas to try and pull the trailer out of the sway situation.... neither of which is a good idea.

Wait, Carol, earlier in this we were told that hitting the gas to pull a trailer out of a sway was a good idea. I don't have trailer brakes. (My axle won't take them. My trailer packed is 1,700 lbs.) But you say it's NOT a good idea.
Should I hit the gas to pull my trailer out of a sway or not? Sometimes I get swaying not from the setup's fault, but just from my stupid driving.

[Glenn Baglo]

With some enthusiastic driving on a gravel road, I found my tent trailer coming up alongside of my Subaru. I hit the gas and managed to pass it. And then, I gently slowed down.

[Darwin Maring]

Darn if you do and darn if you don't. That is the best answer.

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by Cory Hilby

Wait, Carol, earlier in this we were told that hitting the gas to pull a trailer out of a sway was a good idea. I don't have trailer brakes. (My axle won't take them. My trailer packed is 1,700 lbs.) But you say it's NOT a good idea.
Should I hit the gas to pull my trailer out of a sway or not? Sometimes I get swaying not from the setup's fault, but just from my stupid driving.

Well thats the problem with no brakes on a trailer - best way to stop sway is to apply brakes to trailer only.

There really is not a real good way to stop the sway without possible creating more issues - hitting the gas to increase speed MAY pull the trailer out of a sway situation but speed is also more often than not a cause of sway in the first place so it may help to go fast or it may not. If your going down hill when you hit the gas you may be sorry you did. Putting brakes on hard on the tug is also a pretty good way to create a way bigger problem - tapping them lightly is something some folks do and seem to think it works for them .... its kind of one of those things that can either go ok or not so ok....

[Byron Kinnaman]

Originally Posted by Carol H

Well thats the problem with no brakes on a trailer - best way to stop sway is to apply brakes to trailer only.

There really is not a real good way to stop the sway without possible creating more issues - hitting the gas to increase speed MAY pull the trailer out of a sway situation but speed is also more often than not a cause of sway in the first place so it may help to go fast or it may not. If your going down hill when you hit the gas you may be sorry you did. Putting brakes on hard on the tug is also a pretty good way to create a way bigger problem - tapping them lightly is something some folks do and seem to think it works for them .... its kind of one of those things that can either go ok or not so ok....

Yes and NO.... If you get into a sway position without trailer brakes you're options are very limited. The dynamics of towing require that there be tension between the tug and the trailer. In the case I observed at beginning of this thread the rig was going down a small hill. Options.
1. No braking... Results in the ditch possibly upside down. No possibility of regaining control.
2. Any Braking... Results in the ditch possibly upside down. No possibility of regaining control.
3. Accelerating... A chance of regaining control.

Without accelerating when there is no brakes you're not going to regain control.

Even with trailer brakes braking the tug could also result is the ditch. Applying the trailer brakes alone will create the necessary tension to put the trailer back behind the tug.

[Ice-breaker]

Originally Posted by Byron Kinnaman

WDH hitches are not NOT recommend for light fiberglass trailers...

I guess the fine folks at Escape Trailer Industries need to be informed of this, as they may want to change their practice of selling WDH hitches to their lightweight fiberglass trailer customers. It has been two years since they sold me my WDH with my new Escape. Maybe they will take it back.

[Byron Kinnaman]

I'll relate another story that happened to me that makes me a firm believer of trailer brakes. In Los Vegas, on I-215 north bound, there's a slight hill with curve as it goes over the top. Blind, you can't see very far in front of you at that point. At that point all traffic in front of me had stopped for some reason. No choice but brake as hard as I could. I glanced in the side mirror towards the outside of the curve, there's my trailer trying pass me. Still no choice but the keep braking hard. I figured that my trailer would be gone. When stopped I looked in the center mirror and there was the trailer right where I wanted. If feel certain that without the brakes and good controller I would have lost the trailer.