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Old 07-28-2015, 08:35 AM   #61
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WDH on a tiny trailer?!
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Old 07-28-2015, 08:53 AM   #62
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Well, as everyone hereabouts knows, the other two people I always suggest to check with before towing over manufactures limits are your insurance agent and your attorney, as you may be opening a huge liability door.
My mistake on citing the data from the wrong model of Volvo. That's what I get for trusting the accuracy of previously posted info. Why in the world would anyone post the wrong model's manual in this thread, anyway? Seems dippy.

Insurance agent and (particularly) attorney are the last two people I'd talk to (and me with a law degree, go figure). Lawsuits, let alone prosecutions, for towing a recreational trailer in excess of the tow vehicle's tow rating are extremely rare, bordering on nonexistent. Tow ratings are the manufacturer's 'cover my butt from liability' numbers based upon their standard product; modifying that product aftermarket can make many vehicles (not all) capable of towing more weight. But one should always seek mods at a shop with many years of experience (Can-Am RV is such a shop). Anyone who thinks that book numbers trump experience has forgotten the lessons of his or her own past.
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Old 07-28-2015, 09:28 AM   #63
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Are you a practicing Attorney and is the preceding "Legal Comment and/or Advice"


Am I to guess that you combed through Nexus to come up with your comment about lawsuits pertaining to towing overweight "bordering on nonexistent"? If so, you are in disagreement with a practicing atty who posted otherwise about a year ago and effectively quashed this discussion until recently.


Looks like it's time to raise the population of the Gang of Four to the Gang of Five.



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Old 07-28-2015, 09:45 AM   #64
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When I was looking at Scamps as my first trailer, I took them at their word on their site (Back then I think it was 1000-1200 instead of the now 1200-1500). They clearly state: "Hitch weight 100 pounds" and how was I to know the difference between a loaded and non-loaded trailer as a newbie as they did NOT spell it out??? I didnt so I called JIM COFFLAND my salesman. He told me they had "just weighed a trailer identical" to mine and it weighed (I cant remember the exact figure he gave me) but apx 1500lbs! When I finally weighed it, 1700 lbs with a 225lb TONGUE weight. This would be full propane- no water. My point was, that could have EASILY taken me over my tongue weight if I had been purchasing thinking I was ok.

There's only ONE way to know what you have-- WEIGH IT. But you cant do that when you're shopping for a trailer that hasnt even been built. Now, we have these weights posted on this site and that info can be invaluable to FG-owners wannabes.

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A full 20#propane tank weighs 38#... empty is 18#.
I think Scamps weights are good estimates, the tongue weight would be accurate as well without the front bath. Yours is of course a front bath and you weighed it empty without any water behind the axle, right?

You do mean to ask "TOW RATING" of that Volvo don't you?
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Old 07-28-2015, 09:52 AM   #65
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WDH on a tiny trailer?!
A good point Floyd, but not sure what the funny is all about.

Back in the 60's my dad was had an RV dealership. He towed everything from a 400lb Apache Scout to a 20' dual axle Holiday Rambler. At the time he had a full size Ford Galaxie V8. With a family of 4 in the car and traveling all over the continent he wanted the safest and best towing experience. Then one day he called up the Equalizer Rep and talked about the advantages of a WDH. Ten minutes after the discussion he had one on order.

After a short 10 min drive with the new equalizer installed he came home and said. I can't believe how good the trailers tows now. Who would have believed the difference. The trailer was a 13' Fan sticky that probably weighted 1,600lbs.

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Insurance agent and (particularly) attorney are the last two people I'd talk to (and me with a law degree, go figure).
Mike....wow....the time, effort, study, etc to get that degree...... I have to take my hat off to you.
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Old 07-28-2015, 10:38 AM   #66
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My mistake on citing the data from the wrong model of Volvo. That's what I get for trusting the accuracy of previously posted info. Why in the world would anyone post the wrong model's manual in this thread, anyway? Seems dippy.
No problem but I suspect it may have had to do with the fact someone decided to post a photo taken on a different continent of a different Volvo model pulling a trailer we can't buy here in NA either Not to mention the trailer is not even close in size to the size of trailer the OP is interested in.

Not overly helpful to the OP & always a great way to high jack the thread and take it a little side ways.
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Old 07-28-2015, 10:40 AM   #67
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Which all goes to prove a few things.


1. Towing with a 1960's full size Ford Galaxy without a WDH may be a bad idea. But, compared to towing with most modern vehicles, it's still a bad idea.


2. What we learned in kindergarten may not be valid 60 years later.


3. Having a law degree does not make one a lawyer, not to compare, but in a recent case in LA it sure didn't...... read the news.



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Old 07-28-2015, 11:24 AM   #68
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Bob, I don't recall the 'practicing atty' post you mention or who this poster was; how about adding a link to that post?

I stand by my statement about the rarity of lawsuits and prosecutions for towing 'too much trailer'. You might have heard of 1 or 2, or maybe 3? With a US population of 318,000,000 that's rare. But if you can produce a list of 100 such cases (still only a ratio of 1:3,180,000) I'll be impressed. Best for you to do the research and show us the list of lawsuits won or successful prosecutions, because if I don't come up with enough cases you will just say I didn't research well enough.

I probably wouldn't have chimed in, but I just get tired of seeing folks get bullied.

By the way, it's Lexis-Nexis, not 'nexus'.
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Old 07-28-2015, 11:31 AM   #69
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Which all goes to prove a few things.


1. Towing with a 1960's full size Ford Galaxy without a WDH may be a bad idea. But, compared to towing with most modern vehicles, it's still a bad idea.


2. What we learned in kindergarten may not be valid 60 years later.


3. Having a law degree does not make one a lawyer, not to compare, but in a recent case in LA it sure didn't...... read the news.

I'm betting there was no such thing as Kindergarten when you were 5!

Being a Lawyer is like being a Doctor, you don't get internal medicine advice from a psychologist, and you don't take a real estate lawyer to criminal court!

Are you saying that a WDH is needed to tow a T@B?
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Old 07-28-2015, 12:05 PM   #70
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You need to look at YOUR instruction manual for YOUR Volvo.
On this, and other sites, people interpret what they read and then post.
So, "is not recommended" becomes "must not do".
People interpreted Toyota's "do not recommend" to mean "do not use" and then posted that as gospel. You need to go to your manual and then get the service manager to explain it.
Yup READ the owners manual. It will have something in it if Volvo also has a thing about people using WDH on their vehicles.

Subaru also has a tongue weight limit of only 200lbs on vehicles they put a tow spec of between 2700lbs and 3000lbs depending on the model. Making it tough to get a well balanced tow if towing anything with a total weight of over 2000lbs.

So why would Subaru (and in this case Volvo) put such a high total weight spec on it if you can't actually properly balance a trailer with it to tow in NA? Suspect it is to allow folks to tow boats etc a short distance to the launch ramp & not intended for pulling fully loaded TT around NA. Also the vehicles are sold in other parts of the world where tow speed limits are set at max 55 mph across the country and as such handling/sway issues are greatly reduced due to that speed limitation. In Europe the hitch set ups are also designed very differently than what is commonly found in NA. Both factors permit those living across the big pond from NA to get away with towing with less than 10% of the total weight on the tongue with limited ill effects of doing so.

The owners manual states on Subaru's that a WDH "is not recommended". I chatted directly to Subaru America and well as Canada and at the end of the day the best I could get out of them was the reason for the recommendation was they had concerns that due to their unique full time all wheel drive system they had concerns that under certain driving and weather conditions &/or poorly set up WDH that it could have a negative impact on the cars handling. Having said that I am well aware that there are a number of Subaru owners here who have had a WDH installed on their set ups and not aware of any ill effects so far. So it may simple be a fear on the part of Subaru that some people will not take the time to learn how to correct adjust the WDH or maybe not. Up to the owners to decide which it is and if they can live with the consequences of discovering they were might be wrong.
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Old 07-28-2015, 12:39 PM   #71
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Kindergarten

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Originally Posted by floyd View Post
I'm betting there was no such thing as Kindergarten when you were 5!

Being a Lawyer is like being a Doctor, you don't get internal medicine advice from a psychologist, and you don't take a real estate lawyer to criminal court!

Are you saying that a WDH is needed to tow a T@B?
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Repete;
"A good start?"
Nope, they didn't have kindergarten in my town until I was 8 and already in highschool....LOL

Finishing law school does not make you a lawyer, there is a little thing like the Bar Exam which in CA has a very high first time failure rate, not to mention those that just give up after the third try and go into something else.

And NO, I'm not even suggesting that a WDH is needed to tow an egg, just that when towing anything with a mid 1960's Ford Galaxy that you needed all the help you could get. LOL



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Old 07-28-2015, 12:52 PM   #72
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Numbers???

[QUOTE=Mike Magee;537996]With a US population of 318,000,000 that's rare. But if you can produce a list of 100 such cases (still only a ratio of 1:3,180,000) I'll be impressed.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think that the ratio would only apply to the number of RV's being towed, not to the actual count of every many woman and child in the United States.

In that case 100 examples in, say a 3 year period, would be considered a huge number.

But, as was mentioned before by a practicing atty, who did do some research, most of those cases never make it to court and won't show up anyway.

Every one can take their own chances, but it is important that everyone know the several sides to an argument and right now the Gang of Five, that is, those that advocate ignoring manufacturers towing ratings, seems to reside in the minority.



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Old 07-28-2015, 01:14 PM   #73
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Carol, I don't know about in Europe....but the 2016 XC90 was a HUGE launch. The CHinese owners basically have given Volvo a blank check to do whatever they want...and the first manifestation is the new 90. Google Volvo cars and look at it. It's gorgeous. It is the opposite of what happened to Saab....where they basically starved them out.
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Old 07-28-2015, 01:59 PM   #74
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Every one can take their own chances, but it is important that everyone know the several sides to an argument and right now the Gang of Five, that is, those that advocate ignoring manufacturers towing ratings, seems to reside in the minority.
That's called a "bandwagon" appeal. "Everyone else is on this side, so you should be on this side, too." I never claimed to be a lawyer, just a law school graduate, but law school does teach one to recognize faulty arguments like the bandwagon appeal. And since we have no stats on the alleged cases that don't go to trial, their frequency is entirely conjectural and therefore immaterial.

Carol, you're right, every mfr is different on how they view WDH use. My new-to-me Lexus' manual surprised me. It says I can have 650 lbs on the hitch if no WDH is used, or 975 lbs (!!) if WDH is used. Total max trailer weight 6500. And they recommend a WDH for any trailer over 2000 lbs. Looking at the factory hitch receiver, I would never dare to put more than about 700 lbs on it in any case; it just doesn't look sturdy enough to me, and my Highlander's aftermarket receiver looks far tougher.
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Old 07-28-2015, 02:07 PM   #75
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OK. My feeling is, if the Service Manager says that...then I can go a LITTLE over TW nd be OK. I'm not talking about hitching The V up to an Airstream (although I wouldn't complain.)
The problem now is that I just read that you can't USE a WDH with a Volvo hitch...because it is a CLass II setup and a WDH needs III. (PLease don;t laugh at me if I got those CLass #s wrong!)
GOOD Lord...why is thos so freaking complicated!!! It's nuts!
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Old 07-28-2015, 02:08 PM   #76
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Carol, I don't know about in Europe....but the 2016 XC90 was a HUGE launch. The CHinese owners basically have given Volvo a blank check to do whatever they want...and the first manifestation is the new 90. Google Volvo cars and look at it. It's gorgeous. It is the opposite of what happened to Saab....where they basically starved them out.
I saw that and added it to my possible next tow vehicle list

The Europeans often get all the cool toys a year or two ahead of us with way more bells and whistles than we get, which is why I asked.
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Old 07-28-2015, 02:09 PM   #77
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I'm to the point of being so saturated with info that I can't quite remember the answers to all of my questions. But I DO think I remember reading that the Volvos should NOT have a WDH! We did have a discussion here about this, but I haven't figured out how to go back and find it. At any rate, I'm kind of surprised the Service Manager would recommend this, but not surprised he wouldn't "sign that"!

LP
There you go. I remember reading that too. What does your new BF weigh? Bath?
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Old 07-28-2015, 02:12 PM   #78
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My new-to-me Lexus' manual surprised me. It says I can have 650 lbs on the hitch if no WDH is used, or 975 lbs (!!) if WDH is used. Total max trailer weight 6500. And they recommend a WDH for any trailer over 2000 lbs. Looking at the factory hitch receiver, I would never dare to put more than about 700 lbs on it in any case; it just doesn't look sturdy enough to me, and my Highlander's aftermarket receiver looks far tougher.
Do you realize how absurd this sounds to someone who has a half ton truck they use for towing, that a Lexus has twice the tongue weight capability ± a few lbs as a truck built on a frame. I don't know if we have helped the OP or not on their quest for a TV and camper combo, but when I see things like this it leaves one scratching their head. Mike I am not directing this at you, knowing you're just the messenger quoting your owners manual, but still. Wow.
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Old 07-28-2015, 02:13 PM   #79
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GOOD Lord...why is thos so freaking complicated!!! It's nuts!
etrailer.com is an excellent source of information.
You should be able to plug in make, model and year and etrailer will come up with the hitch receivers ( if any ) that are suitable for WDH.
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Old 07-28-2015, 02:18 PM   #80
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OK.
The problem now is that I just read that you can't USE a WDH with a Volvo hitch...because it is a CLass II setup and a WDH needs III. (PLease don;t laugh at me if I got those CLass #s wrong!)
GOOD Lord...why is thos so freaking complicated!!! It's nuts!
I was actually thinking about the Class of hitch Volvo would be putting on the car this morning.... figured they would put a Class II on, as it is very safe/capable for use on a trailer with your vehicle providing it is within Volvo's towing specs.

Your correct no way to add a WDH to a class II. Even if it was a Class III hitch you would need to be specific as to the need for it to have the capability of adding WDH as not all of them come that way. Either way I suspect any of the hitches that Volvo makes for their cars has no WDH capability.

As Floyd rightly pointed out a WDH is not needed to get a stable and safe tow for any of the 16' and under fiberglass trailers out there. Simple put a WDH will simple shift weight on the vehicle and will not change the fact the trailers tongue weight is still over the cars manufactures specs.
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