Tips on drycamping for newbs

[steve dunham]

Originally Posted by Byron Kinnaman

I sorry but I resent that remark about backpackers. I spent over 30 years backpacking and the total amount of gray water I produced during that time was far less than many RVer produce in a week-end. it was always proper dispersed in a location away from surface water. Those us that really care manage to find ways to minimize out impact. No trace camping is correct phrase.

Years ago when we dry camped in northern Minnesota, we filtered our grey water through a pair of panty hose into a 5 gallon bucket and used it to put out our campfire. A Minnesota DNR officer said grey water did far less damage than a forest fire and that he had no objections to our use of grey water.

thanks
steve dunham

[LurkerDan]

Originally Posted by Robin G

Here in Colorado the Puffer Law pertains more to people being with the vehicle. You can not let a car idle unattended. AT ALL! People get tickets for it all the time here. You have to be within the vehicle. So allowing your window's time to defrost is ok, it's just letting your car warm up all alone is a huge no no.......... Guess they figure if your sitting in it, you won't let it idle as long as you would if you start it and let it run for long periods of time.

Good thing the cops never drive down my block! Please don't tell them to start.

I'm completely new to this RVing thing, but not camping, so finally a topic I can weigh in on!

As for the grey water issue, and camping in general, it is important to research local regulations. There could be complete fire bans, or maybe just fire restrictions that need you to have a fire pan or similar equipment. Here, sometimes only a propane stove is allowed, not even charcoal. Violate a fire ban around these parts and people get real upset. There probably are regs about grey water wherever you camp, but don't assume what they are (as many in this thread have). Anyone who's done a lot of river trips probably has been required to do the exact opposite of what many here are saying. On the rivers I have rafted, you filter out food particles, you use a groover for #2, but all grey water and even urine goes right into the water, NOT away from it. And while that is extreme, I have seen a variety of regulations.

[Francesca Knowles]

Originally Posted by LurkerDan

On the rivers I have rafted, you filter out food particles, you use a groover for #2, but all grey water and even urine goes right into the water, NOT away from it.

That's a joke, right?

Francesca

[Scott H]

No, that's not a joke. Dilution is the solution.

[LurkerDan]

Yep, no joke. For ex, that is the requirement for rafting in the Frank Church Wilderness, the largest wilderness area in the lower 48. You would do more damage by not putting your gray water and urine in the river. Dilution is, indeed, the solution.

[Francesca Knowles]

I put an inquiry in to the Colorado State Dept. of Water Quality regarding the above remarkable assertions. No reply as yet.
Meanwhile, behind-the-scenes forum participant Brian B-P has provided a link to the regulations for the Frank Church Wilderness: http://www.fs.fed.us/r4/sc/recreatio.../userguide.pdf
Here are some excerpts:

Note: "Human waste" means both kinds.
Human Waste:
page 17 Be responsible for human waste. When traveling overland, bury feces. When floating the rivers, use the available pit toilets or pack it out in sealed containers.
page 19 9. Human feces from campsites without pit toilets must be hauled out
page 22 All (rafting) parties are REQUIRED to have portable toilets or other means for packing out human waste. A dumping station is provided in Riggins and at Newland Ranch.
Greywater:
page 19: 6. No soaps or detergents allowed in the hot springs, rivers, or side streams. Wash and rinse well away from water sources and camp areas, using pans or buckets. Dispose of water at least 200 feet from rivers or streams.
END QUOTES
Since the rules don't specify a method for greywater disposal, common sense must be applied. Best nuisance/vector control is achieved by using existing fire pits or temporary shallow holes which are backfilled and tamped before leaving the site.

If/when I hear from Colorado re. other rivers in its jurisdiction, I'll post the information.

Francesca

[LurkerDan]

I may have gotten the gray water (soapy part) wrong for Frank Church, but I know that is what I have been told for some other rivers. But since you seem bent on proving me wrong... That user guide -- which was already brought to my attention in a PM -- is a general user guide for the entire wilderness; rafting has its own set of regulation. You seem to assume that "human waste" means more than feces, but don't provide a cite for that. In any case, read this, from here: Salmon-Challis National Forest - Recreational Activities

Urine goes in the water or wet sand. For the more modest folks, or for use at night, offer a pee bucket (sorry – no TP in the bucket), then dump the urine into the current.

That is very common for rafting on western rivers, no matter what your research and emails show (and, BTW, most of the rivers we're talking about are under federal jurisdiction, not state, and the Frank Church Wilderness is nowhere near Colorado). Other regulations I have seen -- Westwater, gates of Lodore, for ex -- say no soap in springs and side streams, implying that it's ok in the main river, so maybe that's where I was told that grey water goes in the river (but I didn't see more on that subject, so don't know for sure). Here's another site that discusses urinating in the water (for a river I have not been on): http://www.ohranger.com/klamath-natl...padding-sports

I know it may seem shocking to non-boaters, but most experienced (western) rafters are familiar with this. From my understanding, it's fairly common on western permitted rivers. Campsites are limited and see a lot of use, so having people pee all over or scatter dishwater all over would trash these sites rather quickly. The river ecosystem can better support/dilute this waste.

Regardless, my only point in bringing it up was to highlight that the local rules need to be checked, because local circumstances could be different than what you might expect. I didn't intend to get in an argument about where I'm supposed to pee. I understand that typically, one should broadcast gray water away from streams and rivers, and don't pee into the river; that is what most of us were taught. Believe me, it took quite a while to get comfortable peeing directly into the river on my first rafting trip!

[Francesca Knowles]

Originally Posted by LurkerDan

You seem to assume that "human waste" means more than feces, but don't provide a cite for that.

Hi, Dan

Will this do?
From http://adm.idaho.gov/adminrules/rules/idapa58/0116.pdf
(page 6: "definitions")
06. Blackwaste. Human body waste, such as excreta or urine.
07. Blackwater. A wastewater whose principal pollutant is blackwaste; a combination of blackwaste and water.

Francesca

[LurkerDan]

No, it won't. Briefly, I have no idea what that definition actually applies to in Idaho, and didn't need to try and find out because that is an Idaho state government link; we're talking about federal land (ie, simply put, that regulation does not apply to the river reach in question). Regardless, before you try to find a federal cite to prove me wrong (even though I provided a direct link from the Salmon-Challis National Forest website on the topic in question), I don't care. I know what I am supposed to do with urine when rafting on these rivers, and I trust that were you to raft these rivers, you would be led to the same answer by relevant literature, permitting, and ranger briefings before put-in.

I also know that it is beside the point I was trying to make for the OP, which is merely to research the regulations of the relevant jurisdiction s/he is camping in.

[Scott H]

Originally Posted by Francesca Knowles

I put an inquiry in to the Colorado State Dept. of Water Quality regarding the above remarkable assertions. No reply as yet.
Meanwhile, behind-the-scenes forum participant Brian B-P has provided a link to the regulations for the Frank Church Wilderness: http://www.fs.fed.us/r4/sc/recreatio.../userguide.pdf
Here are some excerpts:

Note: "Human waste" means both kinds.
Human Waste:
page 17 Be responsible for human waste. When traveling overland, bury feces. When floating the rivers, use the available pit toilets or pack it out in sealed containers.
page 19 9. Human feces from campsites without pit toilets must be hauled out
page 22 All (rafting) parties are REQUIRED to have portable toilets or other means for packing out human waste. A dumping station is provided in Riggins and at Newland Ranch.
Greywater:
page 19: 6. No soaps or detergents allowed in the hot springs, rivers, or side streams. Wash and rinse well away from water sources and camp areas, using pans or buckets. Dispose of water at least 200 feet from rivers or streams.
END QUOTES
Since the rules don't specify a method for greywater disposal, common sense must be applied. Best nuisance/vector control is achieved by using existing fire pits or temporary shallow holes which are backfilled and tamped before leaving the site.

If/when I hear from Colorado re. other rivers in its jurisdiction, I'll post the information.

Francesca

Francesca,
If you use this fire management method on most any federally controled river in the west; you'll get a big fat fine. Fires need to be fully contained in a fire pan at least 6" deep resting on a fire blanket, ashes packed out in a waterproof container.
What was Dan's point? Oh yeah; different places, different rules.

[Greg H]

So many rules.

[Andrew GPSMapNut]

My first thought was; you don't like to have so many rules when camping, move to Ontario. The second thought was; well, better check out the rules...
The fact is, there are so many that there is no bloody way I'm going to ever know them all despite the fact that I often camp on Crown land. Reading up on the rules... I'm sure, I sometimes break some of the rules and laws. So be it. I just use (my) common sense dominated by one basic rule - when I leave a place, it should be left the way I would like to find it.

[Barbara Gardin]

Which Crown Land do you camp on and do you get permission first>

[Andrew GPSMapNut]

Originally Posted by Barbara Gardin

Which Crown Land do you camp on and do you get permission first>

All over the place but, most often in Gogama and Kirkland Lake areas.
"As for the permit, let me quote from a regulation summary;
On most Crown land, camping is allowed free for Canadian residents for up to 21 days at one site. Campers can camp for an additional 21 days on a second site if the second site is located at least 100 metres from the first site. Please note, camping may be prohibited or restricted on some areas of Crown land; these locations are signed and regulated under the authority of the Public Lands Act."

I'm not sure if this applies to Ontario only or, is it a federal regulation.
In other words, unless Crown land is posted, you are OK to camp. Non residents require a permit.

[JenPB]

I have a hose that connects my trailer greywater (Sink) to one of these collapsible containers. Once 2/3 full, I either take it to designated dump spot, or carry it away from camp spot, dig hole and dump, or use it to put the fire dead out....
Collapsible Water Container

[floyd]

"Since the rules don't specify a method for greywater disposal, common sense must be applied."

Now I don't care who you are... that there's FUNNY!!
No worries, nobody will be allowed to use common sense much longer!

[Byron Kinnaman]

Originally Posted by floyd

"Since the rules don't specify a method for greywater disposal, common sense must be applied."

Now I don't care who you are... that there's FUNNY!!
No worries, nobody will be allowed to use common sense much longer!

What does "common sense" mean?
Your common sense or somebody else's common sense?
Point what is "common sense" to you may be different than what is "common sense" to somebody else.

[Donna D.]

Common sense tells me the topic of this title is "Tips on drycamping for newbs" and not about conservatives vs liberals... which I believe someone is trying to turn this topic into...

[floyd]

Perhaps "common" was was a bit too strong of a word.
I just thought the the irony was humorous. Sorry

[honda03842]

Hopefully common sense has no political connotation but suggest a consciousness about decision making , a thoughtful response, rather than a reactive response without consideration. Being conscious of actions and results leads to a collective common sense.


My father said, “Life is a series of choices (conscious actions), make the best you can.”

Norm