Tow Vehicles of the future

[Brian B-P]

I find the technology in this vehicle to be a strange mix. On one hand, representatives of the manufacturer have insisted that this is a modern product, and indeed it has features such as four-wheel disk brakes, 6-speed automatic transmission, electronic stability control, and even (almost unique in pickups) a multi-link coil-spring rear suspension; on the other hand, it has torsion bars for springs in the front, a design abandoned in light trucks by essentially everyone else.

[GeorgeR]

This is all very interesting but nobody, in my opinion, has really mentioned the basic problem. I think it has to do with the American business model. Think about this for a moment, everything you buy has to be bigger and better than the previous version. A bigger house, a bigger car or SUV, a bigger truck, a bigger RV. A more expensive dinning room set, bedroom set, etc. It's ingrained in our society. The manufacturers and sales guys push it, television pushes it, advertising pushes. Why, because profits and sales commissions are based on selling price. You add to that the "keeping up with the Jones" syndrome things will go up in size and cost. What does this have to do with MPG? Energy usage. Bigger house requires more energy to build and maintain. Bigger vehicle requires more energy to run, etc., etc. Of course the energy providers like this because it's more profit for them. One big viscous circle going the wrong direction. A small change in MPG requirements are nothing compared to the overall problem.

A total change in direction and attitude needs to be made before inroads can be made into energy usage. I also think I'm preaching to the choir. Many here are moving to smaller rather than larger, although I bet that there's been more sales of the larger fiberglass trailers than few years ago. Example, Scamp started production of their 16' first, then the 5er and finally the 13' if I remember right. I know the 16' was first. What that tells me that the bigger is selling better than the smaller. So we still have a bit of a problem, but not as much as the 40' Class A guys.

Bottom line -- Energy usage has to be reduced, MPG is one way, but only one way and by itself won't help much.

I agree, bigger is easier to sell if social limits have weak influence. We can ask ourselves; why “bigger is better” doesn’t sell in Europe as well as in US? An answer could relate to the high degree of individualism in US. Social limits don’t drive society with high degree of individualism. The right of an individual to drive the Hummer is having money; it is not that someone else is risking their life for it. A good example for individualism in US is a slower traffic in a fast highway lane. My father in-law once said; I am paying taxes and have right to be in this lane. Try it in Germany.

George.

[Bill MacDermod]

I also had a Kubota tractor while living in Va. I had looked at the Mahindra but the design and workmanship didn't seem to be there and the engine sounded like a thrashing machine. They also had a Belarus tractor that looked a lot like it and looked to be top heavy, there are diesels and there are diesels and I will hold my opinion on the Mahindra until you guys give us a reliability report on them.

[ronsmith100]

I also had a Kubota tractor while living in Va. I had looked at the Mahindra but the design and workmanship didn't seem to be there and the engine sounded like a thrashing machine. They also had a Belarus tractor that looked a lot like it and looked to be top heavy, there are diesels and there are diesels and I will hold my opinion on the Mahindra until you guys give us a reliability report on them.

[b]NO WAY! <span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%">YOU BUY ONE FIRST!!!!</span>



I wish I had enough faith in Americans to do the right thing by all this... stepping down to smaller cars and better gas millage. But I am pretty sure the only thing that will drive this new paradigm is the cost of fuel. In that sense I am just as much an environmentalist as the next guy if I have to pay$5/gal

[steven jones]

Yes, that's part of the problem, but I think it has less to do with business models than human nature. Simply put, it is harder to sell people on the idea that "less is more" than the idea that "bigger is better." I myself used to write a monthly magazine article about communications technology called "Bigger, Better, Faster . . ." That "bigger is better" seems almost self-evident to most people. Why else would "super-size" fries and drinks sell so well when we know those extra fat-laden, waistline-expanding, artery-hardening calories are bad for us? Convincing people that the better buy comes in a smaller package is hard sell even when we know better. Corporate America, Corporate Internationale for that matter, is really just going with the flow and catering to a common human failing. The car industry calls it "giving consumers what they're asking for."

you had me right up the that last part... it's not about giving consumers what they want... corporate advertising has become about convincing consumers of what they want... they create the demand for products we don't need by making it an alluring, powerful, desire... & convincing us that what we buy becomes an extension our personality, of how we see ourselves...
i don't need to keep up with the joneses... i am a jones...
anyway, back on topic...
--- steven

[Paula Bindrich]

i don't need to keep up with the joneses... i am a jones...

I think I'll change my name! Then as I downsize and build my strawbale house with solar and recycled stuff then maybe people will keep up (down?) with me, eh?!

I like it!

Paula

[peterh]

corporate advertising has become about convincing consumers of what they want... they create the demand for products we don't need by making it an alluring, powerful, desire... & convincing us that what we buy becomes an extension our personality, of how we see ourselves...

Well, yes and no. There are two immutable principals at work here, one is that car companies are in the business of outselling the competition. The other is people have this innate, perhaps even genetic instinct that more stuff is better than less stuff, that bigger is better. To outsell the competition car companies have to find ways to differentiate their products from the competition, make them sound like the more intelligent choice, and they do that by appealing to our ingrown attitude that "more is better."

The problem is it's very hard to one-up the competition when all of you are basically selling a box with very similar comfy seats, an engine, a nice sound and GPS navigation system, four wheels and exactly as many cup holders as you can stuff into that box and not look silly. So car manufacturers get creative, invent new, high-tech-thingies that they can add to their cars and then turn around and try to convince people that that thingies are actually important and make their cars bigger and better than their competitor's vehicles.

Case in point: recently one of the luxury car lines (I forget which one) ran a TV ad campaign talking about how intelligent their car's windshield wipers are. Intelligent windshield wipers are important, apparently, because when they detect moisture they send a message to the disk brakes that activates a heater to dry the disk brakes off.

Now this line of thinking probably works well and makes sense to someone with no engineering or physics background, but I know how wheels, disk brakes and water work. Braking a wheel when you're moving slowly is not at all difficult, even when the brakes are damp. Braking only gets to be a problem when the car is going faster, which means the wheels are spinning, creating centrifugal forces that quickly throw the moisture that hits the disk brakes off. The small amount of water that is left behind is wiped of by the brake pads, which constantly skim on the surface of the disk brakes. Net effect of an added device that "dries the brakes" on braking efficiency? Probably zero or very close to it. It might even be counter-productive because those heater and control circuits add weight to the car, weight that has to be decelerated, slowed down when someone applies the brakes.

Yet the man with the Harvard-educated accent is telling me that this car is safer than the competition's cars because it has intelligent windshield wipers and brake driers, one-upping the competition in the hope that P.T. Barnum was right when he said "there's a sucker born every minute," suckers that don't have the background to recognize when advertising is creating a smoke and mirrors illusion that intelligent windshield wipers are important and "bigger and better."

[peterh]

I don't want to be Jones. All those annoying people, chasing the Jonses. The poor Jones folk are probably going out of their head, ready to throw themselves of a cliff and pursued by all their little lemming followers.

[Patrick M.]

Anyway got me to looking around the net and I found this link http://www.pickuptruck.com/html/stor...ra/jperez.html

Apparently this company is a very big player in autos in Asia and Australia.. I never heard of them. But they seem to be on good footing if you read the Aussie press.

I think there would be a significant risk buying a truck from a new manufacturer entering the market. Service, parts and resale value would all be unknowns. Plus, I can't think of anything manufactured in India that is considered "among the best".

[Phil H.]

Honda sells the Accord and CRV in England with a 2.2 litre diesel. There are a few articles online that suggest this engine may make it to North America in 2009. I will be the first in line at my Honda dealer if I can get a CRV with this engine. It's the perfect combination of utility, economy and reliability in my opinion for towing our little fibreglass trailers.

[Patrick M.]

I looked up the diesel CRV on the UK Honda website http://www.honda.co.uk/car/ (warning - high speed required ). Here are the specs (manual tranny):

HP - 138
Torque - 251
Combined MPG - 43.5
Towing with brakes - 4,409#
Without brakes - 1,322#

Sounds good to me! But wait, there's more the colony doesn't yet have - Trailer Stability Control - see picture since their friendly website is all graphics and movies and, did I mention, annoying?

[peterh]

Here are the specs (manual tranny):

That's impressive!

[Brian B-P]

I think it's interesting that there is all this enthusiasm for vehicles which don't exist here because they're relatively small diesels, but no one in the forum seems to have mentioned buying any of the small diesel vehicles which have actually been offered. Anyone towing with a Jeep Liberty CRD out there?

[Patrick M.]

The Jeep Liberty is also interesting with its 3,500# towing capacity, but its current mileage is rated at 22 highway which probably won't cut it in the coming 35MPG era. As I recall, over in the Casita forum the Liberty is towing MPG champion in a poll at 20-21 when towing! http://www.casitaclub.com/forums/index.php...amp;#entry77935

[Cam A]

I am hunting a replacement for my Forester; Subaru has a diesel in the pipeline. If it hits the market too far behind the diesel CRV, I'll have a Honda instead. Let's hope the lawyers don't rob us of the towing capacity; I would like a 3500 pound class 2 rating.

[Phil H.]

I think it's interesting that there is all this enthusiasm for vehicles which don't exist here because they're relatively small diesels, but no one in the forum seems to have mentioned buying any of the small diesel vehicles which have actually been offered. Anyone towing with a Jeep Liberty CRD out there?

The Liberty diesel seemed like an interesting choice but it has already been dropped after only 1 or 2 years on the market. It was fairly pricey - I believe it was a 3000-5000 premium over the regular Liberty and the diesel was made in Italy. I used to work for Volvo trucks and know the finger pointing that existed if there was a problem between one make of engine and in a different manufacturers vehicle (Volvo trucks were available with engines from Volvo, Detroit Diesel, Caterpillar and Cummins). Given Chryslers already spotty reliability record, trying to get a problem sorted out on an Italian made diesel that was only sold for 1 or 2 years at a Chrysler dealership...well I think that's a recipe for too much frustration.

Chrysler has replaced that diesel with a 3.0 litre diesel in the Grand Cherokee. It's priced around $50,000 Canadian dollars. It's a Mercedes diesel and while I would trust that more than an Italian diesel, with the recent sale of Chrysler by Mercedes, I wouldn't want to be finding parts for that one or finding adequately trained Chysler mechanics (on the MB diesel) a few years after the corporate "divorce".

[GeorgeR]

The Jeep Liberty is also interesting with its 3,500# towing capacity, but its current mileage is rated at 22 highway which probably won't cut it in the coming 35MPG era. As I recall, over in the Casita forum the Liberty is towing MPG champion in a poll at 20-21 when towing! http://www.casitaclub.com/forums/index.php...amp;#entry77935

Good link Patrick. I used Casita Forum’s data to compare gas to diesel MPGs by averaging populations of diesels and gas powered vehicles. There are likely better ways to do the math but this one was the simplest.

Diesel – 19.3 MPG

Gas – 14.5

Diesel is 33% better on fuel than gas.

George.

[Patrick M.]

Some fun with numbers. Over 50,000 miles of towing:

Gasoline
50,000 / 14.5 = 3,448 gal x $3.00 = $10,345
Diesel
50,000 / 19.3 = 2,590 gal x $3.50 = $9,067

Benefit from using diesel: $1,378, ignoring all other, and numerous, factors.

Cost of a diesel vs. gasoline vehicle: More than $1,378 I suspect, but if you need it to tow: Priceless!

[Brian B-P]

The Liberty diesel seemed like an interesting choice but it has already been dropped after only 1 or 2 years on the market.

Yes, the Liberty CRD was an interim combination: when Chrysler did it, they knew it would not meet 2007 standards, so it was never intended to go longer. Nevertheless, if small diesel vehicles are so desirable, wouldn't this one be?

It was fairly pricey - I believe it was a 3000-5000 premium over the regular Liberty and the diesel was made in Italy. I used to work for Volvo trucks and know the finger pointing that existed if there was a problem between one make of engine and in a different manufacturers vehicle (Volvo trucks were available with engines from Volvo, Detroit Diesel, Caterpillar and Cummins). Given Chryslers already spotty reliability record, trying to get a problem sorted out on an Italian made diesel that was only sold for 1 or 2 years at a Chrysler dealership...well I think that's a recipe for too much frustration.

I agree that this is a valid concern. Do people really know how many parts of their cars were not manufactured by the same company as the overall vehicle? It has been done many times, and with great success.

As Phil is aware, the normal situation in the heavy truck industry is for the engine to come from another manufacturer.

As bad as Chrysler has been, and as indirect as the engine supplier connection may be for the Liberty, the Mahindra - with an unspecified engine from an unspecified other manufacturer, sold by an obscure U.S. importer - must be a far worse prospect than a common model of North American SUV powered by a VM Motori engine.

Chrysler has replaced that diesel with a 3.0 litre diesel in the Grand Cherokee. It's priced around $50,000 Canadian dollars. It's a Mercedes diesel and while I would trust that more than an Italian diesel, with the recent sale of Chrysler by Mercedes, I wouldn't want to be finding parts for that one or finding adequately trained Chysler mechanics (on the MB diesel) a few years after the corporate "divorce".

Yes, the Grand Cherokee 3.0 CRD is in some ways the logical successor to the Liberty CRD... but I think it's a size class larger than needed for the purpose. I wouldn't worry too much about support, as a variant of the same engine powers the current version of the Sprinter van, which has become quite popular in commercial and Class B motorhome applications across North America.

[GeorgeR]

Some fun with numbers. Over 50,000 miles of towing:

Gasoline
50,000 / 14.5 = 3,448 gal x $3.00 = $10,345
Diesel
50,000 / 19.3 = 2,590 gal x $3.50 = $9,067

Benefit from using diesel: $1,378, ignoring all other, and numerous, factors.

Cost of a diesel vs. gasoline vehicle: More than $1,378 I suspect, but if you need it to tow: Priceless!

I agree with your numbers, you need 2-3 years to payback for diesel cost penalty (assuming price of diesel fuel will go beck). If you towing, I agree, it is likely much less time for payback. In EU diesel fuel still cost less then gas so your calculation would look different over there. If you keep vehicle for long time it pays back in longevity. If you sell quickly you get better resale numbers.



But, at the time of purchase, instead of paying for diesel penalty you would invest in Oil Companies you would make gazillions of $????



There are clearly two, diesel and gas camps of folks. I just wish to have a choice for both, unfortunately in US the supplier favors gas vehicles.



George.