Tow Vehicles of the future - Page 3 - Fiberglass RV


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Old 12-21-2007, 08:38 AM   #29
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Anyway got me to looking around the net and I found this link http://www.pickuptruck.com/html/stor...ra/jperez.html

Apparently this company is a very big player in autos in Asia and Australia.. I never heard of them. But they seem to be on good footing if you read the Aussie press.
I think there would be a significant risk buying a truck from a new manufacturer entering the market. Service, parts and resale value would all be unknowns. Plus, I can't think of anything manufactured in India that is considered "among the best".
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Old 12-21-2007, 08:44 AM   #30
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Honda sells the Accord and CRV in England with a 2.2 litre diesel. There are a few articles online that suggest this engine may make it to North America in 2009. I will be the first in line at my Honda dealer if I can get a CRV with this engine. It's the perfect combination of utility, economy and reliability in my opinion for towing our little fibreglass trailers.
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Old 12-21-2007, 09:13 AM   #31
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I looked up the diesel CRV on the UK Honda website http://www.honda.co.uk/car/ (warning - high speed required ). Here are the specs (manual tranny):

HP - 138
Torque - 251
Combined MPG - 43.5
Towing with brakes - 4,409#
Without brakes - 1,322#

Sounds good to me! But wait, there's more the colony doesn't yet have - Trailer Stability Control - see picture since their friendly website is all graphics and movies and, did I mention, annoying?
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Old 12-21-2007, 11:39 AM   #32
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Here are the specs (manual tranny):
That's impressive!
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Old 12-21-2007, 11:45 AM   #33
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I think it's interesting that there is all this enthusiasm for vehicles which don't exist here because they're relatively small diesels, but no one in the forum seems to have mentioned buying any of the small diesel vehicles which have actually been offered. Anyone towing with a Jeep Liberty CRD out there?
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Old 12-21-2007, 12:02 PM   #34
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The Jeep Liberty is also interesting with its 3,500# towing capacity, but its current mileage is rated at 22 highway which probably won't cut it in the coming 35MPG era. As I recall, over in the Casita forum the Liberty is towing MPG champion in a poll at 20-21 when towing! http://www.casitaclub.com/forums/index.php...amp;#entry77935
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Old 12-21-2007, 12:11 PM   #35
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I am hunting a replacement for my Forester; Subaru has a diesel in the pipeline. If it hits the market too far behind the diesel CRV, I'll have a Honda instead. Let's hope the lawyers don't rob us of the towing capacity; I would like a 3500 pound class 2 rating.
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Old 12-21-2007, 01:52 PM   #36
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I think it's interesting that there is all this enthusiasm for vehicles which don't exist here because they're relatively small diesels, but no one in the forum seems to have mentioned buying any of the small diesel vehicles which have actually been offered. Anyone towing with a Jeep Liberty CRD out there?
The Liberty diesel seemed like an interesting choice but it has already been dropped after only 1 or 2 years on the market. It was fairly pricey - I believe it was a 3000-5000 premium over the regular Liberty and the diesel was made in Italy. I used to work for Volvo trucks and know the finger pointing that existed if there was a problem between one make of engine and in a different manufacturers vehicle (Volvo trucks were available with engines from Volvo, Detroit Diesel, Caterpillar and Cummins). Given Chryslers already spotty reliability record, trying to get a problem sorted out on an Italian made diesel that was only sold for 1 or 2 years at a Chrysler dealership...well I think that's a recipe for too much frustration.

Chrysler has replaced that diesel with a 3.0 litre diesel in the Grand Cherokee. It's priced around $50,000 Canadian dollars. It's a Mercedes diesel and while I would trust that more than an Italian diesel, with the recent sale of Chrysler by Mercedes, I wouldn't want to be finding parts for that one or finding adequately trained Chysler mechanics (on the MB diesel) a few years after the corporate "divorce".
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Old 12-21-2007, 02:48 PM   #37
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The Jeep Liberty is also interesting with its 3,500# towing capacity, but its current mileage is rated at 22 highway which probably won't cut it in the coming 35MPG era. As I recall, over in the Casita forum the Liberty is towing MPG champion in a poll at 20-21 when towing! http://www.casitaclub.com/forums/index.php...amp;#entry77935
Good link Patrick. I used Casita Forum’s data to compare gas to diesel MPGs by averaging populations of diesels and gas powered vehicles. There are likely better ways to do the math but this one was the simplest.

Diesel – 19.3 MPG

Gas – 14.5

Diesel is 33% better on fuel than gas.

George.




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Old 12-21-2007, 03:47 PM   #38
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Some fun with numbers. Over 50,000 miles of towing:

Gasoline
50,000 / 14.5 = 3,448 gal x $3.00 = $10,345
Diesel
50,000 / 19.3 = 2,590 gal x $3.50 = $9,067

Benefit from using diesel: $1,378, ignoring all other, and numerous, factors.

Cost of a diesel vs. gasoline vehicle: More than $1,378 I suspect, but if you need it to tow: Priceless!
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Old 12-21-2007, 03:54 PM   #39
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The Liberty diesel seemed like an interesting choice but it has already been dropped after only 1 or 2 years on the market.
Yes, the Liberty CRD was an interim combination: when Chrysler did it, they knew it would not meet 2007 standards, so it was never intended to go longer. Nevertheless, if small diesel vehicles are so desirable, wouldn't this one be?

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It was fairly pricey - I believe it was a 3000-5000 premium over the regular Liberty and the diesel was made in Italy. I used to work for Volvo trucks and know the finger pointing that existed if there was a problem between one make of engine and in a different manufacturers vehicle (Volvo trucks were available with engines from Volvo, Detroit Diesel, Caterpillar and Cummins). Given Chryslers already spotty reliability record, trying to get a problem sorted out on an Italian made diesel that was only sold for 1 or 2 years at a Chrysler dealership...well I think that's a recipe for too much frustration.
I agree that this is a valid concern. Do people really know how many parts of their cars were not manufactured by the same company as the overall vehicle? It has been done many times, and with great success.

As Phil is aware, the normal situation in the heavy truck industry is for the engine to come from another manufacturer.

As bad as Chrysler has been, and as indirect as the engine supplier connection may be for the Liberty, the Mahindra - with an unspecified engine from an unspecified other manufacturer, sold by an obscure U.S. importer - must be a far worse prospect than a common model of North American SUV powered by a VM Motori engine.

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Chrysler has replaced that diesel with a 3.0 litre diesel in the Grand Cherokee. It's priced around $50,000 Canadian dollars. It's a Mercedes diesel and while I would trust that more than an Italian diesel, with the recent sale of Chrysler by Mercedes, I wouldn't want to be finding parts for that one or finding adequately trained Chysler mechanics (on the MB diesel) a few years after the corporate "divorce".
Yes, the Grand Cherokee 3.0 CRD is in some ways the logical successor to the Liberty CRD... but I think it's a size class larger than needed for the purpose. I wouldn't worry too much about support, as a variant of the same engine powers the current version of the Sprinter van, which has become quite popular in commercial and Class B motorhome applications across North America.
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Old 12-21-2007, 04:27 PM   #40
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Some fun with numbers. Over 50,000 miles of towing:

Gasoline
50,000 / 14.5 = 3,448 gal x $3.00 = $10,345
Diesel
50,000 / 19.3 = 2,590 gal x $3.50 = $9,067

Benefit from using diesel: $1,378, ignoring all other, and numerous, factors.

Cost of a diesel vs. gasoline vehicle: More than $1,378 I suspect, but if you need it to tow: Priceless!
I agree with your numbers, you need 2-3 years to payback for diesel cost penalty (assuming price of diesel fuel will go beck). If you towing, I agree, it is likely much less time for payback. In EU diesel fuel still cost less then gas so your calculation would look different over there. If you keep vehicle for long time it pays back in longevity. If you sell quickly you get better resale numbers.



But, at the time of purchase, instead of paying for diesel penalty you would invest in Oil Companies you would make gazillions of $????



There are clearly two, diesel and gas camps of folks. I just wish to have a choice for both, unfortunately in US the supplier favors gas vehicles.



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Old 12-21-2007, 05:59 PM   #41
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While I acknowledge that there are supporters of each specific engine type (just as there are hybrid, electric, fuel cell, natural gas, etc. supporters), I would not assume that everyone falls in one camp. I think there are lots of valuable technical options, each of which should be applied where appropriate. No one technology is the magic solution for all... not even diesel!
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Old 12-21-2007, 06:03 PM   #42
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There needs to be some perspective here if you are going to do gas millage comparisons.

A diesel engine has more torque per liter of displacement. If it has more torque it can be attached to a heavier vehicle so that performance is equal to the gasoline engine (read non-towing mpg also equal)
OR
It can be reduced in displacement and placed in the same size vehicle so that performance is equal (read non-towing gas millage way better in diesel).
OR
You can have the same displacement with the same weight vehicle and have much higher performance overall with diesel.

No matter what performance curve you are trying to reach, you can reach it with a smaller diesel engine than gasoline engine (as long aw we are not talking about getting power from high RPM as in a turbo Impreza).
That is the biggest singe draw of diesel engines in the future.
An additional draw as already mentioned is fuel consumption in a diesel engine does not fall off as rapidly as gasoline when towing.
And one last thing: it appears that emissions with low sulfur fuel will be easier to control with ultra low sulfur diesel.At least from what I have been reading... and too the horsepower we are currently getting from high RPM gasoline engines is much less eco-friendly than is slower reving horsepower no matter what the fuel being used.

finally I don't buy that you can draw logical conclusions about what will sell here (US) in the future from what didn't sell in the past unless you can nail down the postulates so that they don't move over time (next four years). Times are changing. Diesel will become more popular in the US very soon (admittedly an opinion that is not nailed down with knowledge of future events).



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