USA tug Rip Off!

[Bill in Pittsburgh]

I saw, while traveling through Europe this fall, many vehicles common in this country towing trailers of comparable weights to our trailers. Vehicles that we are led to believe not capable of towing.
I understand there may be a whole litany of reasons why vehicles are not tow rated here in the USA, but I think most of them have to do with the auto companies not wanting to make a modest investment in crash tests but most of all wanting us to buy SUVs and pick-ups which provide them with higher profit margins.
I, for one, will not use a vehicle not properly tow rated for my trailer due to liability issues if a crash were to occur. But keep in mind that in many instances it has nothing to do with the vehicles capability. Research RVs in the twenties through the sixties towing trailers double the vehicles weight. Vehicles that had very inadequate brakes in comparison to today's vehicles.
I would be pleased to see a massive effort by members of this site and other RV sites to mount a petition campaign to encourage and possibly make the auto industry aware of a market for reasonably sized vehicles needed for towing.
JUST MY NOT SO HUMBLE OPINION.

[David Tilston]

Bill, You are singing my song.

[Bill in Pittsburgh]

Jokes aside
WE DON'T NEED A FORD f 150 OR JEEP GRAND CHEROKEE TO TOW A 2400 LB. TRAILER.

[honda03842]

Bill,

Definitely a worthy thought. Seeking truth is worthwhile but my reality is you can only seek it in yourself.

I've written letters to Honda about the ability of our Honda CRV's North American tow rating. In Europe the CRV is allowed to tow rather significant trailers.

Though someone from Honda always called me in a matter of days about my letters and politely listened, nothing changed. They knew we towed with our CRV and were interested in our cross Labrador trip.

I was never criticized or warned by Honda for our use of the Honda CRV to tow our Scamp 16 which it did for a good part of 250,000 miles without repair or failure.

Life is about making good choices based upon conscious thought. I choose the CRV as a tow vehicle and it did the job as expected. Moving Honda on the issue?????

[Victor Benz]

While I do not disagree, it is worthwhile looking at the VW emissions testing scandal in a wider light. One of the reasons that car makers have diesels throughout Europe is that all testing and rating criteria is set by the individual manufacturers in Europe with only tacit government approval, while in Canada and the US, that role has been undertaken by our governments for the "sake of impartiality". A desire to avoid potential lawsuits has led to a conservative approach to rating vehicles, whether for tow specs or for emissions. One only has to look at the recall notices for apparently identical vehicles here in North America versus Europe.


The question is, do you trust a car manufacturer that wants to sell you a vehicle to tell you what it can do, or a somewhat impartial government body?

[honda03842]

Victor,

Your question crosses the line, I'm sure...

......a car manufacturer... or impartial government body?

[Radar1]

There are many thoughts out there about why our USA tow ratings may be lower than those in other countries. I don't think I would want to tow more than the 2700 lb USA tow rating with my Subaru Outback even though it is rated higher overseas.
On the other hand, I believe my Hyundai Accent could safely handle my 250 lb canoe trailer load with no problem, even though Hyundai says towing "not recommended".

Frankly, our USA road structure is becoming horrible. Are there no longer any engineers or construction companies that can design a smooth approach from a highway to a bridge anymore? Those joints cause a heck of a stress on the hitch when you encounter the abrupt pitch, especially if you tow at some of the legal speeds in the USA. Most European countries seem to impose a speed limit on towed vehicles which makes for safer towing with heavier loads, while in the USA many states do not limit speeds and those that do are rarely enforced. Higher speeds and rougher roads may be one of the reasons the USA tow specs are lower.

[mary and bob]

[QUOTE=Radar1;553302]
Frankly, our USA road structure is becoming horrible. Are there no longer any engineers or construction companies that can design a smooth approach from a highway to a bridge anymore?

I comment about this all the time, but apparently there is a reason. I was told that bridges don't get repaved at the same time as the highway because it would change the original load design of the bridge by adding the weight of new pavement. True or not ???

[floyd]

Regulation of weight limits in my state starts at 6000 pounds by registration. This is why it is important to educate yourself and take personal responsibility for the choices you make.
Common sense is largely maligned today as hubris.

[Bob Miller]

Originally Posted by Bill in Pittsburgh

(clip)
I would be pleased to see a massive effort by members of this site and other RV sites to mount a petition campaign to encourage and possibly make the auto industry aware of a market for reasonably sized vehicles needed for towing.
JUST MY NOT SO HUMBLE OPINION.

So far, the trailers on this site represent a minute portion of the towing public, 2% at the most, not much impact there.

And... just today, I was at the California RV Show and I gotta say, there wasn't much there that could be towed by a midsized vehicle. Today's idea of a "Lite" trailer seems to start at 2500 lbs dry weight, pretty much ruling out mid-size passenger car towing.

Of the hundreds of RV's claimed to be on display, maybe 1/3 were towables, and 1/2 of those were 5th wheels leaving, maybe 15% of them that a passenger car might tow, and they ranged to upwards of 12000 lbs in many instances.

There were a few displays of "A" liners types, three T@B's, the VDUB Camper /Trailer look-alike, a few teardrops and a few tent trailers that might be sedan towable, but the rest, by default, were mid to large SUV and Pick-Up truck candidates.

In short, there isn't yet a light trailer market, so there isn't a sufficient demand for vehicles with which to tow them.

Bottom line: In looking at the RV marketplace, there really isn't a market for the vehicle we might like to have.

And... European vehicle/towing standards, licensing requirements and speed limits are generally much more restrictive than US requirements.

In selling a vehicle in the U.S. market, when setting tow limits, the manufacturer has to plan for, among other factors, of the possibility a 16 year old driver, with 3 months driving experience, pulling a trailer at up to 80 mph, all legally, not so in Europe. It's a tough business to be in and we are, at best, a tiny part of it.

[Lee Senn]

While I agree that tow ratings in the U S of A are generally understated there are some factors in the U S of A vs Europe that may have some impact. A really high temperature in most of Europe would be 85 to 90 degrees and for instance towing across the entire country of Germany would be roughly a 400 mile drive. whereas in the USA traveling from Los Angeles to San Antonio ( 1350 miles ) you could tow for three or maybe four days in unrelenting 100 degree plus temps. According to the web ( and we all know the web can't be wrong ) the highest pass in Europe is just over 10,000 ft with most passes there around 8000 ft. In Colorado alone we have 17 passes over 9000 ft, 15 over 10,000 ft, 7 over 11,000 ft and 3 at or over 12,000 ft, again all info from the web. I agree that towing decisions are up to the tug owner if made within reason ( I wouldn't attempt to tow a 26 foot Airstream with a mini-cooper ) but some of the above may be mitigating factors when american car manufacturers set tow ratings. I forgot to mention that we in america are doing all of the above at speeds of 70 mph plus vs 55 maybe 60 in Europe.

[floyd]

Originally Posted by Bob Miller

In short, there isn't yet a light trailer market, so there isn't a sufficient demand for vehicles with which to tow them.

Bottom line: In looking at the RV marketplace, there really isn't a market for the vehicle we might like to have.

There is certainly a market for the Ranger, not presently available in North America, solely due to reasons unrelated to demand.

[Bob Miller]

Perhaps Chevrolet/GMC's re-entry into the mid-sized truck market will prompt others to return and compete against Toyota and Nissan.


But I got the impression that the o.p. was lamenting the lack of sedans with adequate towing capacities, vs. having to buy pick-ups.

[redbarron55]

Perhaps the lack of tow ratings on cars drives the market towards large vehicles and larger campers?
I have little interest in driving a truck instead of my station wagon and this drives my interest in the Scamp I bought.
Europe has a rating system very much like the SAE rating now in voluntary use by the US manufacturers, but it is not voluntary. Each vehicle must be tested and all of the towing equipment type accepted ant tested and mounted in accordance with manufacturer's instructions. It has been said here that this may limit choices, but there are many types of small trailers available over there and they are quite highly developed unless you consider their system of mechanical surge brakes primitive.
I have no idea if it is the egg or chicken or chicken or egg first, but it would be nice if there were studies and ratings for US cars.
Personally I believe the physics involved are the same on both sides of the pond.
Since there is no need to argue I will see if I can let my input end there.

[Radar1]

I was surprised to see that Jeep is actually raising the tow limit for the 2 door Wrangler from 2000 lbs to 3500 lbs with the 2016 model. In the past you had to get the 4 door unlimited to get the 3500 lb rating.
I wish Subaru would put the Foresters rating back to 2400 vs the current 1500.

[steve dunham]

I bought a full size pickup truck because I wanted a full size pickup truck . I would have bought my truck whether I planned to tow a travel trailer or not. Not everyone wants to drive a small SUV nor was I tricked into buying a truck by some Machovelian plot fabricated by the Auto Manufacturers. We recently looked at some "ultralight " stick built trailers and the lightest trailer was over 4500 lbs dry weight. It appears trailers are getting bigger and heavier just like our homes. Maybe the auto industry is just following the trend.

[floyd]

Originally Posted by Bob Miller

Perhaps Chevrolet/GMC's re-entry into the mid-sized truck market will prompt others to return and compete against Toyota and Nissan.


But I got the impression that the o.p. was lamenting the lack of sedans with adequate towing capacities, vs. having to buy pick-ups.

I too was hopeful when GM announced the return of the Colorado.
Unfortunately it is HUGE and could only be called a fullsized truck by any reasonable standard. It is larger and more expensive than previous fullsized pickup platforms.
In my town there are streets which are sometimes completely blocked by oversized pickups which take two parking spots wide and long enough to literally block the street lane behind them. No really, an average man can not even look inside the box.... when is this going to end.
The old carpenter's adage (paraphrased) applies here...
Measure your garage twice, buy your truck once.

I would like to see the white line lane marker on in town streets with angle parking and if your truck won't fit behind it, you don't park there.
Already many parking structures even can't fit a so called "fullsized" truck.
Looking from above, we are starting to look like an "N"gauge world with "O"gauge trucks blocking the streets.

[Jon in AZ]

I'll have to agree, Floyd. Trucks are very popular out here in the rural West, and the parking lot a Walmart is typically clogged with oversized trucks that stick out beyond the end of the parking space. I was next to a double cab Tundra last week where almost the entire bed stuck out into the driving lane! My inner vigilante wants to carry a roll of masking tape and mark on the truck's body where the end of the parking space is...

[David Tilston]

Originally Posted by redbarron55

Europe has a rating system very much like the SAE rating now in voluntary use by the US manufacturers, but it is not voluntary. Each vehicle must be tested and all of the towing equipment type accepted ant tested and mounted in accordance with manufacturer's instructions. It has been said here that this may limit choices, but there are many types of small trailers available over there and they are quite highly developed unless you consider their system of mechanical surge brakes primitive.

What I would like to see is mandatory, standardized, tow testing, even for vehicles that are not recommended to tow. How expensive could this be? This way marketing is not the driving force behind tow ratings.

Why is the Smart car rated to tow 500 lbs, when my Firefly, with a much longer wheel base, is not rated to tow anything?

[Bob Miller]

Originally Posted by steve dunham

I bought a full size pickup truck because I wanted a full size pickup truck . I would have bought my truck whether I planned to tow a travel trailer or not. Not everyone wants to drive a small SUV nor was I tricked into buying a truck by some Machovelian plot fabricated by the Auto Manufacturers. We recently looked at some "ultralight " stick built trailers and the lightest trailer was over 4500 lbs dry weight. It appears trailers are getting bigger and heavier just like our homes. Maybe the auto industry is just following the trend.

I was just at the California RV Show at the L.A. Fairgrounds and I did see a number of 17' &19' single axle stickys under that weight. A few down around 2700 lbs and a about 6 in the 3500 lb range, albeit all dry weights and no where near FGRV weight's. But they are all bigger in all directions. A 3400 lb sticky with tilt out ends, that can sleep 8 comfortably, for well under $18k is hard to walk by when one has a big family and a modest budget.