VW Diesel Cheating - Page 4 - Fiberglass RV


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Old 09-21-2015, 08:56 AM   #43
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Check out the hit to Vw stock
Payback/karma ?


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Old 09-21-2015, 09:14 AM   #44
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Okay, so what next?

Of course, we could just wait and see... but what fun is that?

Will there be a programming fix that satisfies the EPA and the owners? Will they be forced (and is it even possible) to retrofit a urea system? Will there be some compromise that allows grandfathered vehicles to exceed the NOx standard by a negotiated amount, but requires future sales to fully meet the standard? Will VW pull small diesels from the US market entirely? Or...?

Who wants to go out on a limb?

The whole thing does make me wonder what may be lurking in the software of the vehicle parked in my driveway.
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Old 09-21-2015, 09:52 AM   #45
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I'm a sucker for forecasting and I have a long and obviously repeatable history of doing it poorly. In this case there remains too much that we don't know.

I'd bet that the engineers did write code that met the law. Based on my experience (in software, not the auto business) I'd further bet that marketing hubris is the underlying problem and that they "ordered" alternate "superior" code be installed.

Presuming that I'm right so far what will determine the final outcome will be the difference in driveability with the "legal code".

If the cars can't meet the law without urea then 1) I'd still bet marketing is to blame, and 2) the cost will exceed that of a "large slap on the backside".

My track record as a forecaster really is poor, but blaming marketing is usually right.
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Old 09-21-2015, 10:15 AM   #46
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The "testing" mode degraded performance to achieve passing the emission tests. And the software was automated to switch into that mode when plugged into standard test equipment.

VW admits it and says it was a poor decision (do ya think?) I think the fine should be fairly hefty, all the other manufactures who did not cheat were at a disadvantage in this market. Test drive performance for VW was not on a level playing field with the other auto makers. To get a clean burn with turbo might well cost some MPG in addition to performance.

The people who bought those cars are in a pickle, they can't pass emissions tests now that the testers know to test without hooking up. If they get a software fix that allows them to pass emissions test the performance will be degraded. The cars have suddenly lost resale value for these reasons.

The loss of performance, possible loss of MPG in clean mode, potential extra cost to emission test, loss of resale value are all the stuff that give a class action lawyer sweet dreams. Pretty sure VW lawyers are smart enough to get EPA settlement that specifies it is settling the issue of causing additional pollution harm so the owners won't have a cause of action on that front.

Then I would bet there will be a sudden market in "mode switch" chips or systems that allow the owner to switch between test and performance programming. Strictly for testing and diagnosis of course. Sort of like the pipe that replaced the catalytic converter. Just for testing wink wink nudge nudge. Some people given a choice between loss of MPG and performance vs. greater pollution will be willing to game the system and make such after market changes. Humans tend to be pretty good at rationalizing choices they find to their advantage. The market will rush to meet that need and make that money same as the class action lawyers would.

Who knows the after market chip and drop in resale value could combine to make the used VW diesel one of those sweet deals people in the know snatch up. Like the less expensive Pontiac Vibe really being a more expensive Toyota made them a hot deal for awhile. Until everyone figured it out, now used Vibes are same price as used Toyota version.
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Old 09-21-2015, 10:33 AM   #47
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No EPA settlement will have any effect on the filing of individual or class action suits against VW for misleading advertising, fraud and loss of value. The class action lawyers probably spent the weekend getting new TV advertisements ready to drum up customers.


And the longer VW drags this out, the deader the horse will become.




Auf Wiedersehen VW of America, it was a good run until you screwed up.....
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Old 09-21-2015, 11:41 AM   #48
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No EPA settlement will have any effect on the filing of individual or class action suits against VW for misleading advertising, fraud and loss of value. The class action lawyers probably spent the weekend getting new TV advertisements ready to drum up customers.


And the longer VW drags this out, the deader the horse will become.




Auf Wiedersehen VW of America, it was a good run until you screwed up.....
Yep the EPA settlement could only deal with the owners suing for the pollution they caused because of VW cheating. Would not prevent a "you made us pollute" suit being brought but my guess is the EPA settlement would make that a losing proposition.

Now misleading advertising as being "Clean" diesel that might have some legs.

You are probably right, in some budget TV studio right now there is a stage director hollering "get those boxes of law books and the dark wood bookshelves onto the set" And "that CD of strong but compassionate background music, you know the one".
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Old 09-21-2015, 01:15 PM   #49
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Even the EPA can't dismiss "Pain and Suffering" on the part of an owner that sold his youngest son just to be able to afford the advertised super clean diesel VW, only to find out that he was polluting up to 40 times over specification. That would be devastating to some, especially as they become subject to peer group ridicule..... yada, yada, yada.
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Old 09-21-2015, 06:29 PM   #50
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If performance takes a hit when the fix is installed, who's going to visit the dealer to get the fix installed?

In Minnesota, we don't have emission testing. When we did, it was kind of a joke. Even my very old car that was not in the greatest of tune passed the sniff test.

Do other states emission tests plug into the car's computer to see if the latest firmware has been loaded into the computer?

--Dan Meyer
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Old 09-21-2015, 07:04 PM   #51
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If performance takes a hit when the fix is installed, who's going to visit the dealer to get the fix installed?

In Minnesota, we don't have emission testing. When we did, it was kind of a joke. Even my very old car that was not in the greatest of tune passed the sniff test.

Do other states emission tests plug into the car's computer to see if the latest firmware has been loaded into the computer?

--Dan Meyer
Years ago we had a car that was only 4 old yet it failed the Minnesota emissions test every year. We would have our mechanic make adjustments in order to pass the test then after the test he would readjust it back to the original settings. When set to pass the emissons test we lost 4 to 5 MPG.
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Old 09-21-2015, 07:26 PM   #52
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Glad you didn't mention his name or the name of his shop!
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Old 09-21-2015, 07:42 PM   #53
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Glad you didn't mention his name or the name of his shop!
Unfortunately he closed up shop and died shortly there after.
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Old 09-21-2015, 09:07 PM   #54
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Unfortunately he closed up shop and died shortly there after.
I wonder he died due to respiratory failure due to air pollution?
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Old 09-21-2015, 09:19 PM   #55
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Things have change since "Years Ago"


Today most new cars don't have a first emissions inspection until they are 5 years old, and most pass for the next several inspections unless an owner/mechanic has screwed with them. The old 4-5 MPG loss with emissions equipment in place has become an old wives tale with newer cars.


As far as assuring compliance, all a state has to do is require that the vehicle's owner have proof of installation of the new software before the next years registration is issued. No Tickee - No Registration, Easy Peasy, and you can be sure that VW will get to pay for that as well.
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Old 09-21-2015, 09:33 PM   #56
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I don't know a lot about the CO emission testing. What I think I know is that it includes only the six counties that are the Denver metro area. They place trucks with instruments on entrance ramps to interstates. I've never seen them elsewhere but I don't visit Denver often. Anecdotally they seem to always be on downhill ramps. (Why can't I ever enter on a downhill ramp?) I think if you fail you need to go for a test at a fixed site and the test will remind you of rectal thermometers from your youth.

I speculate that the system goes after the low-hanging-fruit (gas engines) and they ignore diesels. I don't actually know that.
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