VW Diesel Cheating - Page 6 - Fiberglass RV


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Old 09-22-2015, 02:26 PM   #71
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Darwin,

The opportunity to sell short exists for everyone. VW will easily survive this situation, GM survived their's thru the grace of the taxpayers.

At some point one should be a buyer of VW stock (to make money).

We keep our cars for 10 years and have never failed an emissions test nor have we ever had an engine repair with our Hondas, Legend, Porsche or Audi. I can't remember the last time I've met someone who's failed an emission test. Today's cars seem to have emissions mastered.

I see more diesel powered trucks in hard acceleration spewing black smoke than anything else these days, the type many tow with. I really don't understand why.

I also don't understand why VW diesels pass emissions tests. I thought the reading of the OBD for emissions was some kind of accumulated data, is this not true?
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Old 09-22-2015, 02:31 PM   #72
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I looked up the OBD emissions test. It does require you to drive the car for one week if you replace your battery or clear your OBD faults. Therefore, it appears that the OBD test reads the accumulated emissions information. It seems that this implies the OBD test simply reports that all equipment has worked as designed for a week.

Interested in other info if you have any.
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Old 09-22-2015, 02:46 PM   #73
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Well, for one, that 737 or whatever cruises well above the part of the atmosphere that traps emissions at or near ground level. What happens at 30,000 feet tend to stay at 30,000 feet. And, even a 737 will take about 150 vehicles off the road for the length of the trip.


When I drive from Riverside to Chelan it takes about $210 in gas + 1200 more miles on my vehicle + meals + 2 days time. When I fly it's about $135.00 and about 4-5 hours total time. So that's a lot of pollution that doesn't get into the air
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Old 09-22-2015, 03:01 PM   #74
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Darwin,

I see more diesel powered trucks in hard acceleration spewing black smoke than anything else these days, the type many tow with. I really don't understand why.
There is a large business culture devoted to modifying cars and trucks. Buying a "tune" isn't the same as going to Apple though.

One example of a truck diesel "tuner" is Got a 2011-2016 6.7L Super Duty Diesel ? - 5 Star Tuning. I have no idea if this example is one that creates the offensive carbon dust or not.
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Old 09-22-2015, 03:19 PM   #75
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Things have change since "Years Ago"


Today most new cars don't have a first emissions inspection until they are 5 years old, and most pass for the next several inspections unless an owner/mechanic has screwed with them.
Here in BC we did away with emissions inspections a couple of years ago completely! Not enough cars on the road that were failing the test to justify the tax money being spent to keep inspection stations open as well as the fact due to the small number of cars failing they could not claim to be doing much in the way of helping the cleaner air situation.
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Old 09-22-2015, 03:37 PM   #76
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Well, for one, that 737 or whatever cruises well above the part of the atmosphere that traps emissions at or near ground level. What happens at 30,000 feet tend to stay at 30,000 feet. And, even a 737 will take about 150 vehicles off the road for the length of the trip.


When I drive from Riverside to Chelan it takes about $210 in gas + 1200 more miles on my vehicle + meals + 2 days time. When I fly it's about $135.00 and about 4-5 hours total time. So that's a lot of pollution that doesn't get into the air
A passenger jet uses about 2000 gallons of fuel just on take-off...from the ground to cruising altitude. (13 gallons per passenger) Not the whole trip and not counting to and from the airport(s).


A VW diesel uses about 25 gallons to go 1200 miles. (6 gallons per passenger) The whole trip!
So just how much NOx do you figure?... Probably MUCH less than that used to clear the lines on the average drag racer at the starting line.

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Old 09-22-2015, 05:07 PM   #77
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A passenger jet uses about 2000 gallons of fuel just on take-off...from the ground to cruising altitude. (13 gallons per passenger) Not the whole trip and not counting to and from the airport(s).

A VW diesel uses about 25 gallons to go 1200 miles. (6 gallons per passenger) The whole trip!
So just how much NOx do you figure?... Probably MUCH less than that used to clear the lines on the average drag racer at the starting line.
I flew from Salt Lake to Denver on an A319 or A320 (can't remember and don't know the difference). The jet stream was both particularly fast and perfectly placed. The pilot said that we consumed 750 gallons. Presuming that we weren't lied to and that I heard right, flying can't be beat when conditions are perfect and the plane is full.
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Old 09-22-2015, 05:16 PM   #78
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An eight (8) month loop of the USA with our Honda CRV and Scamp 16 used about 1,000 gallons of gas for towing and exploring (non-towing).
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Old 09-22-2015, 05:37 PM   #79
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VW's solution reminds me of Captain Kirk's solution to the kobayashi maru test. Only, there are better solutions in this case, as evidenced by the cleaner diesels sold by other mfrs.

I always thought highly of VWs. My father drove a couple of those diesel Rabbits in the late '70s and early '80s (maybe PA ones?) and I always thought I'd have one some day too. But the '98 Jetta Wolfsburg gasser I eventually bought left a bad taste in my mouth. Constant 'check engine light' problems, electrical gremlins (especially in damp weather), cheap plastic parts that discolored and broke easily, etc.
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Old 09-22-2015, 06:07 PM   #80
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There's an interesting chart in this link that translates commercial aircraft fuel consumption to passenger seat MPG. For the most part it looks like, unless you can carry more than 4 passengers, that the airlines win on fuel economy.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_economy_in_aircraft


And yes, they use more fuel on take off, but they are on much lower consumption levels during the 30 minute descent/approach before landing.
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Old 09-22-2015, 06:57 PM   #81
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According to a friend Consumers Reports has a pretty good breakdown of what is going on. Did provide a how did they pass when being tested but not on the road.

The ECM (electronic control module) shifted program parameters if the front wheels where turning but the rear wheels were not. EPA and many test facilities put the car on a two wheel dynamometer so just the powered front wheels are turning during a test.

Essentially a variation of how an ECM can go into limp home mode in response to certain conditions. In the alternative mode the car is run with a hard coded set of parameters simply designed to make the car run, rather than a dynamic set of parameters that changes in response to speed, acceleration, load etc. in an attempt to optimize performance.

Pretty much anytime you drive a car with the check engine light on the computer is going to shift into an alternate mode, VW just used the wheel rotation sensors to run one that would pass the EPA tests.

I'm guessing but if the engineers were to focus on making the standard program perform as well as it could while staying under emissions limits I bet they could actually deliver decent performance. With the "fix" in place they just didn't have to so they went straight at performance.

Might be little lost performance wise with a new ECM program that passes emissions tests. Could be an opportunity, gamble on the vehicle being ok long term and pick one up cheap since owners may drop the price with the uncertainty. Or VW might come back with some good deals to entice buyers as soon as this gets addressed. VW makes some good cars I think they will be ok long term and with the stock down 30% might be a deal to be had there.

Like they say shooting pool. No guts, no glory.
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Old 09-22-2015, 07:01 PM   #82
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OK assume that VW fooled the EPA test. How do they fool the yearly test?
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Old 09-22-2015, 07:28 PM   #83
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OK assume that VW fooled the EPA test. How do they fool the yearly test?
Have no idea, we don't have those here and have not had a chance to read further.

I thought the test places put the drive wheels on dynamometer to test. Including the state mandated annual one.

I could also see where the testing equipment being plugged into the car might be used to trip a change in routine when the communication link was being negotiated between the two computers.

Sort of a "oh your one of those things" run shift mode program. Considering that clearing is as simple as knowing which pins to jump.... might be pretty easy to tell what is plugged in simply by what pins it uses.

I also don't know if they even test for this particular exhaust gas in state tests.

VW has issued one of the bluntest and straight up admissions of guilt today. That is rare, but it was yep we screwed up, you got a raw deal, we are here to take our lumps, we earned them. If nothing else someone's parents raised someone to stand up and admit their mistakes. How they did it is an interesting question, but that they did it is not in doubt since the president of the company and the board said they did.
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Old 09-22-2015, 07:35 PM   #84
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Phil Edmonston, author of Lemon-Aid car guides, suggests this isn't over yet, what with executive cross-pollination in the industry. He said some may have rejected the 'fix', but other auto companies are likely to have found the solution convenient.
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