VW Diesel Cheating - Fiberglass RV


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Old 09-18-2015, 02:35 PM   #1
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VW Diesel Cheating

Ouch!

This looks like a huge black eye for the largest manufacturer of affordable small diesels for the North American market. The EPA is accusing VW of programming the engine to run clean when being tested but 40 times dirtier (NOx) when running on the highway. Performance may be reduced when running in the "clean" mode, which will presumably be all the time after the recall is done. Now the game will be forcing 482K owners to get their engines reprogrammed… when there's little incentive to do so.

The engine in question is the 2.0L TDI popular with some for towing small eggs.

Hmmm…

EPA: 482K VW diesel vehicles violated emissions rules

https://www.yahoo.com/autos/volkswag...357726737.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/19/bu...ware.html?_r=0
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Old 09-18-2015, 04:13 PM   #2
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Car manufacturers have all manipulated the MPG figures for as long as I can remember.

Should you want to change the software programming on your vehicle, there are companies where you can purchase the device to do so.
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Old 09-18-2015, 09:11 PM   #3
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I hope I'm not misunderstanding your point, Darwin, but it seems to me this isn't about fudging MPG numbers. It's about fraudulently evading federal emissions standards. Mileage may have been a motivation, though that is not clear from the sources.

As an aside, I haven't personally experienced the MPG manipulation you refer to. Not saying it doesn't happen (Hyundai and Ford C-Max come to mind), but the last seven vehicles we have owned, from three different manufacturers, have all met or exceeded EPA mileage estimates in long-term use.
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Old 09-18-2015, 10:10 PM   #4
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I haven't yet heard what VW has to say but it sure smells like fraud so far.
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Old 09-18-2015, 10:13 PM   #5
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Hi Jon,

I heard this story today on NPR. Yes, between recalls and fines, VW will pay dearly for their deception. I am a TDI fan, but this looks like another case of corporate greed to me.

Interesting,

Dean
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Old 09-19-2015, 04:58 AM   #6
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It seems just about every vehicle I look at has a diesel engine that can not be used in the US. Different standards implies competing experts. I doubt the folks in Europe want dirty air anymore than we do. And while diesel engines in cars are rare here, if you go to a place that sells tractors, once you get above lawn mowers, they are all diesels. Apparently different standards apply. . Raz
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Old 09-19-2015, 08:21 AM   #7
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Since I have a 2009 and a 2013 2.0 L. TDI that this will apply to I am very interested in the outcome!
These are great cars, but can have expensive problems and now the obvious corporate cheating and violations of the law endangering the general population with air pollution.
I wonder the extent of the required recall and the overall effect on the performance, mileage and reliability.
At a maximum fine of $37,000 per car totaling almost 18 Billion dollars it is also a major hit to the bottom line of VW.
Of course this may be the work of a limited group within the company, but the responsibility still rests with the company.
Clean Diesel seems to be a little bit off the mark now!
Still the little Diesel does a great job as delivered (except for that being illegal thing).
I wonder what the impact to the owners will be? I bought the cars based on performance and fuel mileage. If it is appreciably degraded I will be dissappointed to say the least!
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Old 09-19-2015, 09:36 AM   #8
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My state of Colorado has emission testing in the Denver area. There are testing centers around. However, the folks doing the testing have come up with a clever method that involves vans posted beside the road that can read your license plate and check what comes out of your tailpipe while you drive by. If you get three good readings in a certain period of time, then you're exempted from having to take your car to the testing center. I would be curious to know how the VW vehicles are getting around this.
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Old 09-19-2015, 09:46 AM   #9
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Jon in AZ, Boy did ever miss the point on that. I had a brain fart for sure. Thanks for the correction.
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Old 09-19-2015, 10:03 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Terry G View Post
My state of Colorado has emission testing in the Denver area. There are testing centers around. However, the folks doing the testing have come up with a clever method that involves vans posted beside the road that can read your license plate and check what comes out of your tailpipe while you drive by. If you get three good readings in a certain period of time, then you're exempted from having to take your car to the testing center. I would be curious to know how the VW vehicles are getting around this.
California has had "Smog Cams" for years, but the purpose is just the opposite. If you are spotted spewing excessive emissions you get a notice from the state to get an emissions inspection within30 days or your registration will be cancelled.

The last report I saw on that program a few years back was that about 75% of the cars spotted were taken off the road.
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Old 09-19-2015, 10:08 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by redbarron55 View Post
Since I have a 2009 and a 2013 2.0 L. TDI that this will apply to I am very interested in the outcome!
These are great cars, but can have expensive problems and now the obvious corporate cheating and violations of the law endangering the general population with air pollution.
I wonder the extent of the required recall and the overall effect on the performance, mileage and reliability.
At a maximum fine of $37,000 per car totaling almost 18 Billion dollars it is also a major hit to the bottom line of VW.
Of course this may be the work of a limited group within the company, but the responsibility still rests with the company.
Clean Diesel seems to be a little bit off the mark now!
Still the little Diesel does a great job as delivered (except for that being illegal thing).
I wonder what the impact to the owners will be? I bought the cars based on performance and fuel mileage. If it is appreciably degraded I will be dissappointed to say the least!
Somehow I doubt very seriously they will get the maximum fine. I think the feds will weigh setting a strong example against crippling a large corporation with a major economic presence in the US. Hyundai was fined $100M for fudging MPG numbers. GM was fined $900M for the ignition switch cover-up. This case seems more egregious than the former, but less so than the latter.

The Justice Department has been making noises about more criminal prosecutions in corporate fraud cases. The financial industry was primarily indicated, but I wonder if they will make an example here. I think criminal prosecution might have more impact on corporate behavior than fines, which are paid using someone else's money.

I'm with you, JD, in wondering how mileage and performance will be affected by the fix, and whether a urea injection system will ultimately be required.

It is disappointing. I want to like VW, but between reliability and now this…

But then, our last three vehicle purchases were a 2000 Toyota Sienna 3.0L that was the subject of a class action lawsuit over premature engine failure, a 2006 Honda CR-V that was caught in the Takata recall and cover-up, and a 2011 Honda Pilot 3.5L that is the subject of another class action lawsuit over the cylinder-cutoff system. You're 0 for 2. I'm 0 for 3! And in fairness, all three have given reliable service, though at 70K the jury is still out on the Pilot.

Maybe we just expect too much!
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Old 09-19-2015, 10:28 AM   #12
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I'd hold out judgement until I heard more about the actual facts. I wouldn't be surprised if VW has a test mode because the EPA regulations (and test methods) may demand it. There's no way to test all cars for all conditions (temp, altitude, humidity, load, fuel, etc.) so I suspect they have standard test sets to make setup and data collection more efficient and reliable. One team of engineers with their agenda puts out their rules and the next team of engineers is challenged to optimize their machine to meet them plus the demands of the marketplace. Sorry, but I don't trust the editors at the NYT to wait until someone digs into the technical details (especially if it could get in the way of a splashy, exaggerated headline). More facts will come out I hope and we'll see.
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Old 09-19-2015, 10:33 AM   #13
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This is nasty. Shame on VW for trying to cheat.
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Old 09-19-2015, 10:41 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Jon in AZ View Post
It is disappointing. I want to like VW, but between reliability and now this…

But then, our last three vehicle purchases were a 2000 Toyota Sienna 3.0L that was the subject of a class action lawsuit over premature engine failure, a 2006 Honda CR-V that was caught in the Takata recall and cover-up, and a 2011 Honda Pilot 3.5L that is the subject of another class action lawsuit over the cylinder-cutoff system. You're 0 for 2. I'm 0 for 3! (In fairness, all three have given reliable service, though at 70K the jury is still out on the Pilot.)

Maybe we just expect too much!
Takata Recall.

Sometimes there's a general design failure that does not become obvious in the short term. 12 companies used the Takata airbag component over 19,000,000 vehicles were involved.

Our CRV was also part of the recall.
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