What are your thoughts? - Page 5 - Fiberglass RV


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 06-10-2011, 12:25 AM   #57
Senior Member
 
Name: George
Trailer: Waiting for the Sprinter van and designing the converion modules.
Oregon
Posts: 629
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiL Snoozy View Post
It seems that once again I have started a heated discussion, whether or not that is a good thing I don't know. I read the article in question while waiting my turn getting a hair cut. I did not realize that a simple request for opinions would spark such a heated thread. Had I known that I would have kept the magazine and scanned it. Sadly I do not have it to produce. The article was stressing the importance of LP fume/CO detectors, proper maintenance and education, siting deaths a possible penalty. If memory serves me correctly it was an older issue of Yachting.
I was asking the forum's opinion only, not pointing blame or criticizing any manufacture. A poster said:

Quote "Several other posters, early and late in this thread, have asked for details related to Nicholas' assertions of "fact".
I never mentioned the word fact nor did I elude that the artical was fact. I stated the concerns I had and asked the forums opinions, is that different from what we all do here?

You are correct Francesca, I am a manufacture. I am on this forum trying to gather information for the betterment of my company as well as the betterment and promotion of my product. Learning what the consumer wants and then build it with quality are the best ways to create products consumers want to buy. When I first joined Fiberglass RV, I knew what I wanted in a camper. Since joining I have learned what other RV'ers want, like and need. We did not start this company to NOT sell campers, that would be bad for buisness you see. I take what I learn here and try to build a better product. I realize that it is impossible to please every one.

You are also correct in your assumption that I would prefer ya'll to choose a Lil Snoozy over other brands "for any reason that works. " YES I am very proud of my product. If I wasn't proud of the Lil Snoozy, why would I want to build them? Escape, Scamp, Casita, etc are wonderful options. As long as it isn't a "tin can" you really can't go wrong.

I very much enjoy the candidness of this particular forum, hence the reason I still ask and answer question. I will continue to ask and answer questions and opinions. As for promoting my product, Lil Snoozy is my screen name Nicholas is my real name. I will post updates on the the camper, as well as let the members know what rallies the Lil Snoozy will be attending. (The Lil Snoozy will be at the PA Ralley in July, spot 130.)
Nicholas
Perhaps I missed the point, but I have a hard time following the anxiety about this topic.
George.
__________________

__________________
GeorgeR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2011, 01:28 AM   #58
Senior Member
 
Carol H's Avatar
 
Name: Carol
Trailer: 22' Airstream Formerly 16' Scamp
British Columbia
Posts: 11,731
Registry
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpaharley2008 View Post
I'm surprised that Scamp, in installing the 3rd party refer, ignored the proper installation. The manufacturer of the refrigerator can only sell their product with instructions. If the vendor or in this case, Scamp ignores those instructions, who is the blame?
I am suprised also but I have to ask if anyone knows of or has heard of a problem resulting in a death or injury from how Scamp installs their fridges?

Logic tells me that Scamp has been venting to the side for more than 20 years (mine is 20 years old) and it would be a good bet they have been doing it for a lot more years than that. If there has been a death or serious injury that was found to be due to the incorrect install of the fridge I would think Scamp would have been sued and would have changed how they install them if it was found to be the reason for the problem. Logic also tells me that the fridge manufacture would have been named as a 3rd party -even if those involved had a good idea that the problem was with the install and not necessarly the fridge. The manufacture would have to spend money on legal fees just to prove the problem was not with their fridge but that it was all to do with how the fridge was incorrectly installed. Sadly that is how the legal system works. One would think the manufacturer would have stopped selling their fridges to Scamp if that was the case and they are concerned Scamp contiunes to do something unsafe with their product. Pretty easy to burn up any profit you make from selling Scamp fridges in legal fees if you are going to keep having to defend yourself in wrongful death or injury cases even if you win every time.

Is it just me or does something not add up? Could it be that no one has died or been seriously injured from Scamp install pratices? How many trailers with fridges have they turned out in the past 20 years?
__________________

__________________
Carol H is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2011, 05:14 AM   #59
Senior Member
 
Barrie Bochoff's Avatar
 
Name: Barrie
Trailer: 13 ft Trillium (sold 1/1/12)
New Brunswick
Posts: 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carol H View Post
I am suprised also but I have to ask if anyone knows of or has heard of a problem resulting in a death or injury from how Scamp installs their fridges?
It is likely that Scamp is working with the manufacturer's of their appliances to ensure proper installation. If they want to use an alternate installation strategy they probably got it approved before going ahead. Not only would there be a potential concern for safety but an improperly installed appliance would void the warranty should a problem arise.
Barrie
__________________
Barrie Bochoff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2011, 06:06 AM   #60
Senior Member
 
cpaharley2008's Avatar
 
Name: jim
Trailer: 2016 2ndGen Escape19 Prairie Schooner pulled by 2014 Dodge Ram Hemi Sport
Pennsylvania
Posts: 6,398
Registry
Nick,
I'm in spot #132- looking forward to meeting you and Lil Snoozy.
__________________
cpaharley2008 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2011, 07:33 AM   #61
Senior Member
 
Name: Mr
Trailer: small
State
Posts: 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrie Bochoff View Post
It is likely that Scamp is working with the manufacturer's of their appliances to ensure proper installation. If they want to use an alternate installation strategy they probably got it approved before going ahead. Not only would there be a potential concern for safety but an improperly installed appliance would void the warranty should a problem arise.
Barrie
Since I brought up the installation of the fridge in Scamps, I should probably address this. My knowledge on the topic stems from phone conversations with both Scamp and Dometic USA. The topic was not primarily safety, but fridge performance. I should point out that I was not talking to primaries in either company, but to telephone support people.

Scamp just asked me a bunch of questions about how the fridge was installed, to confirm that it was actually installed "correctly" according to their standard. It was, so they suggested I contact Dometic.

Dometic asked what kind of venting was installed, and immediately targeted the sidewall ventilation. They said they have had a lot of issues, particularly with Scamps (fridge not getting cold enough, or staying cold enough during travel), and sort of testily pointed out that the install specifications they provide are there for good reasons, performance being one, and safety being another. He explained the need for the properly sized flue for updraft purposes, just like your furnace or gas water heater at home needs to be properly vented. He also stressed the necessity for a complete seal between the combustion air and the interior of the camper.

At no time was it stated or implied that anyone has actually been killed or injured by Scamp's installation, but just that a substandard installation will result in substandard performance, and substandard safety. The individual that I spoke with at Dometic stated that the company position is that it should not be installed in a sidewall vented situation.

On a side note, I suspect that the VAST majority of Scamps sold over the years have been sold with ice boxes, so the actual number of Scamps with fridges is relatively low. (Specifically Scamps, since I don't know how other companies install their fridge. I suspect Bigfoot, Casita, and Escape are sold with a higher proportion of fridges.) Of those, quite a number go unused, and of the fridges that do get used, the number that get used more that a few days a year is quite low. So, trying to get a meaningful sample of air quality comparisons might be hard. But, the idea isn't to prove a point definitively, but to 1) encourage people to use their LP appliances wisely, and 2) help a new manufacturer work through some product questions.

One other thing I need to point out -- my discussions with both companies were six years ago. I would not be aware if, perchance, Dometic has changed their standard in recent years. Check the installation manual.
__________________
Mr. W. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2011, 07:49 AM   #62
Senior Member
 
Name: Mr
Trailer: small
State
Posts: 226
One more thing... Please do not take my comments to be Scamp-bashing. I loved my Scamp, and have nothing bad to say about it. Scamps have their flaws, but all brands do. Scamp does not have the option of roof-venting the fridge, simply because of design, and they are clearly satisfied that their work-around is safe and adequate. I disagree with them on that point, so I re-sealed the compartment and added two exhaust fans.

Additionally, my comments have been targeted mostly at refrigerators. Furnaces and LP water heaters, by default, pretty much install properly to vent out the sidewall. Properly maintained and inspected, and if the fridge compartment is properly sealed, I believe LP appliances are safe when used as recommended (ie, don't heat with the stove, etc...)
__________________
Mr. W. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2011, 09:10 AM   #63
Senior Member
 
honda03842's Avatar
 
Name: Norm and Ginny
Trailer: Scamp 16
Florida
Posts: 7,300
Paul,

Thank you for sharing. It's important that we understand weaknesses, even if they typically aren't fatal or maybe even dangerous.

It is certain that the installation is not the most efficient and probably the result of the original design or maybe the constraints of small trailers for the Casita's installation seems very similar.

Again thanks, information is important and the true benefit of this site.

Norm
__________________
honda03842 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2011, 01:03 PM   #64
Senior Member
 
Carol H's Avatar
 
Name: Carol
Trailer: 22' Airstream Formerly 16' Scamp
British Columbia
Posts: 11,731
Registry
Thanks Paul for the clarification. I didn’t think you were Scamp bashing. I just worried that there may have been accidents I was not aware of, as I use my fridge on propane a fair bit. Here electrical outlets in provincial or national parks are a very rare thing to find. We have a slogan - Super Natural B.C. - apparently our government feels there is nothing natural about having electrical outlets in a campground.

My concern was with the suggestion that the fridge manufacture has safety concerns with Scamps installs which did not make sence to me. If they do have a safety concern it sure as heck cant be a serious one or they would have done something about it long ago. You are correct regarding most older scamps having ice boxes but I would suggest that your more likely to find a fridge in those manufactured since the late 80's or at least that has been my personal observation.

The great safety feature of propane is the smell! Last weekend while sitting around a fire at a vintage trailer rally, six of us all said the words “propane” at once and jumped up and where all about to go to our trailers to shut off pur tanks. Before we got more than a foot or two a fellow came out from the side of his trailer and while turning off his tank told us the problem was his. He was having problems lighting a 35 year old hot water tank. He was actually suprised we had smelled it so quickly as we where about 200' feet away and had large smelly campfire going.

Bottom line in this part of NA the vast majority of people have propane in their RV's and its used a lot with few accidents or at last not serious enough to be reported. Far more common to hear of guys burning down or blowing up parts of their home with an outdoor BQ :-)
__________________
Carol H is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2011, 01:54 PM   #65
Senior Member
 
cpaharley2008's Avatar
 
Name: jim
Trailer: 2016 2ndGen Escape19 Prairie Schooner pulled by 2014 Dodge Ram Hemi Sport
Pennsylvania
Posts: 6,398
Registry
Actually there are several other rv makers with dual side vents vs roof top venting. Airstream is one of them but they factory install a fan to help with the airflow.
__________________
cpaharley2008 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2011, 02:15 PM   #66
Senior Member
 
Name: Terry
Trailer: 1996 Casita Freedom Deluxe 17 ft
Colorado
Posts: 392
I think Nicholas asked an interesting question and I'm a bit surprised that it got taken so seriously. That's how it is to be a manufacturer--you makes your decisions and then you takes your chances if they were right. But just to add a bit more to the discussion, I recently bought a small condo in a Denver suburb. By the request of the local fire department, condo owners can no longer have gas or charcoal grills on their patios or balconies. Only electric grills are allowed. So yeah, maybe gas might be a problem in certain situations, but not necessarily in a trailer.
__________________
Terry G is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2011, 03:17 PM   #67
Senior Member
 
Francesca Knowles's Avatar
 
Name: Francesca Knowles
Trailer: '78 Trillium 4500
Jefferson County, Washington State, U.S.A.
Posts: 4,543
Registry
1978 Trillium 4500

Factory installed Dometic 3-way fridge still in use, primarily on propane.

Factory installed dual sidewall fridge venting, upper and lower.

No known propane-related deaths, illnesses, or injuries associated with this trailer.
Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC01235.JPG
Views:	4
Size:	122.5 KB
ID:	36845

Francesca
__________________
.................................
Propane Facts vs. Fiction:. Click here
Tow Limit Calculator: Click here
Francesca Knowles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2011, 04:38 PM   #68
Senior Member
 
Sharon G's Avatar
 
Name: Sharon
Trailer: 2005 Casita Spirit Deluxe
Georgia
Posts: 529
Carol, it's also been my experience that I always smell propane long before the propane detector goes off.

I think that's one of its greatest safety features.

After a ferocious winter storm back in the 90's when I was without power for 5 days in an all-electric house, I have insisted on having propane cook stoves in my home, too. Fortunately I have lived in rural areas where it is possible.

I wouldn't be without propane in a camper.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Carol H View Post
Thanks Paul for the clarification. I didn’t think you were Scamp bashing. I just worried that there may have been accidents I was not aware of, as I use my fridge on propane a fair bit. Here electrical outlets in provincial or national parks are a very rare thing to find. We have a slogan - Super Natural B.C. - apparently our government feels there is nothing natural about having electrical outlets in a campground.

My concern was with the suggestion that the fridge manufacture has safety concerns with Scamps installs which did not make sence to me. If they do have a safety concern it sure as heck cant be a serious one or they would have done something about it long ago. You are correct regarding most older scamps having ice boxes but I would suggest that your more likely to find a fridge in those manufactured since the late 80's or at least that has been my personal observation.

The great safety feature of propane is the smell! Last weekend while sitting around a fire at a vintage trailer rally, six of us all said the words “propane” at once and jumped up and where all about to go to our trailers to shut off pur tanks. Before we got more than a foot or two a fellow came out from the side of his trailer and while turning off his tank told us the problem was his. He was having problems lighting a 35 year old hot water tank. He was actually suprised we had smelled it so quickly as we where about 200' feet away and had large smelly campfire going.

Bottom line in this part of NA the vast majority of people have propane in their RV's and its used a lot with few accidents or at last not serious enough to be reported. Far more common to hear of guys burning down or blowing up parts of their home with an outdoor BQ :-)
__________________
Sharon G is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2011, 01:40 PM   #69
Senior Member
 
Mike Magee's Avatar
 
Name: Michael
Trailer: Li'l Hauley
Oklahoma
Posts: 5,142
Nicholas, your job is to build and sell trailers. Not to be the prospective owner's safety coach, conscience, or babysitter. What I'm trying to say is, I think you need to base your decision on what will help sell trailers and keep your company viable. Providing a component or system that might possibly cause harm to someone in some circumstance cannot be equated with, say, cheating or maiming someone purposely; so don't feel guilty about what might possibly go wrong. You have to buld units that people will want to buy. Scads of people want LP in their trailers. A few do not. I think the LP system probably should be standard (with optional deletion) or maybe optional install... but definitely offered. Refusing to install it, or even making potential customers feel uncomfortable about ordering it from you, would be an inadvisable decision businesswise.

Note too that people are not forced to use LP appliances once installed. So even if you installed LP standard with no optional deletion, folks are free to not use it if they so desire. But the opposite is not true... people cannot use a non-installed LP system!

By the way, were you going to be venting your fridge out the top or the side? In light of the recent comments on this subject, maybe a fan in the vent system would be in order if you're going out the side.
__________________
How much time do we have left? 2 Chr. 7:14
Mike Magee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2011, 03:11 PM   #70
Senior Member
 
Andrew GPSMapNut's Avatar
 
Name: Andrew
Trailer: Modified Trillium Jubilee
Ontario
Posts: 235
Registry
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpaharley2008 View Post
Actually there are several other rv makers with dual side vents vs roof top venting. Airstream is one of them but they factory install a fan to help with the airflow.
What's more, I'm yet to see a pop-up (tent) trailer with roof top vent for the fridge.
__________________

__________________
I wish to be one day at least half as good as I think I am today. Andrew Kalinowski
Photography: http://www.FotoCanada.ca
Maps: http://www.CanadianMaps.ca
GPS hobby: www.GPSNuts.com
Andrew GPSMapNut is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
trillium thoughts Stoney General Chat 18 09-12-2010 07:26 PM
A few more thoughts for the day Roy Bakehorn Jokes, Stories & Tall Tales 1 08-10-2010 04:39 PM
A Few Thoughts For The Day Frederick L. Simson Jokes, Stories & Tall Tales 1 07-31-2010 05:38 PM
beachcomber what are your thoughts? Hans Towel Classified Archives 10 12-11-2008 09:01 AM
Second Thoughts Carl O General Chat 16 02-24-2007 11:36 AM

» Upcoming Events
No events scheduled in
the next 465 days.
» Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:41 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.