What are your thoughts?

[Mr. W.]

Originally Posted by Barrie Bochoff

It is likely that Scamp is working with the manufacturer's of their appliances to ensure proper installation. If they want to use an alternate installation strategy they probably got it approved before going ahead. Not only would there be a potential concern for safety but an improperly installed appliance would void the warranty should a problem arise.
Barrie

Since I brought up the installation of the fridge in Scamps, I should probably address this. My knowledge on the topic stems from phone conversations with both Scamp and Dometic USA. The topic was not primarily safety, but fridge performance. I should point out that I was not talking to primaries in either company, but to telephone support people.

Scamp just asked me a bunch of questions about how the fridge was installed, to confirm that it was actually installed "correctly" according to their standard. It was, so they suggested I contact Dometic.

Dometic asked what kind of venting was installed, and immediately targeted the sidewall ventilation. They said they have had a lot of issues, particularly with Scamps (fridge not getting cold enough, or staying cold enough during travel), and sort of testily pointed out that the install specifications they provide are there for good reasons, performance being one, and safety being another. He explained the need for the properly sized flue for updraft purposes, just like your furnace or gas water heater at home needs to be properly vented. He also stressed the necessity for a complete seal between the combustion air and the interior of the camper.

At no time was it stated or implied that anyone has actually been killed or injured by Scamp's installation, but just that a substandard installation will result in substandard performance, and substandard safety. The individual that I spoke with at Dometic stated that the company position is that it should not be installed in a sidewall vented situation.

On a side note, I suspect that the VAST majority of Scamps sold over the years have been sold with ice boxes, so the actual number of Scamps with fridges is relatively low. (Specifically Scamps, since I don't know how other companies install their fridge. I suspect Bigfoot, Casita, and Escape are sold with a higher proportion of fridges.) Of those, quite a number go unused, and of the fridges that do get used, the number that get used more that a few days a year is quite low. So, trying to get a meaningful sample of air quality comparisons might be hard. But, the idea isn't to prove a point definitively, but to 1) encourage people to use their LP appliances wisely, and 2) help a new manufacturer work through some product questions.

One other thing I need to point out -- my discussions with both companies were six years ago. I would not be aware if, perchance, Dometic has changed their standard in recent years. Check the installation manual.

[Mr. W.]

One more thing... Please do not take my comments to be Scamp-bashing. I loved my Scamp, and have nothing bad to say about it. Scamps have their flaws, but all brands do. Scamp does not have the option of roof-venting the fridge, simply because of design, and they are clearly satisfied that their work-around is safe and adequate. I disagree with them on that point, so I re-sealed the compartment and added two exhaust fans.

Additionally, my comments have been targeted mostly at refrigerators. Furnaces and LP water heaters, by default, pretty much install properly to vent out the sidewall. Properly maintained and inspected, and if the fridge compartment is properly sealed, I believe LP appliances are safe when used as recommended (ie, don't heat with the stove, etc...)

[honda03842]

Paul,

Thank you for sharing. It's important that we understand weaknesses, even if they typically aren't fatal or maybe even dangerous.

It is certain that the installation is not the most efficient and probably the result of the original design or maybe the constraints of small trailers for the Casita's installation seems very similar.

Again thanks, information is important and the true benefit of this site.

Norm

[Carol H]

Thanks Paul for the clarification. I didn’t think you were Scamp bashing. I just worried that there may have been accidents I was not aware of, as I use my fridge on propane a fair bit. Here electrical outlets in provincial or national parks are a very rare thing to find. We have a slogan - Super Natural B.C. - apparently our government feels there is nothing natural about having electrical outlets in a campground.

My concern was with the suggestion that the fridge manufacture has safety concerns with Scamps installs which did not make sence to me. If they do have a safety concern it sure as heck cant be a serious one or they would have done something about it long ago. You are correct regarding most older scamps having ice boxes but I would suggest that your more likely to find a fridge in those manufactured since the late 80's or at least that has been my personal observation.

The great safety feature of propane is the smell! Last weekend while sitting around a fire at a vintage trailer rally, six of us all said the words “propane” at once and jumped up and where all about to go to our trailers to shut off pur tanks. Before we got more than a foot or two a fellow came out from the side of his trailer and while turning off his tank told us the problem was his. He was having problems lighting a 35 year old hot water tank. He was actually suprised we had smelled it so quickly as we where about 200' feet away and had large smelly campfire going.

Bottom line in this part of NA the vast majority of people have propane in their RV's and its used a lot with few accidents or at last not serious enough to be reported. Far more common to hear of guys burning down or blowing up parts of their home with an outdoor BQ :-)

[cpaharley2008]

Actually there are several other rv makers with dual side vents vs roof top venting. Airstream is one of them but they factory install a fan to help with the airflow.

[Terry G]

I think Nicholas asked an interesting question and I'm a bit surprised that it got taken so seriously. That's how it is to be a manufacturer--you makes your decisions and then you takes your chances if they were right. But just to add a bit more to the discussion, I recently bought a small condo in a Denver suburb. By the request of the local fire department, condo owners can no longer have gas or charcoal grills on their patios or balconies. Only electric grills are allowed. So yeah, maybe gas might be a problem in certain situations, but not necessarily in a trailer.

[Francesca Knowles]

1978 Trillium 4500

Factory installed Dometic 3-way fridge still in use, primarily on propane.

Factory installed dual sidewall fridge venting, upper and lower.

No known propane-related deaths, illnesses, or injuries associated with this trailer.


Francesca

[Sharon G]

Carol, it's also been my experience that I always smell propane long before the propane detector goes off.

I think that's one of its greatest safety features.

After a ferocious winter storm back in the 90's when I was without power for 5 days in an all-electric house, I have insisted on having propane cook stoves in my home, too. Fortunately I have lived in rural areas where it is possible.

I wouldn't be without propane in a camper.

Originally Posted by Carol H

Thanks Paul for the clarification. I didn’t think you were Scamp bashing. I just worried that there may have been accidents I was not aware of, as I use my fridge on propane a fair bit. Here electrical outlets in provincial or national parks are a very rare thing to find. We have a slogan - Super Natural B.C. - apparently our government feels there is nothing natural about having electrical outlets in a campground.

My concern was with the suggestion that the fridge manufacture has safety concerns with Scamps installs which did not make sence to me. If they do have a safety concern it sure as heck cant be a serious one or they would have done something about it long ago. You are correct regarding most older scamps having ice boxes but I would suggest that your more likely to find a fridge in those manufactured since the late 80's or at least that has been my personal observation.

The great safety feature of propane is the smell! Last weekend while sitting around a fire at a vintage trailer rally, six of us all said the words “propane” at once and jumped up and where all about to go to our trailers to shut off pur tanks. Before we got more than a foot or two a fellow came out from the side of his trailer and while turning off his tank told us the problem was his. He was having problems lighting a 35 year old hot water tank. He was actually suprised we had smelled it so quickly as we where about 200' feet away and had large smelly campfire going.

Bottom line in this part of NA the vast majority of people have propane in their RV's and its used a lot with few accidents or at last not serious enough to be reported. Far more common to hear of guys burning down or blowing up parts of their home with an outdoor BQ :-)

[Mike Magee]

Nicholas, your job is to build and sell trailers. Not to be the prospective owner's safety coach, conscience, or babysitter. What I'm trying to say is, I think you need to base your decision on what will help sell trailers and keep your company viable. Providing a component or system that might possibly cause harm to someone in some circumstance cannot be equated with, say, cheating or maiming someone purposely; so don't feel guilty about what might possibly go wrong. You have to buld units that people will want to buy. Scads of people want LP in their trailers. A few do not. I think the LP system probably should be standard (with optional deletion) or maybe optional install... but definitely offered. Refusing to install it, or even making potential customers feel uncomfortable about ordering it from you, would be an inadvisable decision businesswise.

Note too that people are not forced to use LP appliances once installed. So even if you installed LP standard with no optional deletion, folks are free to not use it if they so desire. But the opposite is not true... people cannot use a non-installed LP system!

By the way, were you going to be venting your fridge out the top or the side? In light of the recent comments on this subject, maybe a fan in the vent system would be in order if you're going out the side.

[Andrew GPSMapNut]

Originally Posted by cpaharley2008

Actually there are several other rv makers with dual side vents vs roof top venting. Airstream is one of them but they factory install a fan to help with the airflow.

What's more, I'm yet to see a pop-up (tent) trailer with roof top vent for the fridge.

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by Terry G

Only electric grills are allowed. So yeah, maybe gas might be a problem in certain situations, but not necessarily in a trailer.

There are IMHO a number of *big* differences between a condo and and trailer if something goes wrong while using propane. You will only damage your own property (the trailer) and not likely to damage other peoples property (as you probable would in a condo fire). No one is on the floor above you in a trailer and trapped there should you start a fire - so you are not likely to cause the death of someone else who isnt even staying with you. Probable the biggest differences is that in a trailer the propane tank is normally a fair distance from the applicance using its fuel. In the event of a stove top fire in most cases it is pretty easy to shut down the fuel supply before things get to far out of control. While most portable BQ's have their tanks right under them or beside them - making it hard if not impossible to shut off the tank if for some reason the BQ turns into a ball of fire.

Last but not least it is far more likely that someone will start up their BQ and throw on the meat and then head into the house to get something and forget about it for a little to long than there is for someone to leave a stove top in an RV unattended. I know someone who decided to do their turkey for thanksgiving on a BQ on their sundeck and left it - it resulted in the fire department being invited to dinner. Not only was the turkey a little over done but the deck caught on fire (caused by the burning turkey fat) and was threating to take the house with it. True story