What do you think of this - kinda wierd? - Page 3 - Fiberglass RV


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Old 05-10-2014, 02:56 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Bob Miller View Post
Quote: "There are certain things you can't really improve on and Scamp is one of them. It's a proven design that works."

Actually there are a number of little things that Scamp could have improved on years ago that just got left as-is.


The cassette type toilet is substantially more convenient to use than the Sea-Land toilet w/holding tank that has been around since Columbus came to the new world.

Says who? Thats were it all comes down to personal chooses. I personally never want to own a trailer with a cassette type toilet.

I personally think the Sea-Land is a very functional and more appealing alternative. Would suggest that the reason it hasn't change much in design since Columbus is simple because it works well and the design is a good one. Simple because a design is old doesn't mean it should be changed.

Reason for liking the use of a Sea-Land over the cassette in the Scamp is I don't want to take it on a walk each day to dump it as those I camp with who have cassette type toilets need to do each day, due to there small size. The Sea-land has the capacity to go without requiring dumping for many more days than the average cassette used in most small trailer designs. I have to go to the dump station to drain off my grey water tank anyway why would I want to have to do it every day?
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Old 05-10-2014, 05:04 PM   #30
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"It's kinda like the evolution of the Beetle, a lot was changed, but it was still a Beetle."


The VW Beetle was the number one seller in the world. Then VW decided a Change was needed and replaced it with the Rabbit. It almost doomed the company. They changed the Beetle and brought it back years later and it's still an epic failure. Sometimes change is not good.
All the FGRVs have things we can pick on. Slow draining tanks, water getting caught under the floor and rotting it, tire rub issues, water getting trapped in a double wall, rat fur, flat doors that change the look and aero dynamics, curved doors that don't hold their shape, but at the end of the day they are still one of the best choices in the RV world.

The beauty of FGRVs is that there are so many manufacturers with so many options and so many models. Find the company with the model you like and the options you like and buy it. Maybe someday we can sit down by a campfire and talk about you choice of FGRV. Happy camping!
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Old 05-10-2014, 05:45 PM   #31
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Actually it was only VW of America that was in $$$ trouble. Volkswagen AG has always been healthy and is one of the largest auto manufacturers in the world.

VW Beetles were made in other world markets for almost 30 years after they were pulled from the U.S. market, in large part because they no longer met U.S. safety and/or emissions standards and competition from Japanese vehicles doomed its' very dated design and technology.
Volkswagen Beetle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And a quick look at molded FGRV's made in Europe and Australia will make you think that the Scamp must have been Fred Flintstones first RV.

Yes, I agree, they are one of the best choices in the RV market. that's why I have owned about 10 of them, but leaving problems unsolved for 40+ years isn't a sign of updating or of modern day quality.
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Old 05-10-2014, 07:02 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Bob Miller View Post
And a quick look at molded FGRV's made in Europe and Australia will make you think that the Scamp must have been Fred Flintstones first RV.

.
Yup but have you ever done a calculation of the cost of those European trailers to US$'s
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Old 05-10-2014, 07:51 PM   #33
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I owed a 1995 Scamp 16ft deluxe. It was a tough little trailer we used it for a year and sold it to a friend. They did make an improvement moving the city water connection from the door side to the service side of the trailer.
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Old 05-11-2014, 09:54 AM   #34
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Yup but have you ever done a calculation of the cost of those European trailers to US$'s
No, but there is no reason that North American builders can't make some attempt to emulate better designs from non-competitors.

Remember, U.S. auto mfgs. insisted on trying to sell us Junque long after overseas mfgs. came along and turned the auto world upside down.

Right now there is a growing number of molded fiberglass RV builders starting up in China and it's only a matter of time before we see them here.... but I am sure some N.A. builders will wait and wait until competition forces their hand, but, as GM learned, by then it may be to late.

As I recall, there has already been one RV sent from China, one that failed because of it's source, rather than it's design.

And there is a Chinese Electric vehicle (Bus) builder already in business in Los Angeles that could shift production to Electric motorhomes.

Chinese Proverb: "Copying ones ideas is the most sincere form of flattery"
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Old 05-11-2014, 10:50 AM   #35
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Says who? Thats were it all comes down to personal chooses. I personally never want to own a trailer with a cassette type toilet.

I personally think the Sea-Land is a very functional and more appealing alternative. Would suggest that the reason it hasn't change much in design since Columbus is simple because it works well and the design is a good one. Simple because a design is old doesn't mean it should be changed.

Reason for liking the use of a Sea-Land over the cassette in the Scamp is I don't want to take it on a walk each day to dump it as those I camp with who have cassette type toilets need to do each day, due to there small size. The SeaLand has the capacity to go without requiring dumping for many more days than the average cassette used in most small trailer designs. I have to go to the dump station to drain off my grey water tank anyway why would I want to have to do it every day?
As mentioned, it's a matter of personal choice... But as we were speaking of 13' trailers in the first place, and few of that size have a gray water tank to empty anyway, having to find and use RV dumping stations has it's own drawbacks.

1. Not all campgrounds (in fact very few that I use) have dump stations, meaning one would have to find a dump somewhere, often have pay for the privilege of using it, and deal with the whole "Stinky-slinky" mess. (Not to mention the mess that last person left for you to share)

2. The Thetford cassette is 4.5 or 5.2(?) gallons, about 1/2 that of the SeaLand. So, if someone used the loo so much that they had to empty it it every day, they would still have to hitch up and move their trailer every 2-3 days to empty a full holding tank. (Again see #1).

3. A full SeaLand holding tank in a 13' Scamp will add close to 80 lbs to hitch weight if you can't empty it in the campground you are leaving. Not a good thing with a trailer that is already nortious for being hitch heavy.

4. The cassette toilet system, in one form or another, is pretty much the standard in small European and Aussie built FRGV's, both trailers and motorhomes.

But again, it's a matter of personal choice and SCAMP could at least offer that choice, one which I would guess would be very popular in the 13' versions.
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Old 05-11-2014, 12:44 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Bob Miller View Post
As mentioned, it's a matter of personal choice... But as we were speaking of 13' trailers in the first place, and few of that size have a gray water tank to empty anyway, having to find and use RV dumping stations has it's own drawbacks.

1. Not all campgrounds (in fact very few that I use) have dump stations, meaning one would have to find a dump somewhere, often have pay for the privilege of using it, and deal with the whole "Stinky-slinky" mess. (Not to mention the mess that last person left for you to share)

2. The Thetford cassette is 4.5 or 5.2(?) gallons, about 1/2 that of the SeaLand. So, if someone used the loo so much that they had to empty it it every day, they would still have to hitch up and move their trailer every 2-3 days to empty a full holding tank. (Again see #1).

3. A full SeaLand holding tank in a 13' Scamp will add close to 80 lbs to hitch weight if you can't empty it in the campground you are leaving. Not a good thing with a trailer that is already nortious for being hitch heavy.

4. The cassette toilet system, in one form or another, is pretty much the standard in small European and Aussie built FRGV's, both trailers and motorhomes.

But again, it's a matter of personal choice and SCAMP could at least offer that choice, one which I would guess would be very popular in the 13' versions.
Chooses would indeed be nice but there is a PRICE associated with chooses. Manufactures need to have the warehouse space to carry the items of choose. They need more staff to keep track of what each customer has ordered and more supervision during the build process to make sure each trailer is built to those chooses. The buyer is the party who will end up paying for those chooses.

Scamp is as we all agree building what is pretty simple solid little trailer and doing fine in maintaining a market base of customers that are not willing to pay for those extra chooses & in many cases not even wanting them. In fact the market base is so strong in that sector of the market Casita also seems to be able to make a living out of it, as have Trillium (or at least the Canadian version has).

The segment of the market that can afford to pay for a few more options but keeping with a trailer weight that is manageable by most mid sized SUV's and the simplicity of the trailer still there, head over to Escape, who have also managed to develop a very strong following on both sides of the border due to the chooses they offer.

Those who are wanting just a little bit more in the way of options and finish and are fine with the extra weight that goes with that have the option of purchasing a Bigfoot. A company that as you know did try and produce for a time some pretty high end products but as a result found themselves in big trouble when the US economy tanked, after many years of having a nice solid biz. Back in operations but back to their core biz of building a limit number of campers & trailers but not the bigger and higher end rigs.

Those who are looking for all the flash and latest gadgets in a Fiberglass trailer & the closest thing we have to a Euro style trailer in fiberglass, have the option of purchasing an Oliver. Who as you know have struggled in the past in maintaining a customer base strong enough to keep their doors open. Of note they have actually if I am not mistaken even stopped making the smaller version of their trailer which I am going to suggest is due to a lack of a demand for a small trailer with all the options & flash that goes with it.

One of the tried and true rules of any business is to know your market and stick to it... don't try and be all things to all people. Rarely works. As Scamp has managed to stay in biz for a long time now I would suggest they are meeting their market target just fine.

In regards to your points as to why a cassette toilet is better.

I have only paid to dump a tank once in many years of travel. If where I am camping doesnt have one on the way out, many of the public highway rest stops do. As do many small towns. Case in point - I pulled out of Silver Falls State park in Oregon last week early - to early in fact - the dump station didn't open until later in the day. Stopped at the first highway rest stop and dumped. Free.

As far as having to hitch up to dump a Sealand toilet goes - I have never had to do that even when dry camping for more than 3 days. Also don't know anyone else that does either. You can use a portable tote if you have to drain - one of equal if not more capacity. Store it under the trailer until you leave and dump it when you leave. Its actually been a rare occasion that I have had to use the portable tote for temp storage though. Rather not for the same reason I don't like using the cassette system. I am willing to bet that the majority of 13' Scamp owners do not go out dry camping for more than a few days regardless so having to dump the Sealand toilette into a tote may never be a requirement.

As far as maintenance issues go- have you seen the latest thread in regards to leaking Cassette toilets? going on right now. Seems a lot of people have had leaking issues so they are certainly not fool proof either. Funny enough I have only in six years had to do one repair on the old 21 year old Sealand in my trailer. Had to do it on the road - first rv shop I stopped out out in the middle of no where had the part needed - repair took less than 10 min. using the bare number of tools I carry on the road with me. Can not help but wonder if I had needed parts for a cassette toilet if the parts would have been so readably available.

Yup its all about chooses.
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Old 05-11-2014, 12:59 PM   #37
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Considering the near absolute mendacity of modern marketing and industry, it could be said that ONLY those "stuck in the past" can be trusted to deliver an honest product with veracity.
I have left strangers alone in my Scamp for hours to watch videos about Scamp, to explore at will and to contemplate whether a Scamp would be the right choice for them. This is after showing and explaining the function of every system. This is always done freely and without charge.
I would consider it unethical to charge for this service and then to collect from Scamp if a sale results from the showing.
In response to a few other points....
Having done the research on my own, I consider the use of the word "boomer" to be on par with the "n" word in its bias, motivation, and factual justification.

While some shower pumps have been placed under the lower center section of the front floor exposing them to the danger of being "knocked off", most have not. It is a simple job to remedy such a mistake by moving the pump into the protected cavity under the bathroom.

The American converter in my Scamp has been compact convenient and reliable. It took ten years of use even with several years of winter battery duty to wear out one cooling fan. A good record by any reasonable standard.

The skill to change a light bulb is all that is required to install the LED of your choice, so far I have not seen the need to do so or to pay someone else to install them.

Solderless connectors in general, and Scotchlocks in particular, have proven themselves reliable, especially in this application where nearly all connections are inside out of the weather and are only a small fraction of the cost of outsourcing automotive grade harnesses.

I was the proud owner of one of those "Junque" American made cars(Ford Pinto) which suffered being flipped end for end and rolled in an accident.
I drove it to work the next day! (and for the next 5 years).
The very next week a friend brought me a brand new SR5 Corolla-skate which suffered a bump from the rear at a stop sign without visible damage and dismissed. His driver's seat would not adjust... After examination it was discovered that the car was actually damaged beyond repair, with the floorpan shifted so severely that alignment was no longer possible for the chassis.
While my "auto world" was literally turned upside-down, the "inferior" Pinto continued to be serviceable with an unsurpassed reliability record, and still one of the ten all time best cars ever built.
With Scamp as well as Scion there is a difference between marketing and substance. Unfortunately... many times the former has more influence over the buyer than the latter.
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Old 05-11-2014, 01:35 PM   #38
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Per Post #36 It sounds like the leaky cassette toilet problems are limited to one particular brand and, as far as I have read, it hasn't been determined if it is the installation or the loo itself causing the leaks.

With the thousands of tent trailers using cassette toilets one would think that there would be more than only a few mentions of it on the pop-up trailer site I am also on.

I have the equivalent of a SeaLand loo in my Hunter and, at least in this part of the world, dump stations have all but disappeared from rest stops. So much so that we minimize using it unless we know there is a dump station available. Same thing applied when I was pulling a 13' Scamp. On the other hand, this was never an issue with the BigFoot, as it had a porta-potty, and there was always a dump station for that available, even at the rest stops.

And per post #38

My point is that SCAMP could have better placed the shower drain pump. That's not something a new owner should have to do, even if it is an easy task.

I have personally worked on at least 4 "American" brand converters in RV's, including my own Scamp. All four had smoked their converter boards. On three I replaced the converter section with an externally mounted PD-9200 series converter and on my own I installed a PD-4045 power chassis. But I did repurpose the left over American power box in a tent trailer, alone with a battery charger. It made a great fuse panel and circuit breaker mount.

I can't say that anyone in the automotive world I have ever spoken to would place the Pinto in the top ten of best cars ever built. We have owned both a coupe and a station wagon, both provided transportation, but with with nowhere near the economy and reliability of Toyotas built in the latter years of Pinto production. You still see a lot of 1975-1980 Toyotas on the road, but I can't remember the last Pinto I saw in traffic. BTW: Here is a list that the Pinto did make: 1971 Ford Pinto - The 50 Worst Cars of All Time - TIME
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Old 05-11-2014, 04:34 PM   #39
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Per Post #36 It sounds like the leaky cassette toilet problems are limited to one particular brand and, as far as I have read, it hasn't been determined if it is the installation or the loo itself causing the leaks.

With the thousands of tent trailers using cassette toilets one would think that there would be more than only a few mentions of it on the pop-up trailer site I am also on.

I have the equivalent of a SeaLand loo in my Hunter and, at least in this part of the world, dump stations have all but disappeared from rest stops. So much so that we minimize using it unless we know there is a dump station available. Same thing applied when I was pulling a 13' Scamp. On the other hand, this was never an issue with the BigFoot, as it had a porta-potty, and there was always a dump station for that available, even at the rest stops.

And per post #38

My point is that SCAMP could have better placed the shower drain pump. That's not something a new owner should have to do, even if it is an easy task.

I have personally worked on at least 4 "American" brand converters in RV's, including my own Scamp. All four had smoked their converter boards. On three I replaced the converter section with an externally mounted PD-9200 series converter and on my own I installed a PD-4045 power chassis. But I did repurpose the left over American power box in a tent trailer, alone with a battery charger. It made a great fuse panel and circuit breaker mount.

I can't say that anyone in the automotive world I have ever spoken to would place the Pinto in the top ten of best cars ever built. We have owned both a coupe and a station wagon, both provided transportation, but with with nowhere near the economy and reliability of Toyotas built in the latter years of Pinto production. You still see a lot of 1975-1980 Toyotas on the road, but I can't remember the last Pinto I saw in traffic. BTW: Here is a list that the Pinto did make: 1971 Ford Pinto - The 50 Worst Cars of All Time - TIME
You just don't get around much I guess... For one... I placed it on the list,and
I am certainly as qualified as any "Automotive Journalist"!

For another , the Pinto has more wins in amateur auto racing than any other American Car in history(including SCCA).
I have owned several of them and have never seen any car which would match the reliability record of the worst of the lot. Try and follow my Pinto on a road course.
The Pinto was placed on your cited list on the basis of a lie (by their own admission, read the article) which just goes to my earlier point....
"...there is a difference between marketing and substance. Unfortunately... many times the former has more influence over the buyer than the latter.)

The American converter is reliable when allowed to breath, I've installed them for years now with no failures. The vast majority of the ones I've had to work on for others were in 16 side dinette applications where the placement caused them to overheat. The addition of an extra vent panel under the bench solves the problem.
Also as I said before most shower pumps are factory mounted in the protected cavity under the bathroom.
Would you really live in an unmodified house, drive an unmodified car, or tow an unmodified trailer? I wouldn't... no couldn't.
The trick is to buy the ones worth personalizing.
Heck... I have five Trek bikes, each is modified for improved personalized performance... I even bought the best shoes I could find and modified them for fit and comfort.
Here in the states,you don't see many 75-80 anythings in traffic, in fact stuff half that age is even getting hard to find at the salvage yard.
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Old 05-11-2014, 05:30 PM   #40
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There is certainly a good market for Scamps. Last weekend, as we got the Scamp ready for our first trip of the year, a woman pulled into the driveway and asked to look at it. We gave her the complete tour and she asked if she could leave her number in case we ever decide to sell. When we got to the campground, we were asked by our neighbors for a tour. Fiberglass rv's are pretty rare out this way so we always cause a bit of a stir when we pull in someplace.
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Old 05-11-2014, 06:45 PM   #41
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You just don't get around much I guess...
Yep, I guess not. I only drove in SCCA racing and Auto crossing for about 10 years, including one year with full factory sponsorship driving a Volvo 1800S in SCCA events.

I would guess that as long as the Pinto had the German designed and built 2.0 engine it might do a lot better than the 1600 boat anchor that Ford made in the U.S. But success in amateur stock car racing doesn't light my interest.

But, that all behind us, what you are saying is that when someone buys a new trailer that they should expect to have to make modifications to correct factory oversights like pump locations, overheated converters, tire rubbing etc. and that they should be happy with the same features that were being offered 40 years ago.

You should really look at the European FGRV's. Their Fit, Finish and Features make most of ours look like a Model-A Ford.

BTW: We see 70's Toyota's on the road every day here in CA. Two years ago I sold a 1978 Toyota Sunrader molded fiberglass motorhome that I refurbished. It was promptly driven to Maine and back without any problems and is still being used on almost a daily basis. Passed smog as slick as can be at 110,000 miles and still got 20 MPG with a cab over coach on it's back.
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Old 05-11-2014, 08:48 PM   #42
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But, that all behind us, what you are saying is that when someone buys a new trailer that they should expect to have to make modifications to correct factory oversights like pump locations, overheated converters, tire rubbing etc. and that they should be happy with the same features that were being offered 40 years ago.

.
Tire rubbing on a Scamp? Hummm thats a new one... think your getting your trailer brands mixed up Bob

Here is the thing I have a 21 year old Scamp, soon to be 22 years old. Never have lost & or damaged the shower pump. I can see how it could happen but I can also see how ripping off the tanks and many other items off the bottom of many brands of trailers could happen if care is not taken. Your correct though that on a Scamp the shower pump will indeed be the first item to be hit if not careful.

Secondly I still have the American converter in mine as well, never had a problem with it, even though its been used well over a 100 Plus nights a year for the past six years.
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