Year Scamp 13 weight was 1,000 pounds? - Page 3 - Fiberglass RV


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Old 04-29-2015, 11:49 AM   #29
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Name: RogerDat
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Seeing Carol's comparison to chainsaws being sold reminded me of the fellow that quite his job and sold his house in the city to move to a working farm in rural America. Now this was a long time ago when the local hardware stores would run accounts for the farmers in the area.

One day the fellow comes in to get some dynamite at the local hardware and feed store, shop keeper asks what is the dynamite for and the fellow says he has some boulders and a stump to remove. The shop owner gets him an appropriate amount and the fellow asks a few questions about using it, then asks if the dynamite can just go on his account. The shop owner thinks for a minute and asks "you ever used dynamite before?" The fellow says "nope, but I'll be careful." shop owner says "me too, that will be cash."

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Old 04-29-2015, 12:25 PM   #30
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Good one! Thanks for the giggle!

But sadly I know of a situation in a little town I lived in where the same situation happened and the guy buying said he was going to use the dynamite to help clear out the tree stumps to help build a new church in town ... he instead used it to build the bombs that took down the Air India flight, as well as another that blow up baggage handlers at an airport. I personally know both parties and was as shock as everyone who know them that this could have happened and for the party who gave them the dynamite it was a forever life changing event.

Which brings me back to my original point - why and how can we expect the person selling the product to take on the responsibility of making sure the end user will not do something totally stupid with it.

As the old saying goes you can not fix stupid.
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Old 04-29-2015, 12:53 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Steve in NY View Post
True the plumbing isn't a huge deal, but getting rid of that bathroom, carpet, etc. is. On the plumbing, all those hose clamp gave me the willys. As for tongue weight, its pretty easy to change your packing plan to get tongue weight. These trailers are like a kids teeter totter. A couple of lawn chairs and a cooler taken from the back and moved tot he front can make a big difference. As for towing weight, unless you live on a flat plain, it does matter. I can really feel my Honda Pilot working pulling my 4000 pound boat, it hardly labors pulling the scamp. Also, braking distances will be reduced and the axle will be happier with less weight.

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We have a Scamp 16 like Carol. We don't move a single thing when packing for a trip to adjust the tongue weight. Also we don't carry loose items like coolers or boxes of cords to 'balance' the trailer.

Everything in our trailer has a place, a place where stuff is not going to move around, a drawer, a shelf, always some king of enclosure. We are very consistent in our packing, light items near the ends, heavy items low and over or near the axle.

We do no trailer balancing to adjust the tongue weight. Our tongue weight has varied from 190-210 over the year's we've towed. Our trailer including the tongue weighs 2500-2600 pounds. We weigh our tongue at least once a year usually before we hit the road in the fall.

We like many have eliminated some of the heavier components, like the table and cabinet doors, replacing it with lighter material. Our first reason was we just didn't like the stock doors our second was weight. As for the table we wanted something that made the dinette more convenient to use.

Even if the trailer weighed near zero, the load on the tow vehicle would still be significant, don't forget it's air resistance that eats your mileage, If you don't believe it consider the effect of a 10 mile per hour head wind.

I would like dead accurate numbers on trailer weight from the factory, however whether it weigh 1200 pounds or 1500 pounds has little effect on the tow load. Regardless of what they tell you what really counts is the actual weight on the tires and the weight on the tongue and they really only count when you measure a loaded trailer.
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Old 04-29-2015, 01:34 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by honda03842 View Post
We have a Scamp 16 like Carol. We don't move a single thing when packing for a trip to adjust the tongue weight. Also we don't carry loose items like coolers or boxes of cords to 'balance' the trailer.

<cut>

We do no trailer balancing to adjust the tongue weight. Our tongue weight has varied from 190-210 over the year's we've towed. Our trailer including the tongue weighs 2500-2600 pounds. We weigh our tongue at least once a year usually before we hit the road in the fall.


With all due respect Norm and for the benefit of someone here who may be new to towing & this forum you may want to also mentioned as you have in past posted that you take the roads less traveled and keep your speed down rather than take the freeways as I often do.

In my personal experience with the same trailer same total weights as yours (& yup it is often weighed) and also taking great care to stow it correctly and having made a number of trips with the tongue weight at least than 10% as you do that speed and light tongue weight don't in my experience make for a solid tow. Far better (less stressful) towing experience at least for me, when the tongue is at 10% or higher under all driving conditions.
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Old 04-29-2015, 06:13 PM   #33
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The RV industry is over-filled with travel trailers possessing way too much hitch weight for practical purposes. By the time LP, battery, water and gear are added to the trailer, hitch weights can easily exeed 15% of trailer weight. This makes it very difficult to find any lightweight trailers that can be towed with 3500/350 rated vehicles; a 2500 lb or 3000 lb trailer can have a loaded hitch of 400-500 lbs.

I think Scamp's way of doing things is just fine. Hitch weight on the 16' is a decent positive number, yet there's room to add normal stuff and still have the hitch wind up at 10-11% of total weight... making them towable by many smaller vehicles that can't (from a practical standpoint) tow much else.
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Old 04-29-2015, 06:51 PM   #34
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With all due respect Norm and for the benefit of someone here who may be new to towing & this forum you may want to also mentioned as you have in past posted that you take the roads less traveled and keep your speed down rather than take the freeways as I often do.

In my personal experience with the same trailer same total weights as yours (& yup it is often weighed) and also taking great care to stow it correctly and having made a number of trips with the tongue weight at least than 10% as you do that speed and light tongue weight don't in my experience make for a solid tow. Far better (less stressful) towing experience at least for me, when the tongue is at 10% or higher under all driving conditions.
I do travel with relatively light hitch weights and unfortunately I virtually have to drive Interstates from NJ to NH. I absolutely hate the congestion in the Northeast and actually do sometimes happily drive the much less congested western Interstates. In the northeast I drive in about 62 mph, generally staying the right. I have never had a problem with sway. I do drive the roads less traveled whenever we can, if Interstates were the only route I would not have traveled for 14 years. We are not people driving between destinations as fast as we can.

We enjoy the travel not just the destination. We just returned from Florida, 1500 miles at a fast pace for us, 26 days. Of that trip about 500 miles was Interstate.

My point is not about my tongue weight but rather that I don't go around balancing my weight. I would never have anything loose that could slide in my trailer, not coolers or anything.

We consciously prepare our tow vehicle and trailer for travel, we have a working method and have never changed it. We do the following.. keep the ball as close to the axle as possible, raise the pressure in the tow vehicle tires, lock the tow bar in the receiver so it can't move (wiggle), run trailer tires at high pressure, places heavy items near or over the trailer axle, keep heavy items low, keep light items at the ends of the trailer, we carry no free items in the trailer, we pack the trailer the same for every trip.

In the tow vehicle we try to keep heavy items between the tow vehicle's axles, like the case of water we always carry.

One other thing, we have no heavy weights on our roof, like an air conditioner.

We do have an anti-sway bar and now always tow with it. When we first had the Scamp 16 we did not have one and never had an issue with sway towing 1000's of miles. We added it because it had been suggested it would be nice to have in an emergency.

Why do we have a solid tow and another does not, I have no idea why. I do know what we do.
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Old 04-29-2015, 10:01 PM   #35
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Mike have you ever owned a Scamp?

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Originally Posted by Mike Magee View Post
I think Scamp's way of doing things is just fine. Hitch weight on the 16' is a decent positive number, yet there's room to add normal stuff and still have the hitch wind up at 10-11% of total weight... making them towable by many smaller vehicles that can't (from a practical standpoint) tow much else.
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Old 04-30-2015, 02:48 AM   #36
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Just curious about who some here would blame for a situation that took place involving a very popular trailer brand here and a new trailer owner.

The trailer if i am not mistaken is listed on the Real World Weights as weighed on arrival at the Bandon Fiberglass meet it attended not long before it took a big wag and ended up off the road and on its side. Brand new trailer written off by the insurance company. Suspect more than a few folks here if they were to look over the list of weights will be able to guess which trailers on the list have the highest probability of being the trailer in question based on the loaded axle vs tongue weight.

All I can tell you is at the time I saw the trailer - which was at the meet it was loaded up with a number of bikes on the rear. If it was weighed at arrival at the trailer meet as I and some others believe it was (I recall commenting at the time that I was really surprised the tongue weight was the same as my smaller trailer), then the owner received after weighing a nice clearly written up slip from Frederick that showed the weights on the axle and the weight of the tongue and total weight. So the owner would have been aware at that point in time of the actual weight of the trailer loaded up. The rest of the story as to how it was stowed inside at the time of the actual accident is all hearsay but the story goes that at the time of the accident it had some water in the rear water tanks (full? particle? unknown) and lots of stuff stowed in under the large storage area under the bed but little to nothing of any weight significance stored in the hatches ahead of the axle.

If it was in fact loaded up as such then the question is who is to blame? the owner for not knowing they needed to make sure the trailer was balanced correctly or the trailer manufacture for having built a trailer with large storage hatches and water tanks behind the axle of the trailer?

How many other trailer manufactures are there that also have their water tanks and lots of storage space behind the axle and a hitch receiver on the rear of the trailer? Should they all be held responsible for any accident that may result from what the end user decides to put in those spaces or carry with the rear hitch receiver? Where do you draw the line in regards to manufactures responsibility vs end users responsibility?
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Old 04-30-2015, 06:00 AM   #37
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Carol, good post but I can't see the manufacturer being in any way the cause of an owners stupidity for loading or add ons. I've always wondered about newbies buying a TT and hitting the road with no towing experience, even with a utility trailer. It's good that some ask our opinions but there is nothing better than some real world experience with something small first. Seen some really oddball tows in the last 50 years and wondered how they ever got home without folding it all up. Angels watching over them maybe?
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Old 04-30-2015, 07:28 AM   #38
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It is unfortunate that the manufacturers don't make a small investment in "How To" books for their trailers. To me this could be a differentiator in the market place. For those of you have looked at Kimberley Caravans under General Chat, you'll note that they have 15 short books that provide information that is helpful to the buyer and owner. To my knowledge not a single NA manufacturer provides a single book.
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Old 04-30-2015, 07:33 AM   #39
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Geesh... This started out as a comment about a manufacturer possibly selling and delivering a new trailer that was light on the tongue, and had nothing whatsoever to do with what an owner might do with that trailer.


But it does raise the point about what the owners manuals for new trailers may have to say about weight and balance. I didn't see anything like that with either the SCAMP or the Lil' Bigfoot I owned so I don't know if they even existed.

The owners manual for a new 1973 Hunter Compact Jr titled "Important Information for the Safe and Enjoyable Operation of your Compact Jr. Recreation Vehicle" was a little over 1 page long and made no mention at all about weight or balance. I hope that current FGRV manuals are somewhat more informative.


It was unfortunate that the owner of the unnamed trailer mentioned above didn't get (or at least follow?) better indoctrination on the safe operation of their trailer. But why is it necessary to play guessing games about the facts of the trailer, i.e. weights, make and size?


It takes a Village.....
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Old 04-30-2015, 07:45 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by honda03842 View Post
It is unfortunate that the manufacturers don't make a small investment in "How To" books for their trailers. To me this could be a differentiator in the market place. For those of you have looked at Kimberley Caravans under General Chat, you'll note that they have 15 short books that provide information that is helpful to the buyer and owner. To my knowledge not a single NA manufacturer provides a single book.
Thank You Norm, I think that you answered a question I posed while you were posting this.....

Those that have seen a vehicle owners manual from the 60's might remember that they were in the range of 24 or so pages., Today 300 pages isn't uncommon and they usually have pages of info on towing safety, at least as far as the TV is concerned.

What Say, Builders ?????
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Old 04-30-2015, 12:19 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Miller View Post
Geesh... This started out as a comment about a manufacturer possibly selling and delivering a new trailer that was light on the tongue, and had nothing whatsoever to do with what an owner might do with that trailer.


But it does raise the point about what the owners manuals for new trailers may have to say about weight and balance. I didn't see anything like that with either the SCAMP or the Lil' Bigfoot I owned so I don't know if they even existed.

The owners manual for a new 1973 Hunter Compact Jr titled "Important Information for the Safe and Enjoyable Operation of your Compact Jr. Recreation Vehicle" was a little over 1 page long and made no mention at all about weight or balance. I hope that current FGRV manuals are somewhat more informative.


It was unfortunate that the owner of the unnamed trailer mentioned above didn't get (or at least follow?) better indoctrination on the safe operation of their trailer. But why is it necessary to play guessing games about the facts of the trailer, i.e. weights, make and size?


It takes a Village.....

While I agree that in years gone by Scamp's manuals (as well as many other manufactures) were lacking - not just in regards to stowing the trailer but in the operation of various items. The original manual which came with my 92 trailer for example is only a few pages and they simple included the manufactures manuals for various items such as fridge, stove and furnace etc. Things have changed, the current Scamp manual has many more pages and they have also gone to the web with instructions videos found on their website as well as on Youtube - they give a pretty good explanation along with diagrams as to how/where items should be stowed as well as explaining the impact of adding water to tanks etc.

Link to Scamps website and one of their training videos called Before You Tow - at 3:43 on the video they do address the issue of loading of the trailer and the importance of it.

The direct Youtube link to the Scamp Trailer Before You Tow Video.

Additionally there is some info that can be found right of Scamps main website pages in regards to make sure the trailer is loaded correctly - under the section titled Checks to make before and during a trip

In addition to the above Scamp also on their website has links to towing tips from outside sources such as Etrailer and others.

All I will say in regards to the trailer previously mentioned that did a big wag - the company that built the trailer is well known by members here for doing a lengthly new owners orientation. They also have online training videos. They are know for making sure the tug and trailer connection is set up correctly at pick up and will if necessary install items such as WDH etc to help out with that. Their owners manual also has a section in it in regards to properly stowing the trailer and address proper weight distribution and the importance of correct loading of weight not only in the trailer but the tug as well.

Personally I am not sure one could ask for or expect a whole lot more from either company in regards to educating their buyers.

As to your question as to why not pin point the trailer out right? First off I am not a lawyer and I don't play one of TV. As such I was not privy to the facts in regards to how the trailer was in fact loaded at the time of the accident. Only the lawyers representing the owner of it and the manufacture know that. As I said the state of the trailer at the time of the incident is simple hearsay and I used the incident for a theoretical question and not to point fingers at any particular trailer owner or manufacture.

More importantly my post was simple to get a response to what the general feeling is here as to where the trailer manufactures responsibility starts and ends in regards to safe towing practises. Seems to me we have a few folks who are putting far more weight of responsibility onto the manufacture than the end user than I personally would.

Also my post was to make folks aware that serious accidents do take place even with our smallish fiberglass trailers. I believe far more frequently than some may think but sadly its my personal observation over my years here that few owners of said trailers come back here and tell us about the incident and the facts as to the hows and whys. Leave it to you to decide why that may be.

I would suggest that anyone who looks over the Real World Weights and can not take a good guess as to what trailers where at high risk of such an incident may need to take a bit more time to educate themselves on the most basic of safe towing practices before they hit the road with a new to them trailer.
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Old 04-30-2015, 12:34 PM   #42
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Interesting thread. I am a boater and my boating insurance company (BoatUS) publishes guides that they send (just got one a week ago) on towing, readying your boat, etc. They are the ones that will be on the hook for a claim if you are uninformed so they inform you. I am sure it saves them a ton of money in claims by making end users proactive.

What surprises me is how someone would just hook up a trailer and pull it without looking into the ramifications first.

As for the manufactures, I'd guess a cooler full of drinks moved from the front of your trailer to the back could affect the tongue weight a tremendous amount. I think there is a certain expectation that these kinds of trailers get loaded, and that most people wouldn't be pulling an empty one. It strikes me its more important to warn than to build tongue weight in.
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