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Old 04-30-2015, 11:19 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Bob Miller View Post
Geesh... This started out as a comment about a manufacturer possibly selling and delivering a new trailer that was light on the tongue, and had nothing whatsoever to do with what an owner might do with that trailer.


But it does raise the point about what the owners manuals for new trailers may have to say about weight and balance. I didn't see anything like that with either the SCAMP or the Lil' Bigfoot I owned so I don't know if they even existed.

The owners manual for a new 1973 Hunter Compact Jr titled "Important Information for the Safe and Enjoyable Operation of your Compact Jr. Recreation Vehicle" was a little over 1 page long and made no mention at all about weight or balance. I hope that current FGRV manuals are somewhat more informative.


It was unfortunate that the owner of the unnamed trailer mentioned above didn't get (or at least follow?) better indoctrination on the safe operation of their trailer. But why is it necessary to play guessing games about the facts of the trailer, i.e. weights, make and size?


It takes a Village.....

While I agree that in years gone by Scamp's manuals (as well as many other manufactures) were lacking - not just in regards to stowing the trailer but in the operation of various items. The original manual which came with my 92 trailer for example is only a few pages and they simple included the manufactures manuals for various items such as fridge, stove and furnace etc. Things have changed, the current Scamp manual has many more pages and they have also gone to the web with instructions videos found on their website as well as on Youtube - they give a pretty good explanation along with diagrams as to how/where items should be stowed as well as explaining the impact of adding water to tanks etc.

Link to Scamps website and one of their training videos called Before You Tow - at 3:43 on the video they do address the issue of loading of the trailer and the importance of it.

The direct .

Additionally there is some info that can be found right of Scamps main website pages in regards to make sure the trailer is loaded correctly - under the section titled Checks to make before and during a trip

In addition to the above Scamp also on their website has links to towing tips from outside sources such as Etrailer and others.

All I will say in regards to the trailer previously mentioned that did a big wag - the company that built the trailer is well known by members here for doing a lengthly new owners orientation. They also have online training videos. They are know for making sure the tug and trailer connection is set up correctly at pick up and will if necessary install items such as WDH etc to help out with that. Their owners manual also has a section in it in regards to properly stowing the trailer and address proper weight distribution and the importance of correct loading of weight not only in the trailer but the tug as well.

Personally I am not sure one could ask for or expect a whole lot more from either company in regards to educating their buyers.

As to your question as to why not pin point the trailer out right? First off I am not a lawyer and I don't play one of TV. As such I was not privy to the facts in regards to how the trailer was in fact loaded at the time of the accident. Only the lawyers representing the owner of it and the manufacture know that. As I said the state of the trailer at the time of the incident is simple hearsay and I used the incident for a theoretical question and not to point fingers at any particular trailer owner or manufacture.

More importantly my post was simple to get a response to what the general feeling is here as to where the trailer manufactures responsibility starts and ends in regards to safe towing practises. Seems to me we have a few folks who are putting far more weight of responsibility onto the manufacture than the end user than I personally would.

Also my post was to make folks aware that serious accidents do take place even with our smallish fiberglass trailers. I believe far more frequently than some may think but sadly its my personal observation over my years here that few owners of said trailers come back here and tell us about the incident and the facts as to the hows and whys. Leave it to you to decide why that may be.

I would suggest that anyone who looks over the Real World Weights and can not take a good guess as to what trailers where at high risk of such an incident may need to take a bit more time to educate themselves on the most basic of safe towing practices before they hit the road with a new to them trailer.
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Old 04-30-2015, 11:34 AM   #42
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Interesting thread. I am a boater and my boating insurance company (BoatUS) publishes guides that they send (just got one a week ago) on towing, readying your boat, etc. They are the ones that will be on the hook for a claim if you are uninformed so they inform you. I am sure it saves them a ton of money in claims by making end users proactive.

What surprises me is how someone would just hook up a trailer and pull it without looking into the ramifications first.

As for the manufactures, I'd guess a cooler full of drinks moved from the front of your trailer to the back could affect the tongue weight a tremendous amount. I think there is a certain expectation that these kinds of trailers get loaded, and that most people wouldn't be pulling an empty one. It strikes me its more important to warn than to build tongue weight in.
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Old 04-30-2015, 12:50 PM   #43
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So Carol, you made me look…

in the data from http://www.fiberglassrv.com/forums/f...rld-43010.html I noticed a number of trailers from several manufacturers that appeared to be underweight on the tongue (at least by the conventional 10% standard). What I did find interesting is that the ones that appeared to be the most underweight relative to total weight were all double axle trailers. 2 of the 4 listed Fiberstreams and 3 of the 7 listed Escape 19s appeared to be significantly underweight on the tongue.

I would love to hear what folks have to say about that observation. Conventional wisdom, as I have heard it, is that double axle trailers are inherently more stable. Does that, in turn, invite careless loading, or is there something else going on here?
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Old 04-30-2015, 01:27 PM   #44
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When I purchased my Escape 19' in 2013, the batteries were installed in a vented box within the front passenger side dinette bench seat of the trailer. Since then, in order to get a more favorable distribution of weight within the trailer, Escape have moved the batteries onto the front of the trailer, either in the front storage box or on the frame. Escape will no longer install the batteries inside the trailer. Seems to me that Escape is taking an active role in helping to ensure that their trailers have an appropriate weight distribution direct from the factory.
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Old 04-30-2015, 01:51 PM   #45
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Safety Guides and Videos

"It is unfortunate that the manufacturers don't make a small investment in "How To" books for their trailers. To me this could be a differentiator in the market place. For those of you have looked at Kimberley Caravans under General Chat, you'll note that they have 15 short books that provide information that is helpful to the buyer and owner. To my knowledge not a single NA manufacturer provides a single book."

Yes, manufacturers should get more involved in safety issues--it's in their best interest too. It would not take much of an investment.

Safety education is a problem of Human Nature being involved--that is, just want to get going , never mind a lot of reading. If the manufacturers had a few different choices--simple but direct safety brochures with diagrams & pictures, or even kind of a basic "quick start guide" (like the one that comes with a camera, cellphone or printer along with the 144 page guide that almost no one ever reads) , and some videos. All those things help. The videos may be the best way, but not the only way, needed to get the messages across to the impatient public.

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Old 04-30-2015, 02:50 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Jon in AZ View Post
So Carol, you made me look…

2 of the 4 listed Fiberstreams and 3 of the 7 listed Escape 19s appeared to be significantly underweight on the tongue.

I would love to hear what folks have to say about that observation. Conventional wisdom, as I have heard it, is that double axle trailers are inherently more stable. Does that, in turn, invite careless loading, or is there something else going on here?
Same observation made and whats more startling regarding the differences in weights is there is a 210 lb tongue weight difference on the same brand/size/age trailer with the lightest tongue weight vs the one with the most weight on the tongue. But the difference in axle weight is the opposite - the trailer with the lightest axle weight is also the heaviest on the tongue. Appears to me to be two extreamly different approaches to loading the same trailer. Perhaps a better question may be what was the guy with the same trailer that is loaded up more conventionally weight wise doing differently from the others?

I also know Frederick has not done any weigh ins at the Bandon meet for the last few years and I may be mistaken but I don't think he has done a weigh in since the change in location of the batteries took place, so I am not sure that can be used as an explanation for the big swing in tongue weights - simply moving the batteries forward about 4' or so isn't going to account for a 200lb + weight difference on the tongue regardless.

The Fiberstreams I have no idea as to historically what one could have or should expected them to weigh originally coming out of the factory. Frederick owns at least one of the ones listed maybe even be that his trailer appears more than once on the list. Perhaps he can shed some light as to why some appears to have light tongue weights based on conventional towing wisdom.
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Old 04-30-2015, 03:31 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Carol H View Post
Same observation made and whats more startling regarding the differences in weights is there is a 210 lb tongue weight difference on the same brand/size/age trailer with the lightest tongue weight vs the one with the most weight on the tongue. But the difference in axle weight is the opposite - the trailer with the lightest axle weight is also the heaviest on the tongue. Appears to me to be two extreamly different approaches to loading the same trailer. Perhaps a better question may be what was the guy with the same trailer that is loaded up more conventionally weight wise doing differently from the others?

I also know Frederick has not done any weigh ins at the Bandon meet for the last few years and I may be mistaken but I don't think he has done a weigh in since the change in location of the batteries took place, so I am not sure that can be used as an explanation for the big swing in tongue weights - simply moving the batteries forward about 4' or so isn't going to account for a 200lb + weight difference on the tongue regardless.

The Fiberstreams I have no idea as to historically what one could have or should expected them to weigh originally coming out of the factory. Frederick owns at least one of the ones listed maybe even be that his trailer appears more than once on the list. Perhaps he can shed some light as to why some appears to have light tongue weights based on conventional towing wisdom.
Just a reminder - With Frederick's blessing, I've been keeping an Excel Spreadsheet version of "Trailer Weights in the Real World" that has been updated many times by owners weighing their own trailers. There are currently 137 entries. A filter/sort function has been added by
Steve LaBoard that lets you look at specific brands, lengths, etc.

The file can be found here.
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Old 04-30-2015, 04:12 PM   #48
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Jon, I really appreciate the work you, Frederick, and Steve have done to make that data available, up-to-date, and well-organized. I use the spreadsheet often, and refer many inquiries there. Sure wish there were a one-stop quick link...
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Old 04-30-2015, 06:17 PM   #49
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I did some more playing with Jon V's spreadsheet (had it calculate the percents) and noticed that quite a few of the Hunters were also very light on the tongue, including one that was below 4%. Seems like that's another model for which loading is critical. Ironically, all of the Scamp 13s, which started this whole conversation, were solidly in the 10-15% window.

Okay, I confess... I'm a data junkie!
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Old 04-30-2015, 10:01 PM   #50
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"It is unfortunate that the manufacturers don't make a small investment in "How To" books for their trailers. To me this could be a differentiator in the market place.

Mark
Go to the Scamp website and check out the many "How To" videos they have on every system on a Scamp as well as hook-up, towing and set-up.
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Old 05-01-2015, 06:26 AM   #51
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To read a book you pick it up and read it.

To view a video you have to have a device to view it on and have a connection. You have nothing if either one of the above is not available.


Not to mention that it may be impossible for someone to be standing in front of the trailer, appliance etc. while viewing said videos.


Videos can be very helpful as a supplement to printed material, but be it 2015 or not, there is still a place in the world for hard copy.



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Old 05-01-2015, 08:32 AM   #52
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To read a book you pick it up and read it.

To view a video you have to have a device to view it on and have a connection. You have nothing if either one of the above is not available.


Not to mention that it may be impossible for someone to be standing in front of the trailer, appliance etc. while viewing said videos.


Videos can be very helpful as a supplement to printed material, but be it 2015 or not, there is still a place in the world for hard copy.
Add up all the hard copies that came with my trailer and you have to keep your back straight to lift them!
There's the brochures and the owner's manual, plus a manual for every device on board replete with pictures How-Tos and parts lists.

If that ain't enough there's the manufacturer's website , the website of every contributing manufacturer, and of course MFROG (and others).
There are printers if hard copies are needed.

If all that fails... there is always a trip to a fiberglass rally where hands-on help and training is available for the asking.
Don't forget Smart phones and with DATA no less.

Heck , new cars are coming with built-in WIFI and a big screen dash. looking out the windshield or reading the owner's manual just isn't entertaining enough anymore!
It seems TMI is getting to be the real problem!
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Old 05-01-2015, 09:32 AM   #53
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Hmmmmm... I've yet to see a manual for a Scamp, but I am sure that they exist somewhere.


But I think that you make my point, most of your suggestions require that the buyer/owner do something that the manufacturer should have done, but didn't do.


And I tried printing out one of those videos, didn't work out so well...



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Old 05-01-2015, 09:48 AM   #54
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My Scamp came with a written manual AND DVD's loaded with videos to back it up. Plus, they packaged all the manuals with the awning, fridge, A/C etc. Well, everything but the Dexter Axle which to me was the most critical!! Anyway, they didnt weigh me down.... .

Hey guys...NOTHING will ever replace good common sense which means asking questions, looking at manuals, videos..... well you know what I mean.

But honestly, with my 5 personal years of RVing with the Scamp, (also when I was a kid) I've seen situations with ALL types of campers and think-- You should NOT own an RV!! And I'm sure yall have seen the same thing.

Ok..my gripe here is, I hear that Escape, Oliver and some others thoroughly go over their trailers with the customer BEFORE they're taken out of the factory. Scamp did NOT do that with me. It was the lil ole fart that needed to retire that rushed me through.... would not take the time to give me "hands-on". Then I struggled with the goofy stabilizers that Scamp puts on the back of their trailers at the first campground and nearly ruined one of them because of it. Hopefully he's gone now and they've changed their introduction to new trailers to someone more caring.

My Scamp did not come with a fire OR carbon monoxide alarm and felt it should. They DO warn in the manual AND vids about CO poisoning which I feel should be covered in a walk-through which should also include wheel bearing maintenance. NOT a 30 min. detail how-to. But just a simple "Keep a watch on your wheel bearings.... ".

I may be off on my thinking, but this is just what I experienced and feel should have been or SHOULD be done.
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Old 05-01-2015, 09:53 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Bob Miller View Post

Not to mention that it may be impossible for someone to be standing in front of the trailer, appliance etc. while viewing said videos.


Videos can be very helpful as a supplement to printed material, but be it 2015 or not, there is still a place in the world for hard copy.
Well the reality is Bob that every Scamp DOES come with paper manual as well as one for each appliance, that one can sit in front of their appliance and read while trying to figure out what is wrong with it and they have done so for YEARS - even my 24 year old trailer came with a complete package.

But the reality of the new digital age is that those paper manuals supplied by the appliance manufacturer may now only be one page long showing you the very basic use of the item and directing you to a website to download the PDF for full instructions for the item. I have purchased a number of items in the past couple of years that did not come with anything other than an 2 page instruction card. If you want more details as to operation you need to go online and download the PDF and store it on your laptop, iPad or smart phone and sit with that in front of the item while you try and figure out how to use it.

In the old days we could at least expect a DVD/CD to come with the item with the complete instruction manual on it. With the death of the DVD/CD player on computers that practise has pretty well vanished as well. Digital documents only are the new reality.

As most people here who have been around awhile know Scamp is the most old school of all the trailer manufactures when it comes to using new technology. It only been in the last 8 years or so that they even had e-mail. The webpage up until just a few years ago was a simple one of only a couple of pages directing you to call them on a 1-800 number. No online parts store, no interactive videos - it was about as simple a webpage as a company could have & still be in biz. By the photos on the old webpage they looked like they were lost in the 70's.

Bottom line is if Scamp stops supplying paper manuals for people such as yourself who are not wishing to embrace the new digital world I don't think it would be something they choose to do but were like you forced to do!
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Old 05-01-2015, 10:06 AM   #56
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My Scamp came with a written manual AND DVD's loaded with videos to back it up. Plus, they packaged all the manuals with the awning, fridge, A/C etc. Well, everything but the Dexter Axle which to me was the most critical!! Anyway, they didnt weigh me down.... .

Hey guys...NOTHING will ever replace good common sense which means asking questions, looking at manuals, videos..... well you know what I mean.

But honestly, with my 5 personal years of RVing with the Scamp, (also when I was a kid) I've seen situations with ALL types of campers and think-- You should NOT own an RV!! And I'm sure yall have seen the same thing.

Ok..my gripe here is, I hear that Escape, Oliver and some others thoroughly go over their trailers with the customer BEFORE they're taken out of the factory. Scamp did NOT do that with me. It was the lil ole fart that needed to retire that rushed me through.... would not take the time to give me "hands-on". Then I struggled with the goofy stabilizers that Scamp puts on the back of their trailers at the first campground and nearly ruined one of them because of it. Hopefully he's gone now and they've changed their introduction to new trailers to someone more caring.

My Scamp did not come with a fire OR carbon monoxide alarm and felt it should. They DO warn in the manual AND vids about CO poisoning which I feel should be covered in a walk-through which should also include wheel bearing maintenance. NOT a 30 min. detail how-to. But just a simple "Keep a watch on your wheel bearings.... ".

I may be off on my thinking, but this is just what I experienced and feel should have been or SHOULD be done.
You did get a follow-up on your way home though. I often think this is better anyway since it gives time to digest that first "bite" of information given at the factory.
I recommend newbies go to a ScampCamp soon after purchase where they can get a good exposure to information and have questions answered.
I have bought a lot of cars and even houses, and have never gotten a seminar with any of them, same is true of the tools and appliances I have bought over the years.
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Old 05-01-2015, 10:11 AM   #57
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I have to say it Floyd, but the MOST information I had gotten on my Scamp before I purchased it was from you. The factory contributed NOTHING of value to me. The BEST information I've gotten for the past 5 yrs is from "experience". But THAT can be costly because of "ignorance".

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You did get a follow-up on your way home though. I often think this is better anyway since it gives time to digest that first "bite" of information given at the factory.
I recommend newbies go to a ScampCamp soon after purchase where they can get a good exposure to information and have questions answered.
I have bought a lot of cars and even houses, and have never gotten a seminar with any of them, same is true of the tools and appliances I have bought over the years.
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Old 05-01-2015, 10:14 AM   #58
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Hmmmmm... I've yet to see a manual for a Scamp, but I am sure that they exist somewhere.


But I think that you make my point, most of your suggestions require that the buyer/owner do something that the manufacturer should have done, but didn't do.


And I tried printing out one of those videos, didn't work out so well...
I think that I am only suggesting that the buyer/owner do something that they should do for themselves. homework first... purchase later.
Every question I asked of Scamp was answered before the check was written.
Most fiberglass buyers are smarter and better educated than the general population anyway... it seems half of them are retired school teachers!
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Old 05-01-2015, 10:20 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Darral T. View Post

Ok..my gripe here is, I hear that Escape, Oliver and some others thoroughly go over their trailers with the customer BEFORE they're taken out of the factory. Scamp did NOT do that with me. It was the lil ole fart that needed to retire that rushed me through.... would not take the time to give me "hands-on". Then I struggled with the goofy stabilizers that Scamp puts on the back of their trailers at the first campground and nearly ruined one of them because of it. Hopefully he's gone now and they've changed their introduction to new trailers to someone more caring.

.
Don't count on it! Having worked for a family owned and operated company for a time I know how hard it is to fire or force a family member to retire

I am *sorry* though to hear Darral that the orientation on pick up was so lacking.
Got to wonder though if it is simple due to the fact they are building an economical trailer and in order to keep it affordable they need to keep operating costs down so they simple can not afford to provide the same level of customer service the other two manufactures you mention are. There is a very real cost to a company that is providing *good* customer service & it does not come cheap and the cost of it will be built into the sales price of the item being sold.

Not trying to make an excuse for Scamp just looking for an explanation for it.
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Old 05-01-2015, 11:17 AM   #60
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I have bought a lot of cars and even houses, and have never gotten a seminar with any of them, same is true of the tools and appliances I have bought over the years.
-------------------------------------------------------

Ya, but you usually have a drivers license when you buy a car and most peeps have a professional (and in California, licensed) home inspection done before buying.

Any thing less is either illegal or foolish.

As I mentioned in the beginning, my local RV dealer "schools" new RV owners and will take 2 hours or more to do that , as well as confirming that the TV is rated and equipped to tow what the customer is buying.



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