A Riviting Scamp Tale

[Jim Reimer]

I love a riveting tale.. Here goes.
Yesterday I began to look into water leaks and loose rivets in my 3 yr old Scamp 16 side dinette. I actually had a few replaced in 2015, on a warrantee visit to the Factory, en-route to the Maritimes. Some of those were loose and leaking again. They had replaced the rivets with bolts and cap nuts. Problem is, the cap nuts bottomed out before the bolts were adequately tight.
I have put about 12000 miles or 20,000 Km on our Scamp since the purchase in March of 2014
I proceeded to repair using 1/4" x 20 nuts with washers to tighten and compress the fur and bubble foil so the bolts would maintain their stability and water seal in the midst of all the rocking and rolling of being on the road (which is the reason I purchased a Travel Trailer) and put the cap nut on the remaining bolt end as a finishing touch.
In the process the compression resulted in adjacent rivets becoming loose. We proceeded to replace rivets with bolts and nuts as described until I was satisfied with both the stability and water tightness. In the future I will keep my eye on loosening rivets and keep doing the same.
What has the experience of others been with this dilemma of dealing with what I would call the breaking in process of rivets that sandwich uncompressed fur and bubble foil in these trailers.
Ownership requires one to embrace the benefits and challenges of this type of camper, and coming out on top. I still need to ask the question, can manufacturing do a better job of reducing the need for this type of overhaul.

[floyd]

Originally Posted by Manitoba Jim

I love a riveting tale.. Here goes.
Yesterday I began to look into water leaks and loose rivets in my 3 yr old Scamp 16 side dinette. I actually had a few replaced in 2015, on a warrantee visit to the Factory, en-route to the Maritimes. Some of those were loose and leaking again. They had replaced the rivets with bolts and cap nuts. Problem is, the cap nuts bottomed out before the bolts were adequately tight.
I have put about 12000 miles or 20,000 Km on our Scamp since the purchase in March of 2014
I proceeded to repair using 1/4" x 20 nuts with washers to tighten and compress the fur and bubble foil so the bolts would maintain their stability and water seal in the midst of all the rocking and rolling of being on the road (which is the reason I purchased a Travel Trailer) and put the cap nut on the remaining bolt end as a finishing touch.
In the process the compression resulted in adjacent rivets becoming loose. We proceeded to replace rivets with bolts and nuts as described until I was satisfied with both the stability and water tightness. In the future I will keep my eye on loosening rivets and keep doing the same.
What has the experience of others been with this dilemma of dealing with what I would call the breaking in process of rivets that sandwich uncompressed fur and bubble foil in these trailers.
Ownership requires one to embrace the benefits and challenges of this type of camper, and coming out on top. I still need to ask the question, can manufacturing do a better job of reducing the need for this type of overhaul.

My personal experience has been 14 years and 70,000miles+ without a single failed through the hull fastener.

As for my experience on other people's trailers, There are precisely three particular rivets which seem prone to failure on late model Scamps, all on the 13Standard, all on the big bed front bath. Two above the side closet and one in the bulkhead wall. It has proven best to use bolts for these stress points. Simply use a bolt the size of the rivet hole with a head which can fit inside the snap cap washer and a length to accommodate an appropriate sized acorn nut. Best not to overtighten to avoid the damage to adjacent fasteners or eventually to the hull or fixture.
Sometimes an ill applied the cure can prove worse than the disease.

Realistic and accurate feedback can be beneficial to both the manufacturer and the buyer, but 45 years of this building technique has proven reliable without the general need for anything like your type of overhaul.

This is not to say that there have been no failures other than those mentioned above nor is it justification for a claim that the problem is endemic.

[Radar1]

We've had pretty good experience replacing any of our broken rivets with 1/4 x 20 screws with a nylock nut on the end. I keep 3 screw lengths with me; 3/4", 1", and 1 1/4" and those seem to cover the varying widths needed.
Just be careful not to tighten them so much that the fiberglass starts to depress more than the surrounding area.
I also ordered the washers that are used with the 1/4 screws from Pro-Dec as well as additional snap caps, so I can replace any sun damaged snap caps whenever I see them, which in turn protects the washers from sun damage.

[Radar1]

Originally Posted by floyd

My personal experience has been 14 years and 70,000miles+ without a single failed through the hull fastener.

Floyd, that must be due to the extremely smooth roads you have up in Illinois!

[floyd]

Originally Posted by Radar1

Floyd, that must be due to the extremely smooth roads you have up in Illinois!

Like this?...
Maybe its because of Georgia through which we have driven dozens of times.
I-75 is actually one of the most pleasant roads on which to ride in the country, even in Florida.

Unfortunately We have driven a lot on I-94 in Wisconsin, the worst built road in the country for trailers. We might have a smoother ride in the ditch.

[Darral T.]

I'll never forget my FIRST pull with the Scamp coming home through Wisconsin! We felt as if the truck and Scamp were actually GALLOPING! It was weird. I figured if the Scamp could hold through Wisconsin, it'd stand up to anything. Thank God for Tennessee roads to which we mainly travel with our Scamp!!!

I lost the two closet rivets on my 13' Scamp and replaced them with 10-32 screws and nylock nuts with washers. That's been several years. Dont see why Scamp doesnt go with bolts/screws with locknuts on top - or the main bulkhead, closets or any other roof bracing. Dunno what they've changed in 40 yrs, but the rivets are not holding like they are proclaimed to hold in the past obviously!

[floyd]

Originally Posted by Darral T.

I'll never forget my FIRST pull with the Scamp coming home through Wisconsin! We felt as if the truck and Scamp were actually GALLOPING! It was weird. I figured if the Scamp could hold through Wisconsin, it'd stand up to anything. Thank God for Tennessee roads to which we mainly travel with our Scamp!!!

I lost the two closet rivets on my 13' Scamp and replaced them with 10-32 screws and nylock nuts with washers. That's been several years. Dont see why Scamp doesnt go with bolts/screws with locknuts on top - or the main bulkhead, closets or any other roof bracing. Dunno what they've changed in 40 yrs, but the rivets are not holding like they are proclaimed to hold in the past obviously!

Notice those are two of the three rivets which I cited in my earlier post and that your trailer is the exact type which I cited as well.
The narrower closet seems to be subject to more flex than its predecessor. It could use four rivets rather than the two provided, or it could use two machine screws with nuts as you have done.
Experience has indicated that a complete change over to machine screws is neither necessary nor desirable.

[RogerDat]

Rivets offer multiple advantages. Not the least of which is how many people does it take to put in a blind rivet? Vs. how many to tighten bolt against nut that is on the other side of a wall?

For myself dear wife is willing but not exactly thrilled to get wrench holding detail on inside of camper. For assembly two guys vs. one. Plus some locations would become difficult to work in. External furnace vent cover would require wrench holder be inside a cupboard or closet, or just stand outside and rivet the cover on.

Torque is another reason threaded fasteners require a certain amount of tightening to be both effectively tight without damaging the joined pieces. Good mechanic can get a "feel" using hand tools that is accurate to within a few pounds, power tools for automated assembly less so, a rivet will only pull so tight before the shaft breaks. Self limiting to correct torque.

I don't figure there is anything "wrong" with using threaded fasteners but as a private individual the situation is very different than production assembly.

[Jim Reimer]

Thank you for your thoughtful responses. It is good to hear other peoples experiences. My thought would be, the smaller the egg, the less torsion. Most of Scamps production is 13 ft models. I'm sure owners of 16 and 19 ft Scamps will share more of my experience.
No one has responded to the compressibility of the layers of bubble foil and upholstery fur that had resulted in the loss of seal and eventual loosening of the offending rivets, not to mention the repeat failure of the bolt repairs done by Scamp service people. This is the first time I took matters into my own hands.
I'm heading to the Rockies later this week. I plan on remaining in tact.
I would like to hear the experience of someone who has travelled the Alaska Highway without a series of rivet failures.
Jim

[gordon2]

Originally Posted by Manitoba Jim

...
No one has responded to the compressibility of the layers of bubble foil and upholstery fur that had resulted in the loss of seal and eventual loosening of the offending rivets, not to mention the repeat failure of the bolt repairs done by Scamp service people.. .

I bought my Scamp 16 in Sept 2015 and have had two rivet / bolt problems.

1. A rivet that holds the side bath wall to the shell near the stove on the port side came loose. There are two things that I noticed that might have contributed. One is the layer of insulation and rat fur, and the fact that that this area appears to me to be under stress from the flexing while on the road. The insulation and rat fur might have compressed more after the trailer was built. When I replaced it I used a washer under the acorn nut and so far it is OK. The other thing I noticed is that the rivet was not in straight. In fact it was difficult to replace because the hole in the inner fiberglass was not line with the hole in the shell. Perhaps this was "settling" of the components, but I really think it was just sloppy construction.

2. I also had the same situation as previously mentioned with a bolt that Scamp had originally installed, and a acorn nut that bottomed out before it was tight. I was able to rotate the acorn nut by hand. This bolt (used in place of a rivet by Scamp) held the starboard side cabinet with larger fridge and microwave shelf to the roof. I pulled the bolt out, wrapped it in butyl, put it back and used a nyloc nut making sure to not over tighten it and damage the fiberglass. A little Proflex sealant on top seals it up. I also put the acorn nut on after the nyloc nut just for appearance but the nyloc nut does all the work. It might not be as pretty but Scamp should use nyloc nuts instead of acorn nuts when they use bolts instead of rivets.

[Radar1]

We did travel the Alaska highway last year.
It actually seemed a little smoother than I-10 or I-20 between TX and LA, perhaps because you have good warning about where the bad sections are when driving the ALCAN. We did lose two rivets up there, one was on the side dinette bench rear, and the other on the side dinette bench front through the shower. Odd. Anyway, we replaced them with the 1/4 x 20 screws and nylock nuts mentioned earlier.
We have several rivets that have loosened over time just enough to capture a rain drop or two and invite them into the Scamp, so we replace them too as we run across them.
A small pair of vise grip pliers on the inside nut allows me to go out and turn the screw tight on the outside.
Interesting how many styles of rivets are out there, wonder which is best for our Scamps?

[Richard Davis]

I'd sure like to know the best kind too. I recently had my first experience with pop rivets and a rivet gun. It worked quite well, but I discovered I have much to learn about getting the right size of rivet for the job. And now it looks like there are lots of varieties, as well as sizes. Scamp sent me rivets for the job when I ordered the parts. But the rivets Scamp supplied were too thick for the existing holes (either in the fiberglass shell of the Scamp or the plastic part I had ordered from Scamp). So I tried a thinner rivet I had in a miscellaneous collection. They went in fine, but by the next day, they had pulled out! So I drilled all the holes a bit larger in the shell and the plastic part and re-installed, using the rivets Scamp had sent. Everything is fine now. But there's clearly lots more to try to know IN ADVANCE!!

[emersunrose]

"....When I replaced it I used a washer under the acorn nut ..."

".... a bolt that Scamp had originally installed, and a acorn nut that bottomed out before it was tight. I was able to rotate the acorn nut by hand. This bolt (used in place of a rivet by Scamp) held the starboard side cabinet with larger fridge and microwave shelf to the roof. I pulled the bolt out, wrapped it in butyl, put it back and used a nyloc nut making sure to not over tighten it and damage the fiberglass. A little Proflex sealant on top seals it up...."

I am just so confused. I thought that Scamps were all rivets but there are acorn nuts. I've been trying to make sense of it and keep getting more and more confused. Is there some sort of guide about where to use rivets and where to use bolts? Is there an explanation about the use of snap caps? About plastic washers? I'm asking because we need to replace some missing rivets.... but the most obvious ones are around a cabinet, which has/had acorn nuts. HELP!!! (thanks!)

[Borrego Dave]

Originally Posted by emersunrose

"....When I replaced it I used a washer under the acorn nut ..."
I am just so confused. I thought that Scamps were all rivets but there are acorn nuts. I've been trying to make sense of it and keep getting more and more confused. Is there some sort of guide about where to use rivets and where to use bolts? Is there an explanation about the use of snap caps? About plastic washers? I'm asking because we need to replace some missing rivets.... but the most obvious ones are around a cabinet, which has/had acorn nuts. HELP!!! (thanks!)

Hi, yes, Scamps are riveted but I believe they are also using 2-3 machine screws now on the front cabinet because of those rivets breaking often. The snap caps are really only there for a cleaner look. Many older FGTTs didn't use them. The outer covers can/do take a beating from UV and will crack. They are easily replaceable and if you should find the caps cracking replace them with new ones to protect the bottom cup. If the cup rots you'll have to drill out the rivet to replace it. Acorn nuts are also just to pretty up the finished look and have no bearing on the rivet strength. They are held over the inside rivet end by a second person as the rivet is installed. The rivet end expands inside the acorn nut to hold it for the clean look. I believe that any rivet that shows in the living space that comes in from the outside had an acorn nut on it. You shouldn't need any washers behind any rivet although some folks may use them here and there. Someone here posted a chart/list of the locations and sizes of the Scamp rivets. I can't find it but maybe someone else will come through.
Hope that helps a bit......think this was almost a novel length for me .

[emersunrose]

Thank you, Dave. Very helpful information!

[emersunrose]

Originally Posted by Borrego Dave

Someone here posted a chart/list of the locations and sizes of the Scamp rivets. I can't find it but maybe someone else will come through.

FOUND IT!!!
http://www.fiberglassrv.com/forums/f...art-78434.html

[JudyG]

found this post very helpful! Do now have a related question. Just received a new ceiling hatch to replace the broken one in my recently acquired used Scamp. Thought I could simply use rivets from a bag that came with the unit. BUT, you guys say there are different sizes - duh, I didn't know that. So, how do I figure out what size to use to attach the new opening? Rivets were so messed up after I cut them out, can't tell anything from looking at them. And related, would it be a good idea to re-glue the fur and insulation carefully pulled back to get at the dead rivets?