Have you repaired your own Uponor (Wirsbo) ProPEX plumbing? - Fiberglass RV
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Old 03-26-2017, 03:09 PM   #1
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Have you repaired your own Uponor (Wirsbo) ProPEX plumbing?

In my Scamp, I have a leak in the cheap in-line valve to the water heater inlet so now I have to decide if I am going to take the camper to a R/V dealer, a plumber, or buy the Propex expansion tool, new rings and new (quality) valve, and then do it myself.

Taking it to a plumber will be a hassle and likely cost as much as the required expansion tool but at least it should be done right if I have a pro do it.

On the other hand, if I get the expansion tool and learn to use ProPEX properly, I might be able to deal with future problems. The instructions are here:
https://www.uponorpro.com/~/media/Ex...spx?sc_lang=en

So I was wondering if anyone else who is not a plumber has gone this route – bought the tool and if so how did your repair go? Any tips? And should I get the manual or powered version of the expansion tool, and does it make a difference which brand? Any suggested sources for the tools, pipe, rings, etc.?

In this thread, I would prefer to hear from anyone who is self-taught and actually took on a similar repair. I already have my opinions regarding professional vs. DIY work. Thanks
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Old 03-26-2017, 03:29 PM   #2
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Our local Menards sells reusable pex type fittings which require no special tools.I used one when I upgraded my shore water inlet valve and it has been just fine and easy to use.

Mine has a Pex type valve for the water heater, it seems like the same quality as the all rest of the system which appears to be industry standard.
I think you could replace with the same valve or the "no tool" type and get good service from it, mine is 13YO.
I was very satisfied with the fitting I got from Menards which was a 90 degree to fit my new shore water connection.
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Old 03-26-2017, 03:52 PM   #3
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I have also used the reusable fittings successfully. Another option would be to rent a crimper.
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Old 03-26-2017, 04:19 PM   #4
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Our local Menards sells reusable pex type fittings which require no special tools.I used one when I upgraded my shore water inlet valve and it has been just fine and easy to use...
No Menards here and if you are referring to Sharkbite or the like, they have a bad reputation. With all the vibration I don't want to take any shortcuts - I am pretty well set on doing it as Uponor (Wirsbo) as designed it to be done.


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I have also used the reusable fittings successfully. Another option would be to rent a crimper.
I have the regular crimper for copper PEX rings and have used it with Type-B PEX in a house just fine. But my understanding is that the Uponor pipe used in the Scamps is Type-A that is designed to be expanded and then shrinks back to its original size and shape, which locks it water-tight onto the fittings. Further, as I understand it, you can use standard copper crimp rings with a crimp tool with Type-A, but then instead of the pipe and ring pushing against the fitting as it tries to go back to original size and shape, you then have a copper ring that is pushing the pipe and the pipe is pushing back, making it less secure or at least less guaranteed not to leak.

But again, I am pretty much dead set on using the expansion method as described in the instructions I linked to. Just wondering how hard it is and if there are any gotchas to be careful about.
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Old 03-26-2017, 04:24 PM   #5
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Call your local Pawn Shops to C if they have any crimpers. You will need to know the correct size. I could more than likely get you one for around $10 plus postage as I do part time in one in Virginia. Part time, 15 days last year and 14 hours so far this year.
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Old 03-26-2017, 04:44 PM   #6
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Call your local Pawn Shops to C if they have any crimpers. You will need to know the correct size. I could more than likely get you one for around $10 plus postage as I do part time in one in Virginia. Part time, 15 days last year and 14 hours so far this year.
I have a PEX crimper.. the plumbing used in the Scamp uses an expander, not a crimper.

They are much less common, and if you buy from the source I linked to, over $400 for the powered version of the tool. I wonder if the manual one would be OK for a maybe one time use. My internet research leads me to conclude the powered one does a better job. And it looks like it could get into tighter spaces.
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Old 03-26-2017, 06:09 PM   #7
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No Menards here and if you are referring to Sharkbite or the like, they have a bad reputation. With all the vibration I don't want to take any shortcuts - I am pretty well set on doing it as Uponor (Wirsbo) as designed it to be done.

But again, I am pretty much dead set on using the expansion method as described in the instructions I linked to. Just wondering how hard it is and if there are any gotchas to be careful about.
Sorry to hear you have no Menards, but I'm sure you have a BigBox Hardware store of SOB.
I went over to the Menards to check and found the brand,It is "Watts Quick Connect" (see photo below) they have a full line of Pex and Wirsbo compatible fittings. It works Great and it is White but I don't think it is a "great white sharkbite"!
They do have the kit for the conventional Pex $179.

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Old 03-26-2017, 06:20 PM   #8
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...
I went over to the Menards to check and found the brand,It is "Watts Quick Connect" (see photo below) they have a full line of Pex and Wirsbo compatible fittings. ...
Thanks for the lead, but I am not seeing anything in the spec sheet that tells me it is compatible.

I'll call some plumbers tomorrow and see what it might run to have it fixed.
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Old 03-26-2017, 06:27 PM   #9
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Thanks for the lead, but I am not seeing anything in the spec sheet that tells me it is compatible.

I'll call some plumbers tomorrow and see what it might run to have it fixed.
Every package on the shelf said "Wirsbo and Pex compatible" across the label. I have had one in place for a few years now with no problems.
Here is a video from the company...
https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/s...11&action=view
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Old 03-26-2017, 06:35 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by floyd View Post
Sorry to here you have no Menards, but I'm sure you have a BigBox Hardware store of SOB.
I went over to the Menards to check and found the brand,It is "Watts Quick Connect" (see photo below) they have a full line of Pex and Wirsbo compatible fittings. It works Great and it is White but I don't think it is a "great white sharkbite"!
They do have the kit for the conventional Pex $179.

I've installed two of the valves shown in Floyd's post in my Casita . After 2 years , I have not had any valve issues or leaks. . My Casita came with Pex tubing utilizing the copper crimp rings and again not one issue .
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Old 03-27-2017, 05:03 AM   #11
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This is also a case for having a preasure limiter when connected to camp ground water.
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Old 03-27-2017, 06:17 AM   #12
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This is also a case for having a preasure limiter when connected to camp ground water.
The cause of the leak is off topic but yes, I use one when I directly hook up to water, but I have not done that in a very long time. I usually fill the onboard tank.
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Old 03-27-2017, 12:31 PM   #13
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Well… I called three local plumbers (highly rated on HomeAdvisor.com) and none work with Uponor plumbing as a rule. One had the tool but put me on hold for five minutes... BYE! The next acted like I was speaking a foreign language and had apparently not even heard of this plumbing technique. The last knew about it and was helpful with information but did not have the needed tools.

So we are trying the DIY route.

There seems to be no consensus on using copper crimp rings on Uponor pipe and regular valves or fittings, except that you won’t have a warranty. In my Scamp, the plumbing is not under pressure all the time like my home. In fact I only run the pump when I am actually using water, and have added a LED light to remind me if I leave the switch on. Furthermore, when not camping I drain the piping. So any leak will be found and stopped before it can do any damage. Therefore I was willing to try standard PEX crimp rings, but because the pipe and valve has to be assembled before crimping there is no way I could get the large tool on it. With the expander, one can bend the pipe enough to get the tool on it, expand the pipe and assemble the joint. At least that what I am hoping I can do.

I got the bad valve off, it’s a bit of a bugger to do that. I should cut back the PEX but I am going to try a new valve without doing that because it would become a more extensive project and like I said, any failure will not be catastrophic. I ordered a non-Uponor brand hand expander tool from Amazon and a compatible valve and rings from supplyhouse.
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Old 03-27-2017, 08:34 PM   #14
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You will never have a problem with PEX copper crimp rings and brass barbs. They are the industry standard, the tools come in various designs to fit tight places and they NEVER fail.

I have used many hundreds of them for over 30 years now with no failures.

The Upanor setup is OK, but the tools are cumbersome and expensive. The fittings are proprietary and expensive, and they are harder to find.

Just go to Lowes and get everything you need at one stop.

I would not use the Sharkbite push-on fittings in any situation other than an emergency or where there was no room for the tool. I have used some of them where required in the past, but the design is much less robust and they are likely to leak if under some strain. Use crimp rings wherever you can.
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Old 03-27-2017, 08:36 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by gordon2 View Post
Well… I called three local plumbers (highly rated on HomeAdvisor.com) and none work with Uponor plumbing as a rule. One had the tool but put me on hold for five minutes... BYE! The next acted like I was speaking a foreign language and had apparently not even heard of this plumbing technique. The last knew about it and was helpful with information but did not have the needed tools.

So we are trying the DIY route.

There seems to be no consensus on using copper crimp rings on Uponor pipe and regular valves or fittings, except that you won’t have a warranty. In my Scamp, the plumbing is not under pressure all the time like my home. In fact I only run the pump when I am actually using water, and have added a LED light to remind me if I leave the switch on. Furthermore, when not camping I drain the piping. So any leak will be found and stopped before it can do any damage. Therefore I was willing to try standard PEX crimp rings, but because the pipe and valve has to be assembled before crimping there is no way I could get the large tool on it. With the expander, one can bend the pipe enough to get the tool on it, expand the pipe and assemble the joint. At least that what I am hoping I can do.

I got the bad valve off, it’s a bit of a bugger to do that. I should cut back the PEX but I am going to try a new valve without doing that because it would become a more extensive project and like I said, any failure will not be catastrophic. I ordered a non-Uponor brand hand expander tool from Amazon and a compatible valve and rings from supplyhouse.
Looking at your picture I notice that your lines are color coded and your connectors are translucent white.
Mine are just the opposite, all of my lines are translucent white and my connectors are color coded.
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Old 03-28-2017, 07:47 AM   #16
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My supplier of VR parts warned me about the use of the SHARKBITE connectors for the trailer.
They work very well under pressure but when traveling with our RV there is no pressure in the plumbing, accompanied by road vibrations and if some tension is exerted, the pipe can slide slowly and a good day We can end up with water damage ...
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Old 04-08-2017, 12:41 PM   #17
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Well… I called three local plumbers (highly rated on HomeAdvisor.com) and none work with Uponor plumbing as a rule. One had the tool but put me on hold for five minutes... BYE! The next acted like I was speaking a foreign language and had apparently not even heard of this plumbing technique. The last knew about it and was helpful with information but did not have the needed tools.

So we are trying the DIY route.

There seems to be no consensus on using copper crimp rings on Uponor pipe and regular valves or fittings, except that you won’t have a warranty. In my Scamp, the plumbing is not under pressure all the time like my home. In fact I only run the pump when I am actually using water, and have added a LED light to remind me if I leave the switch on. Furthermore, when not camping I drain the piping. So any leak will be found and stopped before it can do any damage. Therefore I was willing to try standard PEX crimp rings, but because the pipe and valve has to be assembled before crimping there is no way I could get the large tool on it. With the expander, one can bend the pipe enough to get the tool on it, expand the pipe and assemble the joint. At least that what I am hoping I can do.

I got the bad valve off, it’s a bit of a bugger to do that. I should cut back the PEX but I am going to try a new valve without doing that because it would become a more extensive project and like I said, any failure will not be catastrophic. I ordered a non-Uponor brand hand expander tool from Amazon and a compatible valve and rings from supplyhouse.
Oh what a fiasco this turned out to be…

So, I got the very nice replacement valve (lead free brass) and the rings from supplyhouse in a few days. The PEX expander tool ordered on Amazon took eleven days to arrive and the day before it did arrive, I got an email from the seller that explained that they had mislabeled some units and if I got the wrong one, just return it. Well sure enough it was the wrong one. The seller offered to sell me another one but because all the stock at Amazon was probably mislabeled it would have to come from the manufacture’s factory in... you guessed it... China.

So I made some more phone calls. First to rental shops to see if I could locate one with the expander tool. No luck.. Next to find a plumber that works on ProPEX. Looks like there us one about 50 minutes away.

However keep in mind all this hassle was to fix a leak in the shutoff valve for a water heater that I have never used since buying the Scamp in Sept 2015. At this point I think I will end up removing it altogether. So today I capped off the line with a plug and standard copper crimp ring. Now I have my plumbing back, sans hot water (which I don’t need anyway).

Getting the crimp tool in that tight space was not easy. I had to cut the tubing back a little. Not only is that proper technique, but the expanded PEX pipe seems to stay expanded just enough to prevent the crimp ring from going on. If I cut it back any more to get it out of the way, I would not have been able to get the crimp tool on the ring. If I decide to keep the water heater, it will be necessary to procure the expander tool, remove the blue pipe back to the “T” fitting, make up a new piece of tubing with the valve inline, and run it from the “T” to the heater intake.

This type of PEX and connectors is good stuff but it would be better for me if it was more commonly used in this area, or if the tools were cheaper or available used.

By the way, I have two theories on the cause of the leak: 1. Freeze damage. 2. Excessive bending of the pipe putting strain on the connection at the valve. I have noticed that in at least one other area of the plumbing, Scamp did not follow all of the recommendations or requirements as listed in the ProPEX instruction manual.
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Old 04-08-2017, 01:19 PM   #18
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gordon,

I see no good reason to use the Propex system. It's works fine, but the special tools and hard to find parts make it impractical.

As far as crimp rings are concerned, you don't use an expander tool with them, so that must be why you had trouble getting the crimp ring on. Just put the ring on the tube and push the tube onto the fitting. Then crimp it.

Some crimp tools look like bolt cutters and are hard to get into tight places. Others look more like slip joint pliers and are easy to get in. You can also use the cinch ring system for tight places.

All of this stuff is readily available at Lowes, off he shelf. Home Depot has the fittings and rings, but maybe not the tool.

I've also found that a lot of guys tend to think in copper even when using PEX. The beauty of PEX is it's flexibility. You can snake it through tight places and bend most 90 degree turns. I never use 90s when using PEX.
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Old 04-08-2017, 01:44 PM   #19
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gordon,

I see no good reason to use the Propex system. It's works fine, but the special tools and hard to find parts make it impractical.
The reason they use it is first cost savings, both in labor and parts. The secondary reason as I understand it is that since the rings and tube continue to apply pressure basically forever (unlike copper crimp rings that once crimped, only apply the pressure of the crimp), it is more secure in a camper that get a lot of vibration on the road.

But my essence of my story is that yes indeed, its a PIA system when you have to do a repair and the system is not commonly used.

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As far as crimp rings are concerned, you don't use an expander tool with them, so that must be why you had trouble getting the crimp ring on. Just put the ring on the tube and push the tube onto the fitting. Then crimp it.

..
Yes I understand all that (read all the posts).. but I removed the leaking valve by carefully cutting off the rings (so as not to damage the pipe), warming the pipe and pulling out the valve. The intent to was to reuse the original lengths with a valve of the same size. The prior connection had already been made with an expander and the pipe remained slightly expanded (even after heating which is supposed to return it to original). In fact, you can see that in this piece that I cut off from the water heater intake side. Once I cut the pipe back a little under an inch, the crimp ring went on with no problem. If not cut back, it might even leak.

The PEX crimper I have is the bolt cutter looking one.. and it was a tight fit in that small space. There was no way to use my tool to crimp sides of the valve but I think it would have been doable with the ProPEX expander. At least that what my measurements showed, but since I never got the tool I can't be sure it would have been possible. Maybe I would have had to go back to the "T" as I described, which is possible with the expander but not with my big crimper. And I sure a heck was not going to go out and buy a special crimper for confined spaces when I have one that works fine 99% of the time.

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...
I've also found that a lot of guys tend to think in copper even when using PEX. The beauty of PEX is it's flexibility. You can snake it through tight places and bend most 90 degree turns. I never use 90s when using PEX.
Yes you can get by with fewer fittings but there is a turn radius limit specified by the manufacturer. If you exceed that, then a fitting (90 or otherwise) is needed.
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Old 04-08-2017, 03:05 PM   #20
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gordon,

Glad you got your setup back in working order.

It's always better to cut the tube and start with a fresh end. This way the rings are easier to deal with, the barb grooves on the interior of the tube won't affect the seal and you don't have to carefully cut the rings off.

The labor on the crimp system seems much simpler and faster to me. Simply slip the ring on, push the tube on and crimp it. Done. And again, the proprietary nature of the Propex system leads to expensive and hard to find parts and tools. Can't see how the cost of parts can be cheaper either. But the Sharkbite fitting are probably more expensive.

I've never had a crimp ring connection fail. As long as you use metal fittings instead of the old plastic ones. I've even cut off the ring and reused the tube without snipping it off. I've also used them on boat water supply lines that were out in the weather, on a dock, next to a continuously moving boat and being stepped on or kicked every day. They have frozen/thawed repeatedly in the winter and never had a failure. Finally, after kinking the tube repeatedly near the fitting, from being kicked, or folded by the boat, they would begin to leak near the fitting, but not the fitting or the crimp. They leaked because the tube was fatiguing from kinking so many times. In that case the tube can be snipped off, the crimp ring cut off and the stub of tube pulled off. Then the connection re-made with a new ring. Back in business.

When fixing damaged PEX in slabs, where somebody drilled hole an hit it, the crimp system allows the smallest hole in the concrete.

The 3/8" PEX (1/2" OD) works well down to about a 6" diameter return bend, or 3" radius. The 1/2" PEX (5/8" OD) is good to about a 9" diameter or 4.5" radius. These limits can be pushed a bit if needed, but it's a practical limit. This is tight enough for almost every situation. It makes the job better, with fewer parts and less labor, and it flows better.

In my way of thinking, it's just better to go with an industry standard where parts are readily available and cheap. If I thought the Propex system was better I would use it because I guarantee my work and have been in the business for a long time.

All of this talk about crimping and special tools and such demonstrate why Sharkbite fittings are so popular. Just push them on. But I won't use them.
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