Help me decide....

[Darnelle]

I can't advise on comparisons of those three campers, but I agree with needing enough head-room to stand upright and having seats at the proper height so my feet are flat on the floor.

Also, IMO, the amount of insulation in a camper is not a big consideration. We had winter camped in our 1972 13' Scamp and were very warm and that vintage has almost no insulation. We used an oil-filled electric heater and found ourselves opening the windows and ceiling vent! The amount of space being heated is so small compared to the capacities of most heaters. Add people and water for cooking and washing and you'll probably want a little ventilation anyway to reduce inside humidity.

[Carol H]

"Both the Casita and Scamp have single wall fiberglass covered with fabric for insulation"

Actually in the case of Scamp it has reflectix covering the fiberglass for insulation and the fabric/rat fur covers that.

[Raya]

I think that Scamp actually uses "Foil Ray" insulation, but it looks similar to Reflectix and probably functions nearly the same. That said, I don't see how they can possibly be getting the R-value they claim, considering that they have two layers stacked together and no air spaces to speak of.

[Carol H]

What every the type of foil insulation my Scamp has it does have space between the two layers of foil - kind of like a bunch of bubbles.

[Raya]

Carol,

That's interesting, and perhaps I have to take back what I said. But when the discussion about foil type insulation and R-values occurred before, several of us went to look up the specs on the insulation manufacturer's site, and that's when we found out that adding a second layer adds only something very, very minimal unless there is a relatively good-sized air space. And the Scamp site showed just two layers stacked together (in their manual). (The air space between the bubbles doesn't count; there has to be air space between the sheets themselves - I forget the exact amount, but something like an inch.

I just couldn't imagine there being an inch gap in there and the cabinets and things still fitting. Plus, how do they hold the sheets apart? And they why do they show it as just a double layer on their site.

I'll find what I looked up before. I remember calculating the Scamp R-value at around 5 or less, but Scamp says 15. But let me get some real numbers and not recollections.

Edited to add: Here is a link to one of our past discussions that explains why R-15 cannot be calculated for a sandwich of fiberglass shell/foil layer/foil layer/rat fur. It's a bit tricky to find details on Foil Ray, but easier for Reflectix, and they do have the same philosophy/design. I would imagine R-value for the two to be very comparable if not exactly the same. Basically, it's more of a radiant barrier than an insulation, and air space on all sides is very important to its function.

Start at post #7 in this thread:

http://www.fiberglassrv.com/forums/f...ons-40651.html

Excerpt from above; sounds like the Scamp calculates to be around R-4 or so:

As they say, it really depends on the air space. Each layer is about a quarter inch thick and has an R-factor of about 1. Two layers thus has an R-factor of about 2. Add to that the R-factor of the glass and fleece and you get about 2.5 or 3...

I cannot copy from Reflectix's page, but they explain how it works here, and why air spaces on each side of the material are important to its function. They also explain why a "doubled up" second layer only gives an additional R-1.1 It's a pretty quick and easy read.

http://www.reflectixinc.com/basepage...atisanR-value?

[Matt in SV]

there's some info at Reflectix Inc. | About Reflective Technology | Performance Information I believe the bottom line is that to maximize the benefit, even that first layer needs some dead air space - like 3/4 of an inch to get a benefit from the reflective surface, otherwise that first layer will get you just R=1.1.

why are Air Spaces Required (in every application)?
For either a reflective insulation or a radiant barrier, an air space of a minimum
thickness is required on the reflective side of the product. (Most Reflectix® products
are reflective (shiny) on both sides.) The reflective insulation benefit is derived from
the interaction of the highly reflective surface with the air space. If the reflective
surface is in contact with another building material, it becomes a condudtor
(transmitting the energy by conduction). An air space may be specified on one or both
sides of the product (always on a reflective side). Enclosed air spaces, when
instrudted, are required to provide the stated Rt-value.

What Scamp might be doing - and you'd have to check - is using 2" strips of the reflectix material as a furring strip to stand off the second layer and create that airspace. From the edge, it might look like two layers, but it's really one with some spacing. That is one of the recommended installation methods, and it does give you the reflective benefit.

If You Install 2 Layers of a Reflective Insulation, Does the R-value Double?
with multiple layers of product and airspaces between each layer, enhanced
performance will be gained. If the product is simply “doubled” (with no air space
between the layers), a very minimal benefit is obtained (R-1.1 (per layer) for the
Reflective/Double Bubble product).

what if There is No Air Space Present on Either Side of the Product?
No Air Space = No Reflective Insulation Benefit
(An R.-1.1 is provided from the product itself for the Reflective/Double Bubble
material.)

[Raya]

Thanks, Matt, I could not get anything on their pages to "highlight" so that I could copy it over.

I also can't copy/paste from Scamp's Owner's Manual Document (downloadable .pdf on their website), but on Page 3, they describe using a "double layer" of "bubble foil sided insulation" "glued onto the roof and walls" after which "the headliner is glued onto the insulation" "R value rating is about 15."

So, it does not sound like they are using any air/strips (indeed this seems like it would make for "stripes" in the rat fur of different levels). The drawing clearly shows a double layer also (same page). No air space is shown. It's hard to see any way to figure it over R-4 or so. I wonder if they do not understand about how the double layer does not double R-value (although even then I don't see exactly how they get R-15).

That said, I don't build the Scamps, so I'm just going from the information I can find.

Raya

[floyd]

Originally Posted by Jim Norman

The owner of the Egg Camper, Jim Palmer is an aerospace engineer and is meticulous about his product. He feels pressurized propane is a liability. He provides a generator platform on the tongue and I have a new Yamaha 2000 so I think it's a good match. Both the Casita and Scamp have single wall fiberglass covered with fabric for insulation. The Egg has 2 separate and distinct shells with insulation in between, a much better set up. I'm trying to convince him to install the new acrylic dometic dual pane windows. All in all with the insulation little heat will be lost and once warm it should stay warm. The propane heaters eat battery juice so the Wave catalytic would be my choice to install.

It must be said that while the Eggcamper is a very fine camper, it is not better insulated than a Scamp, nor is the double wall construction inherently superior.
I like the Eggcamper but it is too large to be practical for my purposes.
Of the Larger fiberglass trailers, a real contender is the Oliver heritage version. They are presently on hiatus, waiting out the storm of recession by pursuing other endeavors. They are SPENDY though!

[Penney H. & Mike E.]

We considered an EggCamper last year when looking for a larger trailer. The double walled construction (our first trailer was a 13' Burro, we like the look and 'feel' of double walled), and the height were pluses for us. The two factors that we didn't like was that it was all electric and window placement.

Propane vs electric is a personal choice, we like the option of both. When electrical hook-up is available we have a plug in heater that is quieter than our built-in propane heater, but we did not want to limit our camping choices to available electricity, especially since electrical hook-up sites are more expensive. We like the option of staying where ever, there are many beautiful campgrounds in the NW that do not have electrical hook-ups, or the electrical sites are few and rarely private. We have used our propane heater on many a chilly night in the spring, fall and even summer and been happy to have it. It depends on where, when and how you plan to use your trailer.

We ended up getting an Escape, partially because it was closer & we found a previously owned one, but also because of the windows and propane. The folks who build Escapes have previous experience with trailers and knew what people wanted, liked and needed. Jim at EggCamper is very passionate about NOT having propane, but, though an excellent fiberglass engineer, he had no previous experience with trailers. I think he designed a great trailer for folks who see trailering more of a RVing experience than a camping experience.

You will need to decide how you think you will use your trailer, it sounds like you foresee yourself mostly being where electricity is available. And of course in the warmer months it doesn't matter.

As already mentioned, there is no 'perfect' trailer, but there are wonderful experiences to be had once you buy one........

Penney

[Carol H]

Raya I suspect you are talking about the space between the foil itself and the rat fur in which case you are correct there is no space between the two on the Scamp.

The foil that Scamp uses is actually made by Astro and it is constucted with foil on two sides with a double layer of bubbles on the inside - which gives the foil a bit of a built in spacing - which on its own I would suggest gives it some r-value even without the space on either side of the foil. Here is the link to the product details: http://www.astrofoilint.com/stage/br...20RI%20bro.pdf


As far as figuring out the real r value I will leave up to others LOL

[Raya]

I see plusses and minusses to an egg built with a liner. It's possible for a liner to add structural strength, but not a given (depends on how it is designed and especially on how the liner is attached to the shell; also, it's possible to then build with two thinner shells, so again, stronger is possible but not a given).

I like the shiny clean gelcoated interior of a linered egg; but then on the other hand I don't like the idea that a leak/mold/whatever could get between the liner and the outer shell and I would not be able to get to it.

So... plusses and minusses (as in other features like insulation, height, you-name-it).

[Raya]

Originally Posted by Carol H

Raya I suspect you are talking about the space between the foil itself and the rat fur in which case you are correct there is no space between the two on the Scamp.

The foil that Scamp uses is actually made by Astro and it is constucted with foil on two sides with a double layer of bubbles on the inside - which gives the foil a bit of a built in spacing - which on its own I would suggest gives it some r-value even without the space on either side of the foil. Here is the link to the product details: http://www.astrofoilint.com/stage/br...20RI%20bro.pdf

As far as figuring out the real r value I will leave up to others LOL

Hi Carol,

I will have a look at the Astrofoil info.

That said, I do not believe that air "built in" to the insulation itself "counts" as an air space. If it did, then Reflectix, etc. would not say that two layers back-to-back only added R-1. The air space they are referring to has to be in addition to that inside the bubbles and insulation product itself. This is easier to accomplish in a house wall, where you have inches to work with and not millimeters.

From Astro Foil [I added boldness]:

1. ASTRO-FOIL works best when there is a 3/4” air space on each side of the insulation. (Larger air space is fine but a smaller one reduces its thermal effectiveness.)

They give the R-value of one thickness as about 7 for horizontal (walls) and R-15 up (ceiling), BUT they say this:

These values are obtained in a C236 hot box test and represent the R-Value of the cavity that includes the surround air spaces. The
measurements were made in a cavity framed with standard 2”x4” lumber...ASTRO-FOIL’S ability to reflect heat in open applications is not fully measured by this test. It’s that extra reflective capability that makes it possible for ASTRO-FOIL to keep people and animals comfortable all year long.

I think it's that last sentence that is problematic for an egg application wherein you do not have a ~4" wall to make a the reflective cavity they refer to.

I don't mean to pick on Scamp, or on foil insulation. It certainly gives you something, and is preferable to an uninsulated shell. And our eggs don't need much to stay cosy. But R-15 seems like a stretch, since it is not in a wall cavity, and a doubled up layer (two batts back-to-back) seems to add virtually nothing (R-1).

[floyd]

Originally Posted by Ray N

Jim,
Yes I would, without a doubt. As I said earlier, the most important factor to me was the headroom. I know some people say it doesn't bother them to have to hunch over while in their campers, but I just don't think I could put up with it. Again, the all-electric factor is no problem around here (Florida and Alabama); all the campgrounds seem to have electricity - probably because of the hot summers and the need for AC, (you don't run air conditioners on propane).
If I wasn't so darn tall, or if I lived somewhere where electric hooks-ups weren't so common, it would be a much tougher decision. You can get around most of the no propane handicap with generators, Coleman stoves, ice chests, and portable heaters, but it's not as elegant.

Attached is a picture of me in a Scamp or Casita (I don't remember which), at the Townsend rally this spring. In the EggCamper I have about three inches of headroom to spare in the center of the camper. I only have to hunch over when I get close to one of the ends.

It's a Casita, but please just how tall are you? I'm 6ft and I stand up straight in the Casitas which I have visited, even the 16.

[Raya]

Ray mentioned earlier in the thread that he is 6'4"

Sometimes it is handy to be 5'5"!

Raya

[floyd]

Originally Posted by Carol H

Raya I suspect you are talking about the space between the foil itself and the rat fur in which case you are correct there is no space between the two on the Scamp.

The foil that Scamp uses is actually made by Astro and it is constucted with foil on two sides with a double layer of bubbles on the inside - which gives the foil a bit of a built in spacing - which on its own I would suggest gives it some r-value even without the space on either side of the foil. Here is the link to the product details: http://www.astrofoilint.com/stage/br...20RI%20bro.pdf


As far as figuring out the real r value I will leave up to others LOL

Scamp uses reflextix, not astrofoil, quite a different product...
the first picture below is Reflextix.... The second is astrofoil.

http://tinyurl.com/32oyz3b

[Lizbeth]

Floyd, it looks like exactly the same thing to me.

ASTRO-FOIL reflective foil insulation consists of two layers of polyethylene bubble film sandwiched between two layers of 99.9% pure aluminum foil, making a structure 5/16-inch thick. Depending upon the application, ASTRO-FOIL can outperform 6" of mass insulation in all climates. Even higher performance can be expected in hot, humid climates. ASTRO-FOIL is excellent as a primary insulation for buildings of all types. Preferred by installers and building owners because it is safe to handle, lightweight and works especially well in limited space. There are numerous applications for residential, commercial, industrial and agricultural buildings.

Reflectix® Double Bubble consists of two outer layers of aluminum foil
reflecting 97% of radiant energy. Each layer of foil is bonded to a tough
layer of polyethylene for strength. Two inner layers of insulating bubbles
resist conductive heat flow while a center layer of polyethylene give
Reflectix® high reliability and strength. The Double Bubble product is recommended
when the application calls for enhanced condensation control,
greater strength, and higher thermal qualities. 5/16th inch thickness

[floyd]

Originally Posted by Lizbeth

Floyd, it looks like exactly the same thing to me.

ASTRO-FOIL reflective foil insulation consists of two layers of polyethylene bubble film sandwiched between two layers of 99.9% pure aluminum foil, making a structure 5/16-inch thick. Depending upon the application, ASTRO-FOIL can outperform 6" of mass insulation in all climates. Even higher performance can be expected in hot, humid climates. ASTRO-FOIL is excellent as a primary insulation for buildings of all types. Preferred by installers and building owners because it is safe to handle, lightweight and works especially well in limited space. There are numerous applications for residential, commercial, industrial and agricultural buildings.

Reflectix® Double Bubble consists of two outer layers of aluminum foil
reflecting 97% of radiant energy. Each layer of foil is bonded to a tough
layer of polyethylene for strength. Two inner layers of insulating bubbles
resist conductive heat flow while a center layer of polyethylene give
Reflectix® high reliability and strength. The Double Bubble product is recommended
when the application calls for enhanced condensation control,
greater strength, and higher thermal qualities. 5/16th inch thickness

Even the pictures show the substantial difference in thickness flexibility and bubble size. If it looks like the same thing to you, [they are only pictures afterall] then you should have a sample placed in each hand as I have.
The difference will then be abundantly apparent.


The pictures seemed to confirm my error, sure glad I said... "they are only pictures afterall".
I at least got the names transposed, if not worse Sorry.

[Raya]

It looks similar to me, also. I bought some Reflectix last summer to put in my car windows (had to park my car in a sunny lot while I was away), and while it looks like the upper photo where you cut into it, the edges taper down to look like "just" foil, like the second photo. So my uncut roll of Reflectix looked very similar to the uncut roll in the second photo.a

Edit: Sorry, Floyd, we were posting at the same time. If you have had them both in hand and they are different, then ignore me. I was just commenting based on the photos and my experience with Reflectix. That said, it sounds like the characteristics are similar regarding air spaces and r-values, does it not? (Going by the manufacturer documents).

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by floyd

Scamp uses reflextix, not astrofoil, quite a different product...
the first picture below is Reflextix.... The second is astrofoil.

[B]]Reflectix Inc. | The World’s Largest Manufacturer of Reflective Insulation and Radiant Barrier Products

Actually on Scamps parts page under product discription it reads "Astro Foil insulation. Double bubble with foil on both sides"


Heres the link to their page: Foil Ray Insulation (Per Sq. Ft.)

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by floyd

Even the pictures show the substantial difference in thickness flexibility and bubble size. If it looks like the same thing to you, [they are only pictures afterall] then you should have a sample placed in each hand as I have.
The difference will then be abundantly apparent.

Floyd something isn't right. Both the products claim to be 5/16" thick.