Help me decide.... - Page 2 - Fiberglass RV


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Old 09-21-2010, 10:15 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Jim Norman View Post
The owner of the Egg Camper, Jim Palmer is an aerospace engineer and is meticulous about his product. He feels pressurized propane is a liability. He provides a generator platform on the tongue and I have a new Yamaha 2000 so I think it's a good match. Both the Casita and Scamp have single wall fiberglass covered with fabric for insulation. The Egg has 2 separate and distinct shells with insulation in between, a much better set up. I'm trying to convince him to install the new acrylic dometic dual pane windows. All in all with the insulation little heat will be lost and once warm it should stay warm. The propane heaters eat battery juice so the Wave catalytic would be my choice to install.
Duel pane acrylic windows would be a great addition! I was wondering why they had double walled shell, but not double pane windows.

See if you can also reconfigure the tongue to accommodate 2 batteries. Adding LED light bulbs will really help you keep the juice flowing for your heater.

Lizbeth's idea of a solar set up is a good one to consider as well.

Is it possible for you to see an Egg Camper? Perhaps one is close to you. Jim Palmer may be able to put you in touch with an owner near your home. If you feel physically comfortable walking around and sitting in the camper - particularly compared to the Scamp and Casita, a final decision will be close at hand.
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Old 09-22-2010, 02:07 AM   #16
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Can anyone tell me if they can use their trailer in the winter using battery and propane only, or battery only without propane? I think that I would have access to electric 75% of the time and I'm leaning towards the Egg Camper. I could always add a catalytic heater later if needed.
We use ours in early spring and late fall with propane and battery only. We've woken up to frozen water outside while our propane gravity heater on pilot kept us warm inside. Last weekend while at the Niagara Falls meet, temps got pretty low Friday night. Some campers had troubles with the electricity from the park. We had troubles with the power converter not being able to handle the load of the heater and had to run an extra extension cord to the post outside to handle a small 1500W heater.

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Originally Posted by Ray N View Post
Propane used to be offered with the EggCamper, but I think it adds two or three thousand $ to the purchase price, and it just wasn't worth it for us because of where we camp.
And the cost of a good generator is about $1000

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Originally Posted by Raya L. View Post
I can stand up on the raised section of the floor in my Boler and not be that hunched over.
And I can stand srtaight up in the raised section of our boler with 4" of headroom left. Just goes to show you how we all have different needs.

For me, being tied to what Alf refers as the "current bush" is a matter of convenience. Camping untethered allows more freedom of choice. Especially if one is prepared for their needs. I'd estimate that at least 80% of the 135 trailers that made it to bolerama in Emily in 2009 were boondocking. I can quite imagine what it would be like if they all needed generators to make it through the weekend. That would be over 100 generators running at the same time.
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Old 09-22-2010, 04:38 AM   #17
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Smile One thing not mentioned

Something I didn't see mentioned in this thread is I understand some tunnels will not allow propane tanks This could be a major inconvenience.
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Old 09-22-2010, 08:18 AM   #18
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Insulation was mentoned earlier. I thought I read on the casita forum that the rat fur was the only insulation on a casita which has no R value. While scamp and eggcamper use reflectix. Anyone know if this is true of casita?
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Old 09-22-2010, 08:34 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Jim Norman View Post
Both the Casita and Scamp have single wall fiberglass covered with fabric for insulation. The Egg has 2 separate and distinct shells with insulation in between, a much better set up.
Insulation between the walls can be a good thing, or a really bad thing... if an undetected leak should develop.

Check out this posting by Penney and Mike, when they bought a double-hull Burro with insulation between: Go Slow When Falling in Love with Cute Trailers!
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Old 09-22-2010, 11:24 AM   #20
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Something I didn't see mentioned in this thread is I understand some tunnels will not allow propane tanks This could be a major inconvenience.
Roger,

There are some tunnels that don't allow propane tanks, so that is a consideration. One example is the pair of tunnels (I-95 and 895) that go under Baltimore harbor.

On the other hand, tunnels are expensive/engineered enough that they generally only exist where there is quite a bit of traffic. And where there is quite a bit of traffic there are generally trucks. And where there are trucks there are alternate routes. Going through Baltimore, for example, you would take I-695 and go over the Key bridge, which is about 2-3 miles longer, and not really much of an inconvenience.

In other places, such as Hampton Roads, where there are two tunnels and no bridges, you have to stop for inspection (just pull over into an on/off exit similar to a weigh station), but then you can go through with the propane/camper.

Now, I'm not saying there are no tunnels that would cause a problem - I'm sure there must be. And if there were one of those on my route from my house to everywhere, I would probably ditch the propane. But, I just wanted to post this to show that there are oftentimes relatively easy alternatives.

Raya
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Old 09-22-2010, 12:25 PM   #21
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I can't advise on comparisons of those three campers, but I agree with needing enough head-room to stand upright and having seats at the proper height so my feet are flat on the floor.

Also, IMO, the amount of insulation in a camper is not a big consideration. We had winter camped in our 1972 13' Scamp and were very warm and that vintage has almost no insulation. We used an oil-filled electric heater and found ourselves opening the windows and ceiling vent! The amount of space being heated is so small compared to the capacities of most heaters. Add people and water for cooking and washing and you'll probably want a little ventilation anyway to reduce inside humidity.
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Old 09-22-2010, 09:45 PM   #22
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"Both the Casita and Scamp have single wall fiberglass covered with fabric for insulation"

Actually in the case of Scamp it has reflectix covering the fiberglass for insulation and the fabric/rat fur covers that.
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Old 09-22-2010, 10:25 PM   #23
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I think that Scamp actually uses "Foil Ray" insulation, but it looks similar to Reflectix and probably functions nearly the same. That said, I don't see how they can possibly be getting the R-value they claim, considering that they have two layers stacked together and no air spaces to speak of.
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Old 09-22-2010, 11:52 PM   #24
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What every the type of foil insulation my Scamp has it does have space between the two layers of foil - kind of like a bunch of bubbles.
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Old 09-23-2010, 09:53 AM   #25
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Carol,

That's interesting, and perhaps I have to take back what I said. But when the discussion about foil type insulation and R-values occurred before, several of us went to look up the specs on the insulation manufacturer's site, and that's when we found out that adding a second layer adds only something very, very minimal unless there is a relatively good-sized air space. And the Scamp site showed just two layers stacked together (in their manual). (The air space between the bubbles doesn't count; there has to be air space between the sheets themselves - I forget the exact amount, but something like an inch.

I just couldn't imagine there being an inch gap in there and the cabinets and things still fitting. Plus, how do they hold the sheets apart? And they why do they show it as just a double layer on their site.

I'll find what I looked up before. I remember calculating the Scamp R-value at around 5 or less, but Scamp says 15. But let me get some real numbers and not recollections.

Edited to add: Here is a link to one of our past discussions that explains why R-15 cannot be calculated for a sandwich of fiberglass shell/foil layer/foil layer/rat fur. It's a bit tricky to find details on Foil Ray, but easier for Reflectix, and they do have the same philosophy/design. I would imagine R-value for the two to be very comparable if not exactly the same. Basically, it's more of a radiant barrier than an insulation, and air space on all sides is very important to its function.

Start at post #7 in this thread:

'69 Trails West Campster...questions!

Excerpt from above; sounds like the Scamp calculates to be around R-4 or so:

As they say, it really depends on the air space. Each layer is about a quarter inch thick and has an R-factor of about 1. Two layers thus has an R-factor of about 2. Add to that the R-factor of the glass and fleece and you get about 2.5 or 3...

I cannot copy from Reflectix's page, but they explain how it works here, and why air spaces on each side of the material are important to its function. They also explain why a "doubled up" second layer only gives an additional R-1.1 It's a pretty quick and easy read.

http://www.reflectixinc.com/basepage...atisanR-value?
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Old 09-23-2010, 10:33 AM   #26
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there's some info at Reflectix Inc. | About Reflective Technology | Performance Information I believe the bottom line is that to maximize the benefit, even that first layer needs some dead air space - like 3/4 of an inch to get a benefit from the reflective surface, otherwise that first layer will get you just R=1.1.
Quote:
why are Air Spaces Required (in every application)?
For either a reflective insulation or a radiant barrier, an air space of a minimum
thickness is required on the reflective side of the product. (Most Reflectix® products
are reflective (shiny) on both sides.) The reflective insulation benefit is derived from
the interaction of the highly reflective surface with the air space. If the reflective
surface is in contact with another building material, it becomes a condudtor
(transmitting the energy by conduction). An air space may be specified on one or both
sides of the product (always on a reflective side). Enclosed air spaces, when
instrudted, are required to provide the stated Rt-value.
What Scamp might be doing - and you'd have to check - is using 2" strips of the reflectix material as a furring strip to stand off the second layer and create that airspace. From the edge, it might look like two layers, but it's really one with some spacing. That is one of the recommended installation methods, and it does give you the reflective benefit.

Quote:
If You Install 2 Layers of a Reflective Insulation, Does the R-value Double?
with multiple layers of product and airspaces between each layer, enhanced
performance will be gained. If the product is simply “doubled” (with no air space
between the layers), a very minimal benefit is obtained (R-1.1 (per layer) for the
Reflective/Double Bubble product).

Quote:
what if There is No Air Space Present on Either Side of the Product?
No Air Space = No Reflective Insulation Benefit
(An R.-1.1 is provided from the product itself for the Reflective/Double Bubble
material.)
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Old 09-23-2010, 10:50 AM   #27
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Thanks, Matt, I could not get anything on their pages to "highlight" so that I could copy it over.

I also can't copy/paste from Scamp's Owner's Manual Document (downloadable .pdf on their website), but on Page 3, they describe using a "double layer" of "bubble foil sided insulation" "glued onto the roof and walls" after which "the headliner is glued onto the insulation" "R value rating is about 15."

So, it does not sound like they are using any air/strips (indeed this seems like it would make for "stripes" in the rat fur of different levels). The drawing clearly shows a double layer also (same page). No air space is shown. It's hard to see any way to figure it over R-4 or so. I wonder if they do not understand about how the double layer does not double R-value (although even then I don't see exactly how they get R-15).

That said, I don't build the Scamps, so I'm just going from the information I can find.

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Old 09-23-2010, 12:01 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Norman View Post
The owner of the Egg Camper, Jim Palmer is an aerospace engineer and is meticulous about his product. He feels pressurized propane is a liability. He provides a generator platform on the tongue and I have a new Yamaha 2000 so I think it's a good match. Both the Casita and Scamp have single wall fiberglass covered with fabric for insulation. The Egg has 2 separate and distinct shells with insulation in between, a much better set up. I'm trying to convince him to install the new acrylic dometic dual pane windows. All in all with the insulation little heat will be lost and once warm it should stay warm. The propane heaters eat battery juice so the Wave catalytic would be my choice to install.
It must be said that while the Eggcamper is a very fine camper, it is not better insulated than a Scamp, nor is the double wall construction inherently superior.
I like the Eggcamper but it is too large to be practical for my purposes.
Of the Larger fiberglass trailers, a real contender is the Oliver heritage version. They are presently on hiatus, waiting out the storm of recession by pursuing other endeavors. They are SPENDY though!
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