Problem rivet (Scamp) - Opinions for best fix wanted. - Fiberglass RV
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Old 09-30-2018, 02:16 PM   #1
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Name: Gordon
Trailer: 2015 Scamp (16 Std Layout 4) with '15 Toyota Sienna LE Tug
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Problem rivet (Scamp) - Opinions for best fix wanted.

Std layout four with side bath. It was built with one rivet holding the wall near the stove (trailer’s middle) at a slight angle. The hole in the bathroom wall is just a little higher than the hole in the shell and was probably drilled with the drill at an angle. Its not much, maybe about five degrees from horizontal.

This rivet has failed twice now (in three years), and today I replaced it with a size eight bolt with nylock nut. But now I wonder if this is best. As you can see from the photo of the second failed rivet, the rivet is bent in a way that looks like sheer force perpendicular to its length. Since the bolt will not pull loose like the rivets have, I now wonder if it will damage the fiberglass.

Options include:
  • Go back to using a rivet and let it fail under stress.
  • Leave the bolt and see what happens.
  • Either of the above, and also add a rivet about a foot above to help hold the bathroom wall in place.
  • Patch the holes that are not lined up and drill a new hole.

Thoughts?
Attached Thumbnails
BathroomRivet-Bent.jpg  
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Old 09-30-2018, 02:24 PM   #2
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Leave the threaded bolt in. Rivets are only used because they are cheap and quick to install. You're always ahead with real stainless steel threaded fasteners. And don't buy into that baloney some people who don't know better will tell you that the rivets are designed to part to protect the fiberglass from cracking. That's an outright fabrication with no basis in truth. It is merely what the manufacturer's and the salesmen will tell you to "justify" why they use inferior fastening equipment. I worked on boats for probably 50 years, and boat manufacturer use stainless steel threaded fasteners for anything and everything on fiberglass boats, and they have been for over 60 years. Boats take a heck of a lot more pounding, bouncing, slamming, torquing, etc. than any travel trailer will ever see, and they have always worked just fine. The rivet thing is all about cheap and quick, nothing more.
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Old 09-30-2018, 02:45 PM   #3
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So you don't think the holes will grow?

My concern is that it appears the two layers of fiberglass (the shell and the bathroom wall flange) are sliding a little bit over each other, and enough to deform the rivet. If thats the case then maybe the bolt will chisel away a little at the hole while traveling? It actually appears that some of that has happened and the hole is larger. But I did not photograph it before putting the bolt in. As much as I hate making holes, I think that an additional rivet (or bolt) at an attachment point on the same wall might be best. On the other hand, I can leave it as it is now, and if the sheer forces and bolt cause a problem, we can deal with that repair if it happens, when it happens.
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Old 09-30-2018, 02:52 PM   #4
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I had to replace a rivet on our casita that required someone inside to lift up on the stove hood/cabinet while pushing it outwards too, to get the holes to line up so I could put the rivet in from outside. the original lasted 10 years, so I figure the replacement probably will, too.
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Old 09-30-2018, 03:10 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gordon2 View Post
So you don't think the holes will grow?

My concern is that it appears the two layers of fiberglass (the shell and the bathroom wall flange) are sliding a little bit over each other, and enough to deform the rivet. If thats the case then maybe the bolt will chisel away a little at the hole while traveling? It actually appears that some of that has happened and the hole is larger. But I did not photograph it before putting the bolt in. As much as I hate making holes, I think that an additional rivet (or bolt) at an attachment point on the same wall might be best. On the other hand, I can leave it as it is now, and if the sheer forces and bolt cause a problem, we can deal with that repair if it happens, when it happens.
Replace all of the rivets that hold the thing in with SS screws and elastic stop nuts. Snug them up and enjoy.
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Old 09-30-2018, 03:11 PM   #6
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Trim the rivets that are too long. Does this rivet use the acorn nut on the end?
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Old 09-30-2018, 03:26 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevebaz View Post
Trim the rivets that are too long.
Not an issue.


Quote:
Originally Posted by stevebaz View Post
Does this rivet use the acorn nut on the end?
The first one did, for the second rivet (and the current bolt) I used a washer that was wider than the Acorn nut (to spread the load).
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Old 09-30-2018, 03:41 PM   #8
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speaking of rivets... when I repaired that last rivet on our Casita, the rivet didn't break off flush with the head, it broke off with like 1/2" or more of the shaft sticking out... because it was in one of those plastic cups for holding the cap, I couldn't really cut it off flush with any of my wire cutters, although I did cut off enough that the cap fit over it.

any suggestions ? I toyed with digging out my dremel and going to town on it with a small grinding stone...
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Old 09-30-2018, 03:51 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz View Post
... the rivet didn't break off flush with the head, it broke off with like 1/2" or more of the shaft sticking out... ....
Do you mean the mandrel? If so can't you just bend it back and forth (with needle nose pliers) until it breaks off from metal fatigue?
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Old 09-30-2018, 04:12 PM   #10
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You appear to be getting some sheer force from the two panels moving. That would cause a larger hole and a deformed rivet such as your picture.

Bolt or rivet if there is shear force or sliding I would expect the hole to get bigger. Would be good if you could determine why that bath panel is sliding around. Perhaps it is supposed to have some sort of adhesive caulk to help hold it or has a failed or missing fastener someplace less obvious.

Might even be worth a call to scamp to ask. I would not be surprised if those two panels are not supposed to slide around.

On the whole rivet vs bolt thing manufacturing advantages are important, and manufactures seldom waste large amount of money, weight, or time to build it more expensively and make it stronger than use requires. Bolts get used on boats, rivets have been used on skyscrapers and many FGRV's. Clearly either bolt or rivet can and does do the job of fastening.

Just doesn't seem like the single failed fastener is the cause as much as a symptom of some issue. Rivets shouldn't get shear bending like that. Bolt may be too thick or heavy to bend but the force is still there and I don't think that is right.

Just an opinion - worth what you paid for it.
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Old 09-30-2018, 04:40 PM   #11
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All you have to do is look at that bent rivet to see the issue that cause the hole to enlarge. It did not get pulled properly when it was installed. I have seen that condition on blind rivets before, it happens when the installer chooses a rivet that is too long for the the thickness of the materials. If it had expanded properly when installed it would have pulled the materials together tightly and helped prevent the sideways motions that eventually broke down the edges of the fiberglass enlarging the hole.


The other year I helped a woman with her vintage Boler issues. I saw several instances where the installers used overly long rivets that did not get properly expanded and they were all bent crooked. Not all the companies use experienced, skilled, labor for assembly work. Sometimes that has to do with the location of the business as there might not be any such persons available.


Your fix with a bolt and nut is OK. A next size larger rivet would also be OK. In both instances the length has to be just right.
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Old 09-30-2018, 04:43 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerDat View Post
You appear to be getting some sheer force from the two panels moving. That would cause a larger hole and a deformed rivet such as your picture.

Bolt or rivet if there is shear force or sliding I would expect the hole to get bigger. Would be good if you could determine why that bath panel is sliding around. Perhaps it is supposed to have some sort of adhesive caulk to help hold it or has a failed or missing fastener someplace less obvious.

Might even be worth a call to scamp to ask. I would not be surprised if those two panels are not supposed to slide around.

On the whole rivet vs bolt thing manufacturing advantages are important, and manufactures seldom waste large amount of money, weight, or time to build it more expensively and make it stronger than use requires. Bolts get used on boats, rivets have been used on skyscrapers and many FGRV's. Clearly either bolt or rivet can and does do the job of fastening.

Just doesn't seem like the single failed fastener is the cause as much as a symptom of some issue. Rivets shouldn't get shear bending like that. Bolt may be too thick or heavy to bend but the force is still there and I don't think that is right.

Just an opinion - worth what you paid for it.
Indeed your thoughts are my thoughts.

But I see no evidence of the panels sliding by looking at the other rivets and attachment points. The only other evidence is a problem I have keeping caulk on the same section on the inside of the bath / shower. But thats not structural, its only to keep shower water contained. The only problem rivet is the one that was put in a little crooked.

For now I am going to leave the bolt in and keep and eye on it.
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Old 09-30-2018, 05:07 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by k corbin View Post
Take a look at it from an engineering perspective in regards to constraint of movement. It takes 3 points of attachment to constrain the movement of two object connect to each other. One of those constraints will be the pulling force of the rivet. But you also have to prevent rotation around that single point. So that makes the solution easier to understand. You need to add another rivet. That will give you the essential three points of constraint needed to prevent the excess of movement that is causing the hole to enlarge.
The entire wall is attached with multiple rivets and it is not rotating. I thought about adding a rivet but there is one already about 14 inches higher, and it has appears fine.

Assuming the rest of the wall is locked tight to the body, then the one rivet that is at an angle has constant force on it. In this case the rivet goes up at a slight angle, from the outside to the inside of the camper. So the force is at the top of the inner wall's hole and bottom of the hole in the shell. This force is trying to get the holes to line up and it is amplified when the trailer bounces down the road. That causes the rivet to bend and eventual pull out.

At least that is a theory of mine. But I am not a structural engineer and did not explain that very well.

And if that is right then this will cause the hole to become larger as the bolt (or rivet) wears away at the fiberglass. But how much is another question. My guess is that the angle is not so much that the hole will get much larger. If the hole gets big enough to loosen the bolt, create a leak, etc, then I will patch the glass and drill a straight hole.

Thanks for the thoughts!
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Old 09-30-2018, 08:03 PM   #14
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I would also leave the nut and bolt in place and watch how it holds up.

Just a note, in general: the nut and bolt have to be tight enough for any forces between the two parts to be transmitted directly by intimate contact and friction. The bolts, or those rivets in this case, should be loaded in tension only. If there is any movement whatsoever on that interface, it is only a matter of time before it fails.
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Old 09-30-2018, 08:17 PM   #15
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If the rivet has failed three times it is time to take care of the problem.
Something has to be moving to do that and the repeated repairs will take their toll.
If it were me I would replace all of the fasteners holding whatever this piece in with SS screws and elastic nuts along with washers to spread the load.
The covering on the inside keeps you from being able to easily clamp the parts together so that they won't work in respect to each other. The Pop rivets won't do that very well under the best of circumstances.
Pop rivets work by expanding the body into engagement with the pulling of the mandrel or "nail" through the center of the rivet.
While there is some clamping due to the travel of the mandrel head down the rivet it is relatively minor. The rivet holds because of the swelling if the body filling the hole it is mounted in.
After a few times being replaced and the relative movement the holes have probably enlarged and elongated and the rivet is not going to do it's job very well at all.
The screw and nut will clamp and should be chosen to fill the hole completely.
If you were to use flat head screws and washers on the outside and nuts with washers on the inside and replace all of them you would be done with this problem.
If you don't like the look of the stainless on the outside take some white enamel and a small brush and pain them.
Here is a picture of my much modified Scamp with ALL screws and no pop rivets except for those holding the belly band on.
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Old 10-01-2018, 12:03 PM   #16
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THe Source of the Problem

Realize that trailers are not subject to stress analysis like cars and aircraft are required to do by law. Anything goes that gets the product out the door and the customer be damned.

Your problem is, not with the fasteners. but with the frame. It is bending under load and transmitting those loads to the shell which then deforms and pops fasteners. You must fit your trailer with a stronger frame, and then replace the fasteners, like this one:
https://youtu.be/zkfaMf4JCUg
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Old 10-01-2018, 12:48 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen_Albers View Post
...
...You must fit your trailer with a stronger frame, and then replace the fasteners, ..
Ahh thanks for the advice.. but if I have to replace the frame and all the fasteners on a three year old trailer, then I am not keeping the trailer at all.
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Old 10-01-2018, 12:50 PM   #18
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We started replacing broken rivets, and also rivets with deteriorated snap caps, with 1/4 x 20 stainless steel screws (various lengths) and nylock nuts starting almost 8 years and 100,000 miles ago on our used Scamp 16. They are all holding up well.
Pro-Dec is an online company that sells the plastic washers designed for the 1/4" screws to which the Snap caps adhere to.
I suspect that the acorn nut used for decorative purposes might actually cause the rivet mandrel to snap prematurely since the rivet can only expand so much inside that acorn nut and if it reaches maximum expansion inside the acorn nut then it may snap before pulling the pieces tightly together.
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Old 10-01-2018, 02:11 PM   #19
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Gordon, you may or may not have seen my post on this very issue with my rivets looking almost IDENTICAL to yours. Anyway, I've switch the closet rivets out for S/S bolts and locknuts and now going on 5 yrs have not had ONE issue with cracking nor these bolts loosening none what so ever!

If I EVER get another FG trailer the rivets on the Scamp will be the "show stopper" for them.

Here's a link to my fix.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/503516...57633366995497
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Old 10-01-2018, 04:07 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Darral T. View Post
Gordon, you may or may not have seen my post on this very issue with my rivets looking almost IDENTICAL to yours. Anyway, I've switch the closet rivets out for S/S bolts and locknuts and now going on 5 yrs have not had ONE issue with cracking nor these bolts loosening none what so ever! ..
Indeed I have no doubt that bolts are a fine substitute for rivets and sometimes (or always) even superior. My only concern with my trailer is the holes that are not lined up. But they are not far off and my rivet does look like the one in your photo so thats encouraging. I've also suspect that a loose rivet does the most damage.. and the photo of your acorn nut cutting in to the fiberglass looks like a case of that happening. I suspect that if the rivet had stayed tight, you would not see that damage.
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