Refrigerator solution while on the road

[gordon2]

Originally Posted by Darral T.

I think he mentioned "Motor Homes" when it comes to the gen.....

But I do have a question Gordy... I've never used a "fan" in my 1.9. One, I dont have the room...it's usually packed...lol. But I was wondering if it would even help in the 1.9 since it's so small. We've never had an issue...other than a little "ice" developing in some of the drinks.

My understanding is that the fridge works BEST when packed nearly full but not so full, and in a way, that allows air to circulate freely around the cooling fins and food. (A nearly empty fridge will warm faster).

The fan helps the air circulate, esp. on the fins (not to be confused with fans sometimes used to move air over the coils on the OUTSIDE of the unit, esp with rigs that have the exhaust on the side instead of the roof).

The fan, and packing in a way that air can move, might help you keep things more evenly chilled, but sounds like yours in a non-issue.

[Darral T.]

Trailer Life has some good videos. Speaking of how long it takes to heat up after shutting off, they do a live test here and you can see it. This looks like about a 4 cf fridge? I calculated 6 hrs and 9 deg. Alot different that 6-8 hours with 4 Deg! Depends on ambient temps obviously.

RV Driving with a Refrigerator

Originally Posted by gordon2

Also his statement about the fridge manufacture's claims of how long the fridge will stay cold when off gave me pause. Really? 6-8 hours with no more than 4 degree increase in temp? Reality for me is much different and more like two hours with a five degree increase, and then a long time to reverse the uptick in temp and get it going lower again. At least in summer.

[Glenn Baglo]

Originally Posted by Darral T.

I'll tell you what it says Glenn.... if you're out in the open and want to take a chance on blowing yourself up, so be it. But you're not going to do it in a tunnel and take everyone around with you!

Jim Bennett wrote to every province's Ministry of Transport to see if any had a regulation against running a fridge on propane, on the road. None had such a regulation.

You are more likely to die from food poisoning than from your trailer exploding because the fridge is running on propane.

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by Darral T.

I'll tell you what it says Glenn.... if you're out in the open and want to take a chance on blowing yourself up, so be it. But you're not going to do it in a tunnel and take everyone around with you!

So let me get this straight.

You are carrying a gas filled motor such as that of your generator unprotected in the back of your truck along with plastic gas cans needed to fuel it also unprotected in the back of your truck?

Do you not think that is not also putting everyone in the tunnel at risk should someone slam into the bed of your truck?

Yes people need to turn off propane appliances when entering enclosed spaces - such as a ferry & only a FEW tunnels in N/A. We have a number of tunnels around the city some are fairly long and none require the propane to be turned off.

The issue is enclosed spaces, fires and inadequate ventilation - some tunnels are better ventilated than others and they have more/better emergency access points.

The BIG concern on the ferry is FIRE. Coming from the marine industry I can say first hand that a fire on a ship while at sea is not a good thing. So anything that can logistically be done to minimize the risk of fire or the fuelling of a fire is prohibited regardless of its actual risk level. It is also the reason one is not suppose to even start their car while the ferry is still moving.

If running an RV fridge on propane while traveling was truly a BIG safety issue and people were being put at risk or killed due to it. it would have been outlawed long ago . Yet it has not been. Your a smart guy, Want to guess why that might be?

The fact is that over the last 10 years or more an increasing number of large RV manufactures are only offering 2 way fridges in their trailers. The reason for that is newer fridges have been designed to run far more safely on propane than the 3 way fridges made 20 plus years ago. So with the ever increasing number of folks pulling trailers running propane fridges how come we have not heard about an increase in the number of trailers catching fire or blowing up due to it? Any guesses?

For safety reasons I choose never to run the old fridge in my old Scamp on propane while traveling either. But I do choose to run the brand new fridge in my current trailer on propane with little worry.

[Darral T.]

You guys are fussing at me like I wrote the rules. I didnt. Regardless of statistics, we all know the old "argument" will NEVER die.

NOW, with that said, I did find an interesting article. I copied this excerpt about Texas. What I found MOST surprising is the rule on "LPG operated vehicles" (the very last line in red)!! Explain THAT to me? We do use propane forklifts here. AND, after this article is one on the difference between propane and LPG sheesh!! Here's the first article:

Texas
Size limitations: Height, 14'; Width, 8'6"; Trailer length, not stated'; Motorhome length, 45'; Combined length, 65'.
Required Equipment: Safety chain, breakaway switch required on trailers over 3,000 pounds, flares or reflective signs, brakes on trailers with unladen weight of 4500 pounds.
Triple towing is permitted if combined length does not exceed 65'. Passengers are permitted to ride in pickup camper only. Overnight parking is as posted in state rest areas with a 24 hour limit.
LP Gas is restricted on the Washburn Tunnel between Pasadena and Galena Park on the Houston Ship Channel. Maximum of two 7 1/2 gallon containers (30 pounds gas each) or one 10-gallon container (40 pounds of gas) of DOT (ICC) approved type, with shutoff valve at discharge opening. Valve must be closed when in tunnel. LP gas as vehicle fuel is prohibited.

PROPANE/LPG USES:

• LP and propane cannot be mixed in any appliance. If a gas stove requires propane in vapor form for operation, LP cannot be substituted. Likewise, a gas grill manufactured for LP cannot use propane vapor. Propane in its two different forms are not compatible.

I didnt realize this until this article!

[Glenn Baglo]

Sheesh! Texas allows passengers to ride in a pickup camper?
Wouldn't want to pick through the remains, looking for my kids, in the event of even a minor accident.
Anyway, if you buy a BBQ you have to specify LPG or propane. They are not the same.

[Mr Lynn]

Carol, the issue in the video that Darral posted was not about safety of normal use; it was about the hazard that flowing propane can present in the event of an untoward event: a road obstruction that damages a propane line, or a crash that breaks a line or joint. The fire-safety guy was pointing out that in such circumstances you increase your risk of fire and/or explosion, perhaps markedly so.

I rather doubt that even the most recent propane appliances and line routing have completely obviated this risk. So unless you are entirely confident your camper will never be involved an accident, it makes sense to me to eliminate that risk, especially since it's one you don't need to take.

/Mr Lynn

[Glenn Baglo]

Towing a trailer is inherently more dangerous than not towing. I'd just stay home.

[swenny]

A friend of my was towing his TADA trailer recently purchased that had been sitting on a dealer lot for a couple of years. On his way out to Colorado from St. Louis he blew out his driver side trailer tire while traveling. The tire came completely apart............exploded through his wheel well and destroyed much of the cabinetry inside near that well. The destruction include the gas lines located in that spot.

Fortunately for him he was traveling with the tanks turned off. No disaster but he was faced with a big repair bill.

Something to think about

[Darral T.]

Thanks Swenny (Tim) for that post. None of us thinks things like this can happen to US!

Originally Posted by swenny

A friend of my was towing his TADA trailer recently purchased that had been sitting on a dealer lot for a couple of years. On his way out to Colorado from St. Louis he blew out his driver side trailer tire while traveling. The tire came completely apart............exploded through his wheel well and destroyed much of the cabinetry inside near that well. The destruction include the gas lines located in that spot.

Fortunately for him he was traveling with the tanks turned off. No disaster but he was faced with a big repair bill.

Something to think about

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by Mr Lynn

Carol, the issue in the video that Darral posted was not about safety of normal use; it was about the hazard that flowing propane can present in the event of an untoward event: a road obstruction that damages a propane line, or a crash that breaks a line or joint. The fire-safety guy was pointing out that in such circumstances you increase your risk of fire and/or explosion, perhaps markedly so.

Mr. Lynn I do understand what the fire safety guy was saying BUT the reality is that you face the same risk that every time you start your car!

Gas is an equally flammable liquid. If a gas line ruptures due to age or someone crashing into you you face the same risk of fire - the moment the gas starts to leak over a hot engine or muffler system. It happens multiple times a day in NA & people are killed daily as a result. So should we all stop driving our cars?

The simple facts are that if running a propane fridge in every tunnel was putting people at great risk it would be banned in every tunnel. It is not. In fact the last time this topic came up people posted known tunnels that prohibited the use of propane and the numbers listed were in fact VERY small compared to how many tunnels there are in NA. There are thousands of tunnels in NA that allow propane to be used in them. Apparently the folks responsible for keeping us all safe on our highways on both sides of the border do not see it as a big a risk as some folks here appear to do.

I suspect that statistically we are being put at risk to a far greater extent by simple starting our cars each day or crossing the street.

its up to each of us to decide what level of risk we are comfortable taking with our own safety.

What I object to is the suggestion by some that those who do choose to run their fridge on propane are putting the rest of the world at unreasonable level of risk.

[Carl V]

Carol, I was about to post the same.

I personnally can live with that risk.

Any tow vehicle has a gas tank that's basically a tin can simply hung under your vehicle that contains a highly flammable and volatile liquid. There are electricals in the tank (fuel pump, level sensor, etc) so think Apollo 13. There's a fuel line, usually made of aluminium and somewhat exposed, that runs under your vehicle from that tank to the front of your vehicle, and that line is pressurized to maybe 60-80 psi. Not too far from the gas line is your exhaust line, and your red-hot exhaust manifold and catalytic converter, and a 600 CCA battery.
Get involved in an accident, and that tin can gets crushed, fuel line breaks, with fuel spraying everywhere and leaking down your neck, and you can't open the damn door.
How safe is that? Still, nobody seems too concerned about that.

I don't think that having a low pressure LP system and in use in a travel trailer poses much more risk.
To each his own, but I always travel with the fridge on LP, but I shut it off before entering gas stations, just common sense.

[Joe Romas]

Threads on this subject always brings out half truths and down right inaccurate information generating fear in people's minds.

IF your trailer's rubber lines to the tanks have plastic knobs you can cut the hose and the gas flow will stop instantly because they have "excess flow valves" in them that detects a large flow and shuts the gas off. Same goes for a rupture in any other of the gas lines.

If your rubber lines don't have the newer plastic knobs it's long past time to replace them.

NOTE: Brian has informed me the plastic knobs come in differing colors that indicate the flow rate before shutting.

So I have replaced "Green knob" with "Plastic knob"

That's why newer appliances say to turn on the gas slowly...
Turn it on too fast and the excess flow valve shuts the flow off.

For those interested do a search.

Also try turning the tank on with no hose attached and see what happens.
This statement was to show there is a safety device in the OPD valves on the tanks too.



Joe

[The Minimalist]

Originally Posted by gordon2

Actually it says something about the safety of tunnels, but tunnel safety is another thread for another day.

There are a couple of other interpretations possible. First, the laws are behind the times and were written before safety shut off valves were required in LP tanks. More likely however is, that with all the different RVs, it is easier to make sure all the flames are out if the tank is turned off.

If there is an accident in the tunnel and there is a fuel spill, they don't want any flames that could set it off, just as you should turn of the refer before entering a station for fuel.

[TomandCallie]

I just asked CDOT (Colorado) about tunnel restrictions re: propane being on for fridge. Here is the response:

Tom - there are no restrictions about a camper size fridge and propane tank. We have hundreds of motor homes and campers moving through the tunnel everyday and I would guess most, if not all, are run on propane.

We only have restrictions on hazardous materials for semis. You should be good to go. Thanks for writing and asking.

?Susan Jacobs
Customer Service Representative
??Colorado Department of Transportation
Region 3
P 970.384.3335 | F 970.947.5133
202 Centennial Drive, Glenwood Springs, CO 81601

[SilverGhost]

The argument for or against use of gas in transit it about acceptable risks. Some wish to take them and some don't. The newer and more modern appliances remove some of the risk that resulted in the recommendation not to use propane while in transit.

But as far as regulation, that is only to prevent the lowest common denominator. IE: everybody has to turn their propane off in tunnels because there is going to be that one RV or trailer that has never been serviced and good ole boy has "fixed" it at home several times. That small leak is no big deal until the car in front of you breaks down in the tunnel and you are stuck for an hour. Then some twit has to light up 'cause he can't go more then 2 hours without sucking down a pack of cigs. BOOM!

But this is all exaggerated to make a point. 99% of the time it's no big deal and everything is fine. The recommendation is for that 1% of the time, in perfect conditions, because of the catastrophic results.

Jason

[Joe Romas]

The only time I've had to turn off the propane in a tunnel was in the Chesapeake Bay tunnel that goes down and under the bay.

[Backwater Bill]

Last year a type C caught fire in Tunnel Louis-Hippolyte-La Fontaine in Montreal. Regulations there restrict the amount of propane in the tunnel to two 45 l tanks but it was carrying more than twice that amount. The fire was initiated by an engine problem not a running refrigerator. There's a picture and a translated article in the link.
https://goo.gl/O3xPZQ

A standard 20lb 5g tank holds about 18 l. The type C had the equivalent of 11 tanks on board. I think it had been was converted to a Chip wagon which explains the excessive amount of propane.

[Carl V]

It was a class C motorhome pulling a chip wagon or shack or whatever you want to call this. The fire caught in the wagon, there was two 100lbs propane tanks in it.
This is illegal to begin with.
The law for this tunnel allows 2 gas containers, up to 40lbs each. Now if you carry one small disposable 1lb gas bottle, that counts for 1 container. If you have 3 of these, you are illegal. If you have only one tank, larger than 40lbs, you're illegal (large motorhomes with large LP tanks are not allowed).

There is nothing is the law about closing the tank valves, and nobody is really sure if an appliance like a fridge can be left running or not. The law is not very clear on that topic, you speak with police officers, people at the government, or FQCC (Quebec camping Federation) reps and you always get different answers. Some say you can, some say it's totally illegal, and you ask again the next time and get a different answer. The truth is the law is poorly written and even law enforcement isn't really sure how to interpret it.

The law outlaws "devices producing an open flame" (my translation, this law is written in french).

Not too long ago, in an effort to clarify what constitues an "open flame", the FQCC sought advise from the provincial DOT, and then issued a document stating that according to the DOT, an RV fridge in use DOES NOT constitute an "open flame" device. My understanding was that in a fridge, the burner is enclosed in a metal box and not considered "in the open". Now I have no idea what kind of device would then be considered as having an "open flame", but at that point this made crossing that tunnel with an RV fridge in use perfectly legal.

Then this accident happened last year. And in the wake of all the media coverage of that accident, the document issued by the FQCC explaining that running fridges were legal kinda disappeared and can't be found anymore... And many interviews with law enforcement or DOT people mentioned that "all pilot flames" should be turned off before entering the tunnel. Now again in many forums the question surfaced: is it legal to use gas refrigerators or not? I expected maybe the government will finally make it clear, be we haven't heard anything yet. So the usual advise is to turn the fridge off before entering the tunnel, but then nobody is really there to check if you did, and many RVs are crossing that tunnel every day, many of them with their fridges running I guess.

[Yellow Boler]

Originally Posted by Mr Lynn

I thought it was pretty cool (as it were) to have a three-way 'fridge, but now I'm beginning to wonder what the point of having 12V capability is. On shore power, you naturally run the 'fridge on AC. When boondocking, off shore power, propane is quite efficient, while running the 'fridge on 12v will quickly deplete your trailer battery. When traveling, many say the alternators on your tow vehicles can't keep the trailer battery(ies) charged and also run the 'fridge. I haven't tried it yet with our Expedition, as our trips have been short.

So when do you use the 12V?

As for running the 'fridge on propane when traveling, the PO of our Casita told me he did it. But many say it is not safe, and I am inclined to think they're right (without any hard evidence).

/Mr Lynn

If you have solar panels 12v works good.