Yet another rivet question - Page 3 - Fiberglass RV


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Old 08-08-2016, 10:42 PM   #29
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Name: Ginny
Trailer: '09 Scamp 13' w/ Bath
Oklahoma
Posts: 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carol H View Post
I think you will find that most of the locations where their are rivets behind the rat fur it is down low on the trailer and usually used to fasten items such as your city water, electrical inlet etc. In those cases there is already going to be a cut out in the rat fur for the outlet. As others have said in those situation its not a big deal if the rivet or two falls down behind the rat fur. Or if you wanted you could cut a slice into the rat fur and pull the rat fur back a bit a little then just spray the rat fur with an adhesive to close it back up once finished. Never going to notice it behind cabinets.
Carol,
This makes a lot of sense. Thank you for helping me quantify the issue! Nice to know I have a relatively simple solution, and it won't be a TON of rat fur hidden rivets.
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Old 08-09-2016, 04:56 AM   #30
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Name: Dave
Trailer: 2010 Casita 17 Spirit Deluxe
Wisconsin
Posts: 88
OK, has this question been answered on rivets yet? The far left rivet above the fridge in our Casita has a hole that was drilled on a harsh angle. The new rivet head barley reaches so a new acorn nut has little chance of biting well even with the largest size rivet. Do I put a machine screw in the hole? I would have to drill hole out to 1/4" for the nut size and I hesitate to do that.
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Old 08-09-2016, 07:56 AM   #31
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Name: Gordon
Trailer: Scamp (16 Std Layout 4) with '15 Toyota Sienna LE Tug
North Carolina
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vtec View Post
OK, has this question been answered on rivets yet? The far left rivet above the fridge in our Casita has a hole that was drilled on a harsh angle. The new rivet head barley reaches so a new acorn nut has little chance of biting well even with the largest size rivet. Do I put a machine screw in the hole? I would have to drill hole out to 1/4" for the nut size and I hesitate to do that.
Wow that sounds just like what I am dealing with, except is a different location. If my rivet (with washer instead of acorn nut) does not hold I plan to try and find a slightly longer rivet (from some source other than Scamp I guess). A bolt (not a screw) will be the last resort for me.

In my case the angle might not be called harsh but the holes on the shell and bathroom wall sure don't line up. Maybe they did when the rig was built but the bathroom has "settled." If the angle was bad enough I guess I would seal it up and drill a new straight hole nearby and rivet it there.
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Old 08-09-2016, 08:31 AM   #32
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Name: Darral
Trailer: Scamp Standard 13' 2010
Tennessee
Posts: 1,163
Ok...I decided to weigh in on the subject since I've had to deal with my share of goofy rivets! The worst failure I've had on my Scamp was the closet rivets that anchor it to the roof. I came through some heavy rain on the way home from the Smokey Mts. When I got home and was cleaning up, well....you'll see the picture that I got showing the "black" around the acorn nut. The rivet was aluminum and I knew INSTANTLY where that was coming from by the black residue- alum. mixed with water. A link to my pictures in Flickr are below...several of them..the problem and fix.

Some will argue that my fix is NOT the best way, I argue that it IS the best way and I've not had ONE problem with it going on 4 yrs after the fix and CERTAINLY no more leaks!

The pics at the bottom on my Flickr may be a bit confusing as I show some "awning" mounting bolts ALSO...which were installed by SCAMP. Hmmm. That awning is HEAVY and constantly pulling on the Scamp as it bounces or what ever- not a minute's problem with the bolts!

One problem to consider with these rivets, they're sandwiching RAT FUR between the joints!!! What happens to the rat fur (or any other cloth/upholstery) over time???? It compresses!!

So the crooked rivet in the photo I think may have happened because it worked loose then allowed the closet to shift around while on the road- bumps etc. and caused this.

Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Any questions or comments, just fire away....oh... and no... I was NOT about to go the "acorn" nut route again and NOBODY has noticed these are "nyloc" locknuts on my bolts and not acorn nuts..or at least they havent called my hand on it...they're just not that noticeable.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/503516...57633366995497
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Old 08-09-2016, 08:37 AM   #33
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Name: Ginny
Trailer: '09 Scamp 13' w/ Bath
Oklahoma
Posts: 97
Darral,
For the 1 rivet failure I have had, it was in exactly the same spot. Where the closet connects to the roof. I like your solution. I have a fix on it for now, but will probably replace with your idea this fall, something sturdier.

(I'll hit you up for more details when I get to that point).
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Old 08-09-2016, 09:28 AM   #34
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Name: Gordon
Trailer: Scamp (16 Std Layout 4) with '15 Toyota Sienna LE Tug
North Carolina
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darral T. View Post
Ok...I decided to weigh in on the subject since I've had to deal with my share of goofy rivets! The worst failure I've had on my Scamp was the closet rivets that anchor it to the roof. I came through some heavy rain on the way home from the Smokey Mts. When I got home and was cleaning up, well....you'll see the picture that I got showing the "black" around the acorn nut. ...
Thanks for adding your experiences.

Yes, I get that black powder around many of my fasteners.

But now for something that might be particularly enlightening...

Shortly after picking up my new Scamp from the factory in September 2015, I noticed that the acorn nut on the fastener holding the fridge/microwave cabinet to the roof was loose. I think this is the same location in discussion above and it is shown on the below photo. Upon closer inspection I found that it was not a rivet at all but a bolt (see photo of threads below). And it came from the factory that way. I have never heard of Scamp using bolts instead of rivets and now I have to wonder if this was a onetime fix for some problem or is it now their standard practice for this apparently high stress location.

The bolt appears to be stainless steel but I cannot say for sure. There does not appear to be any extra washers or anything to spread out the load on the fiberglass. I am not sure, but I don't think this bolt passes through the part of the roof that if reinforced. But perhaps I can tell better after I remove the bolt... see, Scamp cut out a small corner of the fridge roof exhaust vent for this bolt and this is an area where water will sometimes pool when the trailer is level or close to level. In below photo I have removed the snap cap to find it has a Hex/Allen wrench head. So far it does not seem to leak but since the acorn nut is loose and the sealant looks poor for the roof fridge vent, I will be pulling it and redoing it the same time I pull out the now very leaky VanAir bathroom roof powered vent. I will probably stick with the acorn nut but add a lock washer. If only we could get a day where we are not under a flood watch since I need to do this work outdoors!
Attached Thumbnails
FridgeRoofBolt1.jpg   FridgeRoofBolt2.jpg  

FridgeRoofBolt3.jpg  
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Old 08-09-2016, 09:30 AM   #35
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Name: Gordon
Trailer: Scamp (16 Std Layout 4) with '15 Toyota Sienna LE Tug
North Carolina
Posts: 1,308
PS, another way to use a straight ladder on a Scamp without damaging the gel-coat:
Attached Thumbnails
P6160377.JPG  
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Old 08-09-2016, 09:40 AM   #36
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Name: Darral
Trailer: Scamp Standard 13' 2010
Tennessee
Posts: 1,163
AHHHH.... after all the "blasting" I took for posting this fix one time, Scamp has gone to the same thing! Yes, definitely a bolt. I dont recall if I mention or not in my fix pics on Flickr, but I did use stainless steel bolts! Dont EVEN think about replacing any critical fasteners like that will STEEL that will rust!!

Gordon, if I may suggest, DITCH the acorn nuts and go with a lock nut. They make two different types- one like I use a "nyloc" nut (wont rust). And they make a "top lock" nut. It's "indented" so that when it screws on a bolt, it presses hard on the threads. But I think my nyloc nuts greatly resemble the "acorn" nuts - shape-wise. Plus, again, the lock mechanism is nylon. IF anyone goes another style, I'd make sure they're all stainless. I noticed in my Flickr pics where I mention that Scamp did NOT use stainless to hold my awning on. So far so good...as long as it doesnt work loose and let water/condensation start getting through.
EDIT: FWIW, I did add flat washers to help distribute the hold pressure on the nut. May not be necessary but I like'm.

One other thing I had forgotten and show in my pics, Scamp DID NOT seal the top rivet on the closet and basically had a "water hole" into my Scamp. Folks I do not understand some things from manufacturers. But again, from the looks of Gordon's post, they HAVE changed that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gordon2 View Post
PS, another way to use a straight ladder on a Scamp without damaging the gel-coat:
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Old 08-09-2016, 09:49 AM   #37
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Name: Gordon
Trailer: Scamp (16 Std Layout 4) with '15 Toyota Sienna LE Tug
North Carolina
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darral T. View Post
AHHHH.... after all the "blasting" I took for posting this fix one time, Scamp has gone to the same thing! ..
I think we should see more than one bolt to assume is it standard Scamp practice. Anyone know someone in the factory well enough to get verification?

By the way, the other side of the cabinet to roof connection might be the same. I can't tell and I am not yet willing to mess with it since it is secure and tight.

As for the nylock.. I do think that is best. A lock washer would require constant pressure on the nut to hold whereas a nylock nut could be tight enough to hold the cabinet in place and stay in place on the bolt with less chance of being so tight that it damages the fiberglass. Its just the appearance I would like to avoid, but function trumps appearance every time.
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Old 08-09-2016, 10:14 AM   #38
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Name: Darral
Trailer: Scamp Standard 13' 2010
Tennessee
Posts: 1,163
I think I mistook the size of your Scamp (16) for the year! So what year model is your Scamp?

EDIT: Just spoke with Micah @ Scamp in "Service". Not sure if this is the Micah - son of Kent Eveland the owner or not- doesnt matter to me either way. Anyway, his answer was weird and I called his hand on it and he got TESTY....go figure!

He said "We use bolts on 'some' that have the cabinet (closet) that goes from the floor to the ceiling because of the extra stress in that area." I said "Whoa.... why 'some'?" He said "Well, because it takes longer to put a bolt and nut in than a rivet." So instead of reasoning, he asked if I was 'picking on Scamp'. I told him to not EVEN go there!! I told him I had worked diligently with Dave the production manager (the one you REALLY want to talk to at Scamp and the ONLY one that really is logical and makes sense and will truly help). I told him I had helped owners with new Scamps (Scamp even sent me an un-asked-for check one time for helping). He backed down and I hung up quickly...because he knew I was on to a potential AND real problem they werent willing to admit.

My big question is: If the rivets ARE substantial, why do they use bolts on others? Maybe the ones that dont have the front bath (extra bulkhead?) At this point we can only guess and theorize. Interesting though!

[QUOTE=gordon2;602731]I think we should see more than one bolt to assume is it standard Scamp practice. Anyone know someone in the factory well enough to get verification?
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Old 08-09-2016, 10:28 AM   #39
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Name: Gordon
Trailer: Scamp (16 Std Layout 4) with '15 Toyota Sienna LE Tug
North Carolina
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darral T. View Post
I think I mistook the size of your Scamp (16) for the year! So what year model is your Scamp? ..
Quote:
Originally Posted by gordon2 View Post
... my new Scamp from the factory in September 2015,...
Also it is a 16 foot layout four, as listed below my name on the left.
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Old 08-09-2016, 10:56 AM   #40
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Name: Darral
Trailer: Scamp Standard 13' 2010
Tennessee
Posts: 1,163
Sorry...I read the posts too fast sometimes. I see where you said Sept. '15. No doubt...they DO use the bolts on "some" as I said. Looking at the Layout 4 on Scamp's sight, I see where you dont have the front "bulkhead"...thus bolts in the closet! I think my theory may be right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gordon2 View Post
Also it is a 16 foot layout four, as listed below my name on the left.
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Old 08-09-2016, 11:52 AM   #41
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Name: Steve
Trailer: Scamp 13
California
Posts: 1,079
I don't think that there is a right or wrong here at all. Scamp chooses to use rivets because it's cheaper and it works. Could they use bolts yes but they don't work with the current snap cap design so they would have to have larger caps too, Then the outside is going to look even more awkward moving from pimples to warts. Once you go down the path from what's needed to what's best then you're chasing costs all over the place for no good reason.

The most expensive thing these days is labor. I'm sure the experienced guys riveting this trailer take about 2 hours for 2 guys just to set the rivets. It took me and my helper 2 days to redo all the rivets. trimming to fit where necessary. Change that to bolts the factory would probably be 2 days and for me probably a week. not counting the costs of materials and a whole slew of bolt lengths to be selected. Bolts will just make a simple job that much harder.

In my case I re riveted my whole 1986 Scamp 13. I know I did a better job than the factory did and I had the advantage if time and the fact that the inside liner materials were already 26 years compressed. I also trimmed rivets to fit so they are actually able to grip the acorn nut and snug up the assembly.

Just do what works best for you. I like the finished look with rivets and acorn nuts. I just wished I would have changed the zinc plated steel acorn nuts to Stainless steel or maybe chrome plated brass. I cheaped out and used some of the old acorn nuts and some new zinc plated steel ones provided in Scamps replacement fastener kits. If you have to replace your fasteners get Scamps kit for a 16 foot trailer to use when redoing a 13 foot trailer. You won't mind having some left over supplies. I also recommend buying a bunch of the longer rivets that Scamp has that doesn't come in the kits.
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Old 08-09-2016, 12:14 PM   #42
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Name: Gordon
Trailer: Scamp (16 Std Layout 4) with '15 Toyota Sienna LE Tug
North Carolina
Posts: 1,308
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Originally Posted by stevebaz View Post
I don't think that there is a right or wrong here ...
All very good advice Steve...

The original question was on the need to replace intact and (probably) non-leaking rivets where the snap caps and sometimes the snap cap bases had deteriorated. I think and hope that the OP has a handle on that now.

And as is not uncommon, one question leads to another and the question we were led to is the merit of using SS bolts in place of rivets. For those of you who don't have all day to read this forum (and other forums) like I do, I think we can sum it up by saying that some people are of the opinion that one of the reasons that rivets are used is that they are sacrificial. That is to say, they will break before they break the fiberglass.

There is probably some truth to that, but it seems we now know that Scamp will use bolts in some locations in some trailers. Perhaps the glass is thicker there, perhaps not. One thing I think is wrong for sure is to use a beefy bolt and crank it down too hard. Perhaps someday Scamp will publish torque specifications for bolts through fiberglass attaching various structures. (By the, that was a joke in case you missed it )

I think I will stick with whatever was OEM as long as it works, but it if does not, I won't be so scared of using a bolt here and there if I think that is what it will take to hold the trailer together.
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