electric brakes - Page 3 - Fiberglass RV


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Old 04-19-2012, 06:27 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by David Tilston View Post
I use crimp connections. After I remove the plastic, I crimp them, then I solder them, then use heat shrink.

If you are melting the solder from your connections due to high current, then you have other problems.

Byron, what is the reasoning behind no solder. Please go beyond that auto manufactures do not use it. I have always attributed that to cost effectiveness.

Soldering heats the wire, which then becomes brittle. The edge of the solder is a relative sharp edge. Any vibration will cause the wire to break at the solder edge where the brittle wire is against a sharp edge. Shrink wrapping helps by reducing the amount the wire moves, but it still moves. Eventually the wire will break.

Since crimping doesn't heat the wire, the wire stays it's normal non-brittle self, thus prolonging it's life.

Personal experiences.. I spent my life in electronic manufacturing. I never saw a properly crimped wire connection fail. But, I have seen thousands of solder connections fail. I was very happy when soldering wires was a thing of the past.
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Old 04-19-2012, 06:35 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Art VanDelay View Post
Byron is correct about soldered connections and another reason is that a high amperage through a soldered connection could MELT the solder. This is according to MIL SPEC.

As far as multiple grounds on the 12VDC side, your fridge is using a ground, a couple of lights you may have on and your water pump if in use. Go ahead and ground everything to the frame and should you get interference when turning a light on, just turn it back off.
Sorry to disagree, but my trailer (2006 Scamp) has only one connection besides the brakes to the frame. No other connections.
Basic engineering is never create possible ground loops.

To create enough heat to melt the solder the solder connection would have already failed. A number of strands would have broken at the edge causing a higher resistance and possible heating. More than likely the higher heat would burn the remaining strands before reaching the melting point of solder.
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Old 04-19-2012, 06:42 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Spanke View Post
Ground loops should have no electronic interference effect on DC voltage. Ground loops usually cause electronic interference when running inter-connected equipment on different phases of 2 phase AC house wiring. Even when hooked to an AC 110 v current bush, you are only connected to one phase of the campground wiring. Most of our egg campers do not have the capability to connect to 220v 2 phase wiring.

However, I do agree that grounding to the frame should not occur in multiple places due to the chance of failure of the wire/frame connection. It's much easier to track down a few problems that multiple problems. This should apply to brakes as well due to safety issues. Wire is cheap compared to having a brake failure when you really need them.

I also don't think that a solder connection to the frame should be used unless you have the capability to cad-weld your wiring, which makes a much more permanent connection. In the absence of a cad-weld, thoroughly cleaning the frame and using a mechanical connection should be adequate for most ground/frame connections. IMHO

Spanke
Ground Loops in DC circuits where there, motors, electronic device with processors, can radiate rf. If the rf is strong enough you could be in violation of FCC Part 15. The chances are very small, but still exists.
Automobiles and boat trailer can get away with it because there's current flowing the frame they're moving so won't cause much trouble. A travel trailer spends hours and days in one spot and could cause problems.
Like many other poorly engineered things you can probably get away with it.
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Old 04-19-2012, 09:53 PM   #32
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Soldering heats the wire, which then becomes brittle. The edge of the solder is a relative sharp edge. Any vibration will cause the wire to break at the solder edge where the brittle wire is against a sharp edge.
That would be true if you are using steel wire, but if you are using copper wire then heating it and then cooling it either slowly or rapidly will anneal the metal making it softer and less likely to break. I don't think many applications use steel wire for the electric wiring. Heating and cooling quickly can make some types of steel brittle but not copper, silver or brass.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annealing_(metallurgy)
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Old 04-19-2012, 10:21 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Byron Kinnaman View Post
I suppose the under side of your motor vehicle isn't exposed to same conditions? REPEAT... FIND A SOLDERED CONNECTION ON YOUR VEHICLE..

As a certified technician for Ford, Cat and International, I can tell you that soldered connections are the recommended practice for automotive and trailer applications. Every wire I have to touch or repair comes out neatly soldered, shrunk and tucked safely away. Never have any of those failed from normal use. (I did have one fail from having a 5" screw shot through the wiring harness on an F550)

We don't have soldered terminals from the factory because of the time and effort required during assembly. We also use plugs that only fit one connection so that the items are properly installed on the assembly line. Don't ask me how, but the assembly guys still mix them up.
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Old 04-19-2012, 10:29 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Andy B View Post
That would be true if you are using steel wire, but if you are using copper wire then heating it and then cooling it either slowly or rapidly will anneal the metal making it softer and less likely to break. I don't think many applications use steel wire for the electric wiring. Heating and cooling quickly can make some types of steel brittle but not copper, silver or brass.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annealing_(metallurgy)
Believe what you want.
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Old 04-19-2012, 10:31 PM   #35
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As a certified technician for Ford, Cat and International, I can tell you that soldered connections are the recommended practice for automotive and trailer applications. Every wire I have to touch or repair comes out neatly soldered, shrunk and tucked safely away. Never have any of those failed from normal use. (I did have one fail from having a 5" screw shot through the wiring harness on an F550)

We don't have soldered terminals from the factory because of the time and effort required during assembly. We also use plugs that only fit one connection so that the items are properly installed on the assembly line. Don't ask me how, but the assembly guys still mix them up.
Many "repair companies" are always trying to second guess the engineers.
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Old 04-19-2012, 10:37 PM   #36
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Many "repair companies" are always trying to second guess the engineers.
Dealer TSBs come from the manufacturer's engineers. (Though, they've given plenty of reason for doubt)

I dare you to try using anything other than a solder connection in a PATS key circuit.
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Old 04-19-2012, 11:05 PM   #37
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Here we go again.....

This thread was - at least at one point - about how to hook up electric brakes - Yes it is an extraordinarily complex circuit, what with two wires and all, especially since it doesn't matter which one is which, and the actual circuitry is highly complex with one of the two wires being hooked to power and the other to ground.

Now somehow we have degenerated into a technical discussion on "soldered" vs "crimped" without anyone giving any regard for the two most common methods: "just twist 'em together and wrap 'em with duct tape!" or, as Gina found on her newest trailer - wire nuts

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Old 04-19-2012, 11:20 PM   #38
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Here we go again.....

"just twist 'em together and wrap 'em with duct tape!"

Just don't do that with foil tape on a vacuum cord like one of my coworkers.
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Old 04-20-2012, 01:18 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Byron Kinnaman View Post
Ground Loops in DC circuits where there, motors, electronic device with processors, can radiate rf. If the rf is strong enough you could be in violation of FCC Part 15. The chances are very small, but still exists.
Automobiles and boat trailer can get away with it because there's current flowing the frame they're moving so won't cause much trouble. A travel trailer spends hours and days in one spot and could cause problems.
Like many other poorly engineered things you can probably get away with it.
"And monkeys might fly out of my butt!!!!!" Party on Garth!!!!!
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Old 04-20-2012, 10:05 AM   #40
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The beginning

And in the beginning I said: The ground discussion always creates controversy.
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Old 04-20-2012, 12:44 PM   #41
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Actually, I can buy that a soldered connection that sees flexing could be more subject to breakage, there would be a high strain where the flexible copper is pulled against the far more ridged solder joint. The lesson here is that strain relief is good. I am now convinced that I will put two layers of heat shrink on anything that I suspect may get tugged on, (I didn't know what to do with the bigger heat shrink anyway).

At the same time, when I installed a Fantastic fan, the corrosion on the wire around the original crimped connections was pretty bad. These connections were indoors, in the cabinet above the stove. It went about 2" under the insulation on the wires, which surprised me, since this was not a place that I expected moisture.

I stripped them back to good copper twisted them up with my fan wires and soldered and then marretted them.

I am not a corrosion engineer, but I am assuming that the tin in the solder should act as a sacrificial anode and thus keep this kind of corrosion from happening in the future.
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Old 04-20-2012, 12:50 PM   #42
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Dialectic grease could be an answer as it shields the connection from the elements. Tail lights usually come with a small tube of this stuff just for this purpose.
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