electric brakes

[Art VanDelay]

Byron is correct about soldered connections and another reason is that a high amperage through a soldered connection could MELT the solder. This is according to MIL SPEC.

As far as multiple grounds on the 12VDC side, your fridge is using a ground, a couple of lights you may have on and your water pump if in use. Go ahead and ground everything to the frame and should you get interference when turning a light on, just turn it back off.

[David Tilston]

I use crimp connections. After I remove the plastic, I crimp them, then I solder them, then use heat shrink.

If you are melting the solder from your connections due to high current, then you have other problems.

Byron, what is the reasoning behind no solder. Please go beyond that auto manufactures do not use it. I have always attributed that to cost effectiveness.

[Art VanDelay]

David said: If you are melting the solder from your connections due to high current, then you have other problems.

David, You R right. That is why Mil Spec states you do not use solder on high current connections.

[David Tilston]

Originally Posted by Art VanDelay

David said: If you are melting the solder from your connections due to high current, then you have other problems.

David, You R right. That is why Mil Spec states you do not use solder on high current connections.

My point is, if you have a properly sized fuse, the wire should never get that hot. If it does, then corrosion and a bad crimp would be my first suspects.

Many of the connections on my trailer show signs of profound corrosion on the wires where they were exposed to the air, around the crimp connections. Some were so corroded that a minor tug resulted in the wire breaking at the crimp connection. I feel that the combination of the led tin solder and excessive heat shrink will help prevent corrosion in the future.

[Spanke]

Originally Posted by Byron Kinnaman

Multiple grounds could be a problem if you use electronics on board. Ground loops can cause interference with your TV, Radio, and your neighbors electronics. Grounding to the frame should be done at one point and one point only so that no current flows in the frame.

However, since the brakes are applied intermittently, they can be safely connected to the frame. The chances of interference are very small in this case. That's only exception to the one point rule.

Ground loops should have no electronic interference effect on DC voltage. Ground loops usually cause electronic interference when running inter-connected equipment on different phases of 2 phase AC house wiring. Even when hooked to an AC 110 v current bush, you are only connected to one phase of the campground wiring. Most of our egg campers do not have the capability to connect to 220v 2 phase wiring.

However, I do agree that grounding to the frame should not occur in multiple places due to the chance of failure of the wire/frame connection. It's much easier to track down a few problems that multiple problems. This should apply to brakes as well due to safety issues. Wire is cheap compared to having a brake failure when you really need them.

I also don't think that a solder connection to the frame should be used unless you have the capability to cad-weld your wiring, which makes a much more permanent connection. In the absence of a cad-weld, thoroughly cleaning the frame and using a mechanical connection should be adequate for most ground/frame connections. IMHO

Spanke

[fusedlight]

One other thing. Be wary of different metals contacting each other. In a salty environment that can cause corrosion.

[Jon Vermilye]

Originally Posted by fusedlight

I just got a quote from my local U-Haul for $330 to install their "Prodigy" controller on my Rav4. That sound in the ballpark?

Originally Posted by Thomas G.

Only if it includes the price of the controller. It is a relatively easy job to install, especially if they can use a custom plug in made for your particular vehicle.

Actually, since the RAV4 doesn't have any brake wiring going between the dash & the rear of the vehicle (or even the wiring for a 4 way trailer connection), I'd say it is a good quote even without the controller. I ran mine - you need to pull all the driver's side paneling from the front to the rear, add a fused wire from the battery to the controller, etc. Took the better part of a day to add a Toyota brand trailer light cable, a video cable for a rear view camera, a charge wire & the controller & wiring.

A set of instructions for the RAV4 is here.

[Thomas G.]

Originally Posted by Byron Kinnaman

I suppose the under side of your motor vehicle isn't exposed to same conditions? REPEAT... FIND A SOLDERED CONNECTION ON YOUR VEHICLE..

I'm not going to get into a peeing contest with you over this. Do what ever you want.

[Byron Kinnaman]

Originally Posted by David Tilston

I use crimp connections. After I remove the plastic, I crimp them, then I solder them, then use heat shrink.

If you are melting the solder from your connections due to high current, then you have other problems.

Byron, what is the reasoning behind no solder. Please go beyond that auto manufactures do not use it. I have always attributed that to cost effectiveness.

Soldering heats the wire, which then becomes brittle. The edge of the solder is a relative sharp edge. Any vibration will cause the wire to break at the solder edge where the brittle wire is against a sharp edge. Shrink wrapping helps by reducing the amount the wire moves, but it still moves. Eventually the wire will break.

Since crimping doesn't heat the wire, the wire stays it's normal non-brittle self, thus prolonging it's life.

Personal experiences.. I spent my life in electronic manufacturing. I never saw a properly crimped wire connection fail. But, I have seen thousands of solder connections fail. I was very happy when soldering wires was a thing of the past.

[Byron Kinnaman]

Originally Posted by Art VanDelay

Byron is correct about soldered connections and another reason is that a high amperage through a soldered connection could MELT the solder. This is according to MIL SPEC.

As far as multiple grounds on the 12VDC side, your fridge is using a ground, a couple of lights you may have on and your water pump if in use. Go ahead and ground everything to the frame and should you get interference when turning a light on, just turn it back off.

Sorry to disagree, but my trailer (2006 Scamp) has only one connection besides the brakes to the frame. No other connections.
Basic engineering is never create possible ground loops.

To create enough heat to melt the solder the solder connection would have already failed. A number of strands would have broken at the edge causing a higher resistance and possible heating. More than likely the higher heat would burn the remaining strands before reaching the melting point of solder.

[Byron Kinnaman]

Originally Posted by Spanke

Ground loops should have no electronic interference effect on DC voltage. Ground loops usually cause electronic interference when running inter-connected equipment on different phases of 2 phase AC house wiring. Even when hooked to an AC 110 v current bush, you are only connected to one phase of the campground wiring. Most of our egg campers do not have the capability to connect to 220v 2 phase wiring.

However, I do agree that grounding to the frame should not occur in multiple places due to the chance of failure of the wire/frame connection. It's much easier to track down a few problems that multiple problems. This should apply to brakes as well due to safety issues. Wire is cheap compared to having a brake failure when you really need them.

I also don't think that a solder connection to the frame should be used unless you have the capability to cad-weld your wiring, which makes a much more permanent connection. In the absence of a cad-weld, thoroughly cleaning the frame and using a mechanical connection should be adequate for most ground/frame connections. IMHO

Spanke

Ground Loops in DC circuits where there, motors, electronic device with processors, can radiate rf. If the rf is strong enough you could be in violation of FCC Part 15. The chances are very small, but still exists.
Automobiles and boat trailer can get away with it because there's current flowing the frame they're moving so won't cause much trouble. A travel trailer spends hours and days in one spot and could cause problems.
Like many other poorly engineered things you can probably get away with it.

[Andy B]

Originally Posted by Byron Kinnaman

Soldering heats the wire, which then becomes brittle. The edge of the solder is a relative sharp edge. Any vibration will cause the wire to break at the solder edge where the brittle wire is against a sharp edge.

That would be true if you are using steel wire, but if you are using copper wire then heating it and then cooling it either slowly or rapidly will anneal the metal making it softer and less likely to break. I don't think many applications use steel wire for the electric wiring. Heating and cooling quickly can make some types of steel brittle but not copper, silver or brass.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annealing_(metallurgy)

[841K9]

Originally Posted by Byron Kinnaman

I suppose the under side of your motor vehicle isn't exposed to same conditions? REPEAT... FIND A SOLDERED CONNECTION ON YOUR VEHICLE..

As a certified technician for Ford, Cat and International, I can tell you that soldered connections are the recommended practice for automotive and trailer applications. Every wire I have to touch or repair comes out neatly soldered, shrunk and tucked safely away. Never have any of those failed from normal use. (I did have one fail from having a 5" screw shot through the wiring harness on an F550)

We don't have soldered terminals from the factory because of the time and effort required during assembly. We also use plugs that only fit one connection so that the items are properly installed on the assembly line. Don't ask me how, but the assembly guys still mix them up.

[Byron Kinnaman]

Originally Posted by Andy B

That would be true if you are using steel wire, but if you are using copper wire then heating it and then cooling it either slowly or rapidly will anneal the metal making it softer and less likely to break. I don't think many applications use steel wire for the electric wiring. Heating and cooling quickly can make some types of steel brittle but not copper, silver or brass.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annealing_(metallurgy)

Believe what you want.

[Byron Kinnaman]

Originally Posted by 841K9

As a certified technician for Ford, Cat and International, I can tell you that soldered connections are the recommended practice for automotive and trailer applications. Every wire I have to touch or repair comes out neatly soldered, shrunk and tucked safely away. Never have any of those failed from normal use. (I did have one fail from having a 5" screw shot through the wiring harness on an F550)

We don't have soldered terminals from the factory because of the time and effort required during assembly. We also use plugs that only fit one connection so that the items are properly installed on the assembly line. Don't ask me how, but the assembly guys still mix them up.

Many "repair companies" are always trying to second guess the engineers.

[841K9]

Originally Posted by Byron Kinnaman

Many "repair companies" are always trying to second guess the engineers.

Dealer TSBs come from the manufacturer's engineers. (Though, they've given plenty of reason for doubt)

I dare you to try using anything other than a solder connection in a PATS key circuit.

[BCDave]

Here we go again.....

This thread was - at least at one point - about how to hook up electric brakes - Yes it is an extraordinarily complex circuit, what with two wires and all, especially since it doesn't matter which one is which, and the actual circuitry is highly complex with one of the two wires being hooked to power and the other to ground.

Now somehow we have degenerated into a technical discussion on "soldered" vs "crimped" without anyone giving any regard for the two most common methods: "just twist 'em together and wrap 'em with duct tape!" or, as Gina found on her newest trailer - wire nuts

[841K9]

Originally Posted by BCDave

Here we go again.....

"just twist 'em together and wrap 'em with duct tape!"

Just don't do that with foil tape on a vacuum cord like one of my coworkers.

[Spanke]

Originally Posted by Byron Kinnaman

Ground Loops in DC circuits where there, motors, electronic device with processors, can radiate rf. If the rf is strong enough you could be in violation of FCC Part 15. The chances are very small, but still exists.
Automobiles and boat trailer can get away with it because there's current flowing the frame they're moving so won't cause much trouble. A travel trailer spends hours and days in one spot and could cause problems.
Like many other poorly engineered things you can probably get away with it.

"And monkeys might fly out of my butt!!!!!" Party on Garth!!!!!

[Darwin Maring]

And in the beginning I said: The ground discussion always creates controversy.