Generator

[John Adrienne]

The generators that I was looking at are actually made by a brand called "Champion Power Equipment" and is a 4000 watt peak unit. There are some pretty cool features on it including what they refer to as a "RV ready outlet". The smaller unit they make I think is going to be too small for my needs as it is a 1500 watt peak generator. I am going to check them out again tomorrow at my local Kragen autoparts store where they are on sale for $199 for the 1500w and $299 for the 4000w unit.

I will be honest, price is a HUGE factor at the moment but I am not into buying junk either, so I intend to get some more information about them and hear them run. I am really hoping it is not too loud, that is my main concern but I guess I can always get crafty and build some kind of box or something if it comes to that.

You can see what they are at parts america:

http://www.partsamerica.com/

http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductDetail....rtnumber=C46540

Thanks again for the replies and I will let you all know what I end up purchasing.

[Bigfoot Mike]

John,

Here is the Specs...

[b]C46540 Technical Data
* Running Watts: 3500 Watts
* Surge Watts: 4000 Watts
* AC Voltage: 120 / 240 V
* DC Voltage: 12 V
* Frequency: 60 Hz
* Phase: Single Phase
* Integrated Control Panel<blockquote> o 30 Amp 120/240 Volt AC Twistlock
o 30 Amp 120 Volt AC Recreational Vehicle Receptacle
o 20 Amp 120 Volt AC Duplex
o 10 Amp 12 Volt DC Outlet
o Volt Meter </blockquote> * Circuit Breaker Protection
* Engine: 6.5 HP OHV Champion Engine, EPA & CARB Certified
* Low Oil Shut-off
* Fuel Tank Capacity: 4 gallons with Built-in Fuel Meter
* Heavy Duty Steel Frame
* Running Hours: 12 hours at 50% load
* Noise Level: 68 dB (from 7 meters)

[b]Included Accessories
* 12 Volt Battery Charging Cable
* USDA Forest Service Approved Spark Arrester
* Spark Plug Tool

[Bob H]

Hi John,
Here is the corporate website FAQ for Champion Power Equipment, it's full of good advice that also can be applied to most small engine gear.

Champion Generators FAQ

ConwayBob

[Brian B-P]

...can you elaborate what it is that they have wrong.

1 - The description states that "standard" generators use copper coils, and implies that "inverter" units do not. This is not true: in both cases, conductor (copper) coils are turned in a magnetic field to produce power. The inverter is an extra component after the alternator in the power flow, not instead of the alternator and its "copper coils".

2 - Their description states that "standard" generators "generate a raw form of electricity". No: they generate sinusoidal AC power requiring no further processing... that's not "raw" by any definition I've seen. It's not as stable in voltage or frequency as ideal, but it's not "raw".

Strangely, as the graphics show, the alternator in their example of an inverter-based set generates three-phase high-frequency power (instead of the single-phase 60 Hz power of a "standard" set's alternator output)... that is "raw", given that the "finished" version is to be 60 Hz single-phase!

3 - The inverter generators are said to produce "clean" power. They might, but this is certainly not inherent in the design. Most of the inverters used to convert to AC power from 12VDC produce power which is far from a pure sine wave, and an inverter-based generator could do the same thing.


I'm not saying that all of the Electric Generators Direct information is wrong... the explanation of the engine speed issue is close (although even that is not quite right), and I agree with the conclusion that the inverter approach can produce a quieter and more efficient generator set by allowing variable engine speed. It's just that with the fundamental errors introduced in the attempt to boil the technology down for the web page, there's no reasonable way to know what other information may be similarly suspect.

[Patrick M.]

You know, sometimes you just have to stop considering all the options and go with the tried and true solution that everyone who has it (like me), loves it.

Buy a Honda 2000i from Wise (like I did) or Camping World or wherever and sleep well at night knowing it will run your A/C in a quiet, reliable manner.

[Pete Dumbleton]

As discussed previously on this forum, a 10 dB difference in noise level is perceived by humans as twice as loud, and that is so in this case against the loudest Yamaha and almost three!!! times as loud as the quieter generators. (51dBA vs 68dBA)

That is likely to be even worse in actual use, because the non-inverter generators have to operate at a relatively high rpm (noisy) to produce 60Hz, whereas the inverters don't (rpm is dependent on load), which is why they can purr along in econo-mode all day (only sipping fuel in the process).

The RV receptacle advantage can be 'overcome' with one of these which I just saw on another site for $7.50.

Almost all of the generators have a 12VDC outlet, but they are of dubious value compared to using a battery charger with the generator for much faster and better charging.

If price is really so important, do your camping neighbors a favor and get a Kipor.

[Darwin Maring]

Most people camp on the grid anyway and will rarely go off the grid so to speak. Should they camp off the grid it would be wise to stay within the noise limits such as those posted by National Park Service. The following chart is from a Honda generator site and it quotes those limits.

Distance 10 feet 23 feet 50 feet
Generator Load 0 % 100 % 0 % 100 % 0 % 100 %
National Park Noise Limit 74 db 74 db 67 db 67 db 60 db 60 db
Honda EU-3000 56 db 66 db 49 db 59 db 42 db 52 db
Onan MicroQuiet 62 db 70 db 55 db 63 db 48 db 56 db

http://klenger.powweb.com/arctic-fox/gener...oise/index.html

http://www.lowertheboom.org/trice/safedblevels.htm


http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasc...9/eng99325.htm

"decibel levels"

"Question: We are a 5th grade class and we would like information about decibel levels. Do you have a list of decibel levels for common sounds? Such as voice, airplane, etc?
--------------------------------------------------
Answer: First, remember that the decibel (d is a logarithmic unit,
meaning that you cannot add and subtract dB like ordinary numbers. For
example, an increase of 3 dB is a doubling of the "strength" of the sound, and an increase of 10 dB means that the sound is 10 times as loud; i.e., 70 dB is 10 times as loud as 60 dB."
-------------------------------------------------
The book that came with my BIC Venturi speakers states that an increase of 10 decibels in sound represents a DOUBLING of the volume. That means that 70 dB would be TWICE as loud as 60 dB.

To quote the book: "Psycho-acousticians agree that a change of 10 dB of sound pressure level causes one to hear a DOUBLING of loudness."

[Pete Dumbleton]

Darwin and I are in agreement on this; actually if one takes the small Honda/Yamaha, etc, at 51dBA and compares it to 68dBA, there's a doubling of loudness from 51 to 61 and then an almost doubling again from 61 to 68...

I believe most of the sound level info posted by the various manufacturers is at about the 23 foot distance, but I don't know what the load standard is.

I know that when I am choosing a site in a CG where generators are allowed, I will avoid camping near sites that have generators in the tube steel frames, because they are generally the loudest.

I recall camping on Vancouver Island a few years ago and hearing what I thought was a generator occasionally audible on the wind from the other side of a bay -- Turned out to be a small Yamaha in the next CG...

Actually, I am disappointed that Honda quit making the 600W inverter set, because that's all I would need to run my battery charger or a small electric heater.

[ddayton]

Was disappointed with the performance of my Honda EU2000i in powering the air-conditioning of my 07C17SD, did some testing and personal observations.

OK, think that I have done enough testing to satisfy myself that the Honda 2000 would be marginal for my needs so will post some observations, then hook up my Yamaha 2400 and go on to the River Valley Egg Rally.

My Casita is a 07C17SD and the air conditioner has the optional electric heat strips installed. Went back and took a look at the weather conditions on the first testing I did and the temperature was not 95 degrees but actually 98 or 99 degrees at the time of the test. The second testing day was 100 or 101 degrees at the time of the test. The third day was 88 degrees during the testing and the fourth day was 99 or 100 degrees during the testing. I live in Trinity, TX, have been told that we are about 60 feet above sea level and testing was performed in the shade of a carport.

The specifications for my air conditioning unit are shown in the pictures below. Would welcome any comments on the numbers, from you electrical experts out there.

The Honda is a EU2000i that at the beginning of the first day of testing had about 5 hours of use. During each testing day the Honda was run approximately 2 hours.

Summary of testing ….

Only on the third day of testing, when the temperature was 88 degrees, was the Honda able to restart the air conditioning after it had cycled off. The Honda was not able to do this in ECO mode, only when ECO was turned off.

The Honda was able to run the 700-watt microwave, all lights, overhead fan and water pump while operating in the ECO mode. No attempt was made to run the electric heating element in the water heater or the air conditioner.

On the other days, when the temperature was 98 degrees or warmer, the Honda, with ECO mode turned off, was able to initially start the air conditioning unit but unable to restart the unit after the air conditioner compressor had cycled off.

Upon conclusion of the Honda testing, with the temperature at 99 or 100 degrees, I tested my Yamaha EF2400is generator. This generator was used for two years with my Scamp 5vr so my guess is that it has had a couple of hundred hours of use. The Yamaha runs in its version of the Honda ECO mode at all times, there is no switch to turn it off. It was able to start and restart the air conditioning unit without a problem. At one point all inside lights were on, the range hood vent fan was on, the bathroom vent fan was on, the refrigerator was on, and the Yamaha was able to restart the air conditioner after a compressor cycle off.

True, the Honda is lighter, uses less gas and has an extended run tank – but, since it does not work for me … the Yamaha will get a few more miles looking off the back bumper of a egg.

Sorry for the long post, just thought it would be best to say it all at once.

[Patrick M.]

Based on the above experience, I temporarily withdraw my 2000i recommendation until four weeks from now when I have tested mine with the 2007 Casita LD I am getting. Perhaps the AC being used in 2007 is different from earlier units, which have no difficulty being run on the 2000i.

I'll be back to this thread next month.

[Bigfoot Mike]

I have posted in the past but will repost my experience.

I took my Casita down to our local Honda dealer, Power House in Paso Robles California. The day was 113° out side. I told the salesman if the Honda can run my Air Conditioning in this weather I’ll buy it.

He said let’s see. He went in and brought out a new Honda EU2000i.

We hooked it up and started the Honda. I went into the Casita the sweat dripping off my brow like you wouldn’t believe. The generator was on high. I turned on the AC and with absolutely no problem at all, it started and ran the AC.

I have had the generator now for 6 years. It has not given me one bit of trouble. At my mother-in-laws medical emergency in Phoenix, AZ, we sat in the parking lot in temps of 110° and ran the AC all day while family members went in and out of the Hospital. What a life saver for us.

We use the Honda for a Microwave, TV, A/C, and charging our house batteries. I use a respirator at night and rely on having charge batteries to sleep. I have used it to make popcorn at 12,000 feet in the Rocky Mountain National Park for a bunch of friends.

We sold our first Casita and bought a NEW Casita, but kept our Honda EU2000i. It still does the job with the NEW bigger A/C unit wonderfully.

I have no ownership in Honda. I am just totally sold on the product. It runs quiet and does the job. My wife can carry it and start it easily.

[ddayton]

Patrick - will be interested to hear your results ... could be I got a bum Honda???? Don

[Patrick M.]

Patrick - will be interested to hear your results ... could be I got a bum Honda????

Based on the success almost all have reported using the 2000i to power the A/C, I suspect either your A/C is "above spec" or your generator is "below spec", or a combo thereof. I will be testing mine as we will be using the generator/A-C setup often and will report back to the forum by the end of September.

[Pete Dumbleton]

There's a certain amount of apples and oranges here with regard to the actual a/c units themselves, which is why it's generally a good idea to caveat just about any generator recommendation unless it is clearly over-sized for the range of a/c units in eggs.

What matters is the starting amperage of the a/c and even when you have the number I would guess (because I don't really know) that the amps were measured on cold starts in low ambient temps, not repeatedly hotter starts when working hard in 100*+ temps.

Just saying "...the a/c that came with my 200X ABC Egg..." isn't enough info because the egg manfs provide off-the-shelf appliances based on cost, availability and other unknown factors and they may differ drastically from model to model and year to year as we have seen with tires, converters and even axles.

Don, and anyone with an a/c, I strongly recommend you check with the a/c manf, model and SN in hand, to see what they have to say about starting amps and also to find out if a Hard Start Kit is available for your a/c (And, if so, what the starting amps are for it). You can then compare it to your current or intended genset and if the match is marginal, consider another genset or paralleling two smaller ones because in really hot temps, when the a/c has been running and the genset is getting old, things may not work well.

Additionally, we have added another requirement to the mix when we want the genset to start the a/c from its version of EconoMode, which will likely require a larger genset.

[bobinyelm]

Darwin and I are in agreement on this; actually if one takes the small Honda/Yamaha, etc, at 51dBA and compares it to 68dBA, there's a doubling of loudness from 51 to 61 and then an almost doubling again from 61 to 68...

I believe most of the sound level info posted by the various manufacturers is at about the 23 foot distance, but I don't know what the load standard is.

I know that when I am choosing a site in a CG where generators are allowed, I will avoid camping near sites that have generators in the tube steel frames, because they are generally the loudest.

I recall camping on Vancouver Island a few years ago and hearing what I thought was a generator occasionally audible on the wind from the other side of a bay -- Turned out to be a small Yamaha in the next CG...

Actually, I am disappointed that Honda quit making the 600W inverter set, because that's all I would need to run my battery charger or a small electric heater.

When it comes to noise, one CAN make generators quieter.

I have seen this trick used at County Fairs and such where vendors use generators to run their catering equipment:

Place the generator in a topless box slightly larger than the unit (and 50% taller) that has some holes near the bottom in the sidewalls for inlet ventilation, and line the interior of the box with almost anything light (2" or thicker foam rubber is a good starting point), OR

Place the generator IN the same box (now the ventillation holes are near the top in the sidewalls). In this case, cut squares out of the sides on the open end for ventilation. Mount a couple decent sized muffin fans in the top of the box to assist ventilation-power them right from the genset.

In both cases, I have been AMAZED at the reduction in noise from even 3500 watt 6.5hp generators. More than 10ft away, you simply cannot hear them running! Without the enclosures, they are VERY loud.

In hot weather locations, I suspect that the open-top boxes will prevent overheating, but the closed top might provide weather protection for the genset in cool/wet weather.

I'll bet a Honda 2000i in one of these "noise boxes" would make it near inaudible, but do be aware that air circulation is more important to the genset than noise.

Worth a try,
Bob

[John Perry]

When it comes to noise, one CAN make generators quieter.

II'll bet a Honda 2000i in one of these "noise boxes" would make it near inaudible, but do be aware that air circulation is more important to the genset than noise.

Worth a try,
Bob

I'm kind of lazy and untrusting when I use my Honda 2000 it sits next to the rear bumper of my trailer so I can lock it to the bumper with a short chain. Usually I only use it during the summer months so so all of the windows are open.
Never had a noise problem and the only time it ever failed to start was when it sat for about 8 months with fuel in it that did not have a stabilizer. I removed the carb cleaned the green jelly out of the bowl, blew some carb cleanaer through the ports and jets and put it back together. It usually starts on the second pull and never more than 3 and that is after it has not run for an extended amount of time.
Before I bought the Honda I had a Coleman, Mcculloch and I can't remember what the third one was.
The Honda 2000 is at least 7 years old and is the best investment I have made as far as gens go. The only other brand I would consider is Yamaha.
John

[Joe Romas]

There's a certain amount of apples and oranges here with regard to the actual a/c units themselves, which is why it's generally a good idea to caveat just about any generator recommendation unless it is clearly over-sized for the range of a/c units in eggs.

What matters is the starting amperage of the a/c and even when you have the number I would guess (because I don't really know) that the amps were measured on cold starts in low ambient temps, not repeatedly hotter starts when working hard in 100*+ temps.

Just saying "...the a/c that came with my 200X ABC Egg..." isn't enough info because the egg manfs provide off-the-shelf appliances based on cost, availability and other unknown factors and they may differ drastically from model to model and year to year as we have seen with tires, converters and even axles.

Don, and anyone with an a/c, I strongly recommend you check with the a/c manf, model and SN in hand, to see what they have to say about starting amps and also to find out if a Hard Start Kit is available for your a/c (And, if so, what the starting amps are for it). You can then compare it to your current or intended genset and if the match is marginal, consider another genset or paralleling two smaller ones because in really hot temps, when the a/c has been running and the genset is getting old, things may not work well.

Additionally, we have added another requirement to the mix when we want the genset to start the a/c from its version of EconoMode, which will likely require a larger genset.

Pete.

Your "guess" about requiring more starting current in hotter temperatures is right on the money! It's the nature of refrigeration Also something that most are overlooking is on a "brand new" unit the engine's parts are not fully seated with each other and a older "used" one could have more power because it's "broken in". Also things like altitude and freshness of the gasoline also matter.

I found a new a Kipor kge1000ti for $250. I wish I could find a similiar deal on a 2k unit I will not even think about trying the AC in my 99 Casita 17' SD

Joe

[Darwin Maring]

I have our McCullouch 2000 digital outside running the air conditioner in the Scamp 5r. I do this from time to time just to exercize the generator and run out the older gas.

I purchased one of those inline Amp/Watt meters from Northern Tool and it is reading 7.5A and around 900Watt in the running mode. It pulls more to start the unit but not to much to trip the generator overload. It is in the 90s outside and in the sun. The extension cord is the shortest possable to make the connection convienient and it is using a 10G wires with a Marinco, Park Power, 30A 3 wire locking connection.

The McCullouch is a Kipor by another name. You can find them at www.northerntool.com and other places on the internet. I purchased mine a couple years ago froom tool king.

[Bob H]

I have our McCullouch 2000 digital outside running the air conditioner in the Scamp 5r. I do this from time to time just to exercize the generator and run out the older gas.

I purchased one of those inline Amp/Watt meters from Northern Tool and it is reading 7.5A and around 900Watt in the running mode. It pulls more to start the unit but not to much to trip the generator overload. It is in the 90s outside and in the sun. The extension cord is the shortest possable to make the connection convienient and it is using a 10G wires with a Marinco, Park Power, 30A 3 wire locking connection.

The McCullouch is a Kipor by another name. You can find them at www.northerntool.com and other places on the internet. I purchased mine a couple years ago froom tool king.

Darwin,
You've made a good point mentioning your wire gauge and attention to the length of your extention cords, an often overlooked consideration. It's surprizing how something taken for granted can really effect performace. If you buy a extension cord based on price rather than wire gauge and capacity you're just begging for trouble.

It's smart to make sure that any extention cord between an appliance and it's power source, is always as big, or a larger gauge wire as the appliance's cord.

And of course as to the length of the extention cord, the shorter, the better.
Isn't that AmWatt handy?

ConwayBob

[Darwin Maring]

To ConwayBob,

I had just unpacked the AmWatt and was running a test using it along with exercising the Gen. Yes it is really handy and well worth the price.

Here is something else that is worth the price: www.harborfreight.com has a Digital Tread Depth Gauge, SKU#95381
that is foolproof to use, has a readout that I can read without my glasses is in inch/mm and hopefully allow me to spot tire wear B4 I have a serious problem.