Green(er) Towing... fuel choices?

[CD Smith]

I was at one time totally opposed to H2 as a vehicle fuel for safety reasons until I relized that the storage tanks made today are far safer than the fuel tank in you gas/diesel powered car/truck.

As far as how to manufacture H2, I agree that the process used today can generate unwanted air polution and uses hydrocarbon based fuel (natural gas). This will change, maybe not by Detriot automakers, but the Japanese have anounced a process where you generate your own H2 and some of the cost is offset by using the hot water it generates.

The good news is that the major cause of polution, the comuter vehicle, will be greatly reduced.

[Lee Hillsgrove]

Well, I for one am not going to hold my breath waiting for hydrogen technology to save the day. We still have a LONG way to go to even begin to think about hydrogen being a viable everydaysource of energy.

Biodiesel is something that's here right now, that can be distributed through existing infrastructure and which uses mature technologies. Heck, you can make your own at home if you want to, and plenty of people do. Maybe that's part of the reason the government is pushing hydrogen - there is no way anyone is going to be producing their own and thus less chance of people evading taxes.

/pass the tinfoil hat, please.

Wait, there may be a grain of truth to that. The government hates competition.

[peterh]

There's always a risk in quoting part of a statement for reference that it will be taken out of context, but this is one that has truly broad applicability - way beyond environmental issues!

The man who wrote the paper is not a professor. The UNC Faculty/Staff page says Michael Briggs is a Lab Manager/Technical Specialist, not a researcher.

--Peter

[dsheets70]

Dilithium crystals are the answer.

The only problem Captain is that just cant find any!!

[Lee Hillsgrove]

The man who wrote the paper is not a professor. The UNC Faculty/Staff page says Michael Briggs is a Lab Manager/Technical Specialist, not a researcher.

--Peter

Oops - my mistake, if so. Sorry!

I know Mike from online forums - he's a pretty bright guy. We haven't met up in person yet.

[Luc P]

As to sluggish cars - try driving one of the A2 series ('85 - '92) of VW Jettas with the normally aspirated 1.6 diesel. 52 hp!

I had the automatic version of that car.... forget about the left lane on the highway.

but the 2000 Jetta TDI turboed, chipped gave me a nice 174hp at the wheels (like 200bhp) and 360lb.ft and still gave me that 45mpg on the highway driving ahead of the pack at 85-90mph. It was the best at towing the 13" Boler. Then I got a Toyota Tacoma with the 4cyl 2.7L thinking about getting high MPG in a pick-up.....

well... 22mpg is not that nice when you had the power and mpg in the jetta but at least the toyota can tow nicely our new-to-us Boler 1750FG (let's say barely tow as the engine can't sustain 70mph while towing on flat land unless in third gear @ 4800rpm)

[peterh]

I'm not a big fan of Hydrogen technology and it probably can't tw a trailer, but Honda has just started showing off their new "FCX" hydrogen-fueled concept vehicle and announced plans to put the technology into production vehicles sometime next year (2008). Details at http://world.honda.com/FuelCell/

I'm not a fan of hydrogen technology because that hydrogen has to come from somewhere, and its usually derived from a fossil fuels. Honda's technology is no different: their Home Energy Station gets its hydrogen from natural gas and solar energy.

I'd like to move away from fossil-fuels and their political, economic, and environmental costs. That said, the technology Honda has chosen for converting fossil fuels into hydrogen is better than most, converting the natural gas to hydrogen fairly efficiently while producing heat that can be used for household heating in addition to hydrogen for the car. Better yet, if the electricity ever goes out it can burn the stored hydrogen to make up to 5000 watts (45 amps) of electricity to power household lights and such until the power comes back on.

--Peter

[Darwin Maring]

I just saw a new tow vehicle for sale that will tow up to 5,500lbs for less than $1,200 USD. The only thing wrong with it is the Extension Cord sells for about $500,000 USD.

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Unbelievable, this joke was on TV back in the 50s and was about a car. They been talking about this stuff since the invention of the wheel.

[Brian B-P]

I'm not a big fan of Hydrogen technology and it probably can't tw a trailer, but Honda has just started showing off their new "FCX" hydrogen-fueled concept vehicle and announced plans to put the technology into production vehicles sometime next year (2008)...

The history of the FCX goes back at least six years, with the expected continuing improvements. It's nice that the newest one is so good, but I don't see how this is the moment to start using it, since I have the same concerns as Peter: the hydrogen supply issue is unchanged. A few on the road would help development for later use, but I don't think their operation would do the environment any favour for now.

Maybe we should ask Honda to volunteer one to a trailer owner to get some real-world experience towing?

If someone wants natural-gas-dependent standby power for their home, I think an ordinary generator (get 'em at Home Depot, set up for permanent installation and natural gas fuel) is a more affordable and practical solution.

[John Mc]

There's at least two kinds of folks in this discussion-- those who will use conventional vehicles and fuels until the perfect solution is found, and those who will adopt the first alternative that seems like an improvement. I tend to be the latter kind. And of all the few fuel choices available in the USA now, I'll take biodiesel. I've run it in our second car, a VW Golf, for two years plus. It has no drawbacks except for cost (I believe that as a carbon-neutral fuel, it's worth a $1.00 a gallon premium) and gelling problems (we use much less bio in the winter, but it's easy to drive petroleum-free in the summer, and the shoulder seasons too).

For a tow vehicle, I use a Subaru Forester. That's the smallest, handiest vehicle I can imagine getting by with. At 25mpg, it's my family's gas hog, but that would be the best mileage among most surburban fleets.

What I want is a combination of the Subaru's utility and the VW's turbodiesel. And it looks like that's what we will be offered in a year or two, when VW brings out a smaller SUV with a TDI engine. Google "VW Tiguan" and see what's in store. Then start saving your down payments.

[Brian B-P]

There's at least two kinds of folks in this discussion-- those who will use conventional vehicles and fuels until the perfect solution is found, and those who will adopt the first alternative that seems like an improvement.
...I'll take biodiesel.
...I believe that as a carbon-neutral fuel...

Although I suspect that I would be lumped in the first category, I'm not. I just want a real improvement, rather than one merely promoted as an improvement.

I have no argument with the idea of biodiesel, and it may well be an improvement; I applaud those who make and informed decision and "put their money where their mouth is, such as John and others here. Since I don't have a diesel, it just isn't a current option for me.

I would urge caution in accepting the idea that biodiesel is "carbon-neutral"... sure, the carbon released when it is used is balanced by the carbon captured by the growing plants which are used to make it, but a great deal of petroleum fuel goes into the production of biodiesel.

I think it would be interesting to see a biodiesel or ethanol production operation in which all of the required energy for the equipment involved (vehicles and processing) is provided by the operation itself, to see just how much net fuel comes out.

...Google "VW Tiguan" and see what's in store...

I did, and it looks like it may be of interest to many FiberglassRV members. On the other hand, it doesn't look like anything special among the horde of small SUVs, except for likely availability of that turbodiesel, as well as favourite mechanical design of mine - the DSG transmission.

[Lee Hillsgrove]

Subaru has talked seriously about the introduction of a flat-4 diesel in North America. I would love one of those! In an ideal world, it would keep my compact turbodiesel pickup company in the driveway. Oh, wait, nobody sells one of those here.

I don't think that I'd say a "great deal" of petroleum goes into the production of BD. Well, I will give you that a lot more is used than needs to be - most US production uses soybeans as a feedstock, which is really a pretty poor choice. Why do we use it, then? You can thank the lobbying efforts of the soybean board...

We should mazimize the use of waste vegetable oil, waste animal fats, and phase in better sources of virgin feedstocks, like algae. Most BD is produced using sodium hydroxide and methanol, though ethanol can be used as a substitute for methanol.

Spot-on, though, about those who will wait for the perfect solution to come along vs those that will take incremental steps. If everyone would take small steps in the right direction with technology and processes availabel to us today, we could stretch the supply of fossil fuels by quite a bit and save ourselves quite a bit of pain along the way. By "ourselves", I'm also including out kids and their kids, etc.

Here's another technology that I don't think has been mentioned - thermal depolymerization. Through this process, just about any feedstock can be turned into a petroleum substitute. A pilot plant was set up next to a Butterball turkey plant and used the waste products from there to produce oil. The process sounds like it holds promise to produce oil from garbage, especially waste like plastics which don't biodegrade.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_depolymerization

[John Mc]

Brian B-P wrote about my comments on the upcoming VW Tiguan--
I did, and it looks like it may be of interest to many FiberglassRV members. On the other hand, it doesn't look like anything special among the horde of small SUVs, except for likely availability of that turbodiesel, as well as favourite mechanical design of mine - the DSG transmission.

If it has a turbodiesel and a clutchless but mechanical transmissionn (without the power-wasting torque-converter) plus full-time AWD, that's pretty special, isn't it?

It's a darn shame that VW doesn't offer the TDI in another tow car. The Tourag is too expensive, and Passat TDIs don't come with manual transmissions and AWD, I think.

I can't show you figures that BD is completely carbon-neutral. The indredients have to be trucked around and processed. So does petroleum, to a greater degree. But the basic ingredient contains this year's carbon, not carbon dug up from millions of years ago. That's enough difference for me. It was a nice feeling watching our Golf TDI go over 10,000 miles last year using ZERO petroleum.

Did anyone see the PBS documentary on biofuels? There was a lot about BioWillie. Much publicity, but only a few dozen stations carry it, and only in B20 blends. The station they visited planned to drop it because truckers bought dino diesel by a 2-1 margin.

I thought biodiesel would be less attractive now that most of the sulfur is gone from the regular dino juice. But my bio supplier says there's increased interest in the stuff because of its improved lubricity.

[Brian B-P]

If it has a turbodiesel and a clutchless but mechanical transmissionn (without the power-wasting torque-converter) plus full-time AWD, that's pretty special, isn't it?...

Yes, it is a unique combination, and I am impressed by the DSG, but it may not be the ultimate towing transmission. I'm not criticizing the vehicle, just explaining why I'm not excited by it.

The [b]Direct Sequential Gearbox is basically a classic manual/standard gear transmission which shifts in a clever way. It has some interesting characteristics:

• It does not have a torque converter like a conventional automatic, but the losses of those converters are minimized by lock-up clutches which bypass them anyway; for instance, my Sienna is locked up most of the time on the highway. Also, that means the DSG does not have the torque multiplication of a torque converter available.
• Perhaps more importantly, it does not have the complex and power-robbing control hydraulics of the typical automatic, although I'm sure those are being refined for less and less power loss.
• The design is compact and thus allows a decent number of gear ratios in a normal-sized case, but conventional automatics are routinely 5-speeds, with many 6-speeds and one 8-speed (in the Lexus LS 460)
• The design is not clutchless, but the clutch action is automatic, so it is presumably clutch-pedal-less. In fact, it has two clutches, one for each of two input shafts, and swapping which clutch is engaged is how it shifts "directly" from one gear to the next without a power interruption.
• Just to make the packaging work, VW/Audi used two output shafts as well, both driving the same ring gear; that's a clever design feature which I admire, but it doesn't matter to efficiency.

Since the DSG does still have a relatively conventional clutch, it should have the same durability issues as any "manual" transmission for heavy-load or towing service, although moderated by the lack of risk due to driver incompetence with a clutch. In the end, I like the design, but do not feel it is especially well suited to towing; that's why to me a small SUV with a diesel and a DSG seems "special" in our context only because of the diesel.

Anyone interested in more detail on the DSG (including its PDK predecessor and the real inventor) might want to look at the excellent description by Audi at Audiworld, or the history at HowStuffWorks.

Any major manufacturer who wants to offer a turbodiesel small SUV can do so immediately; this is not a technical issue for them. The Jeep Liberty was one such option; it was popular, but not enough so for maintaining this combination to be a priority to Daimler Chrysler. In a larger size, you can now get a Jeep Grand Cherokee CRD to burn your biodiesel.

Edited the first bullet point for clarity.

[CD Smith]

You don't have to wait for a VW to get a transmission that disables the torque converter when towing.

[John Mc]

I love the Jetta and Beetle turbo diesels! But I like E-85 solutions even better. Biodiesel mixtures over B-20 gel at freezing temperatures, and I'd really rather get the lion's share of my fuel from non-fossil-fuel, non-import sources.

Don't be too put off by the gelling issue. I say this as a TDI owner who's dealt with it recently, but I can say it's a managable issue. Additives are available to fight gelling. Even if you use no Bio in winter, that leaves the shoulder seasons to use a blended mixture, and all summer to burn the beans. In Denver, I wind up burning about 50/50 dino- vs. bio-fuels over a full year, doubling my effective mileage on the fossil fuel. When towing, most of us prefer snow-free seasons and warm seasons. In two years, I haven't taken a Scamping trip that saw sub-freezing temps for more than a few pre-dawn hours.

It's a moot point, of course, until VW puts the TDI into a small SUV at a popular price. They say that's coming soon, but we'll see. If the diesel Forester comes first, I'll take that instead.