Help the confused mod!!!!

[Gina D.]

I am looking for the thread with the little point of use hot water heater someone installed.

I want to put a couple in my home and need to see how he connected it!

I am stumped.

[Chris B]

http://www.fiberglassrv.com/board/index.ph...3260&hl=instant
Is this it?

[Lee Hillsgrove]

Lance MacArthur's Blue Boler slide show has detailed photos of a point-of-use hot water dispenser.

[Gina D.]

Thanks, but this thread was specifically about the little heater and it's install.

[Brian B-P]

In Con's Boler Mods. thread, he had one post in which mentioned the Instant Hot Water Heater installation and provided PDF documents... but that's certainly not a dedicated topic. These heaters were also mentioned in two recent topics about the Coleman Hot Water On Demand, but without real installation information.

As shown in the Blue Boler pics, I think the water source for these heaters is usually a clamp-on tee fitting.

[Con]

Gina,
If you check my pics on Webshots and on my thread, also I sent the info on the Insinkerator hot water dispenser to Donna for the Helpful Links page. I used the smallest unit because of its compact size and it produces something like a gallon and a half of hot water and hour. They make many different sized units and if I had a 16' trailer I would probably have installed a bigger unit.

We found it was perfect for making soup, a cup of instant coffee, washing your hands or dishes with out having a big tank or using the water from our 10 gallon tank. I cut a tee into the city water feed, one to the hot water heater and the other to the right hand tap. That gives us our hot/cold water. The on board 10 gal. tank feeds to the diaphram pump which supplies the left hand tap. That is strictly cold water.

I suppose the sytem could be set up to run off a invertor/convertor setup if someone wanted to have it as a stand alone system. Our Boler dosn't have either of those so I optted to do it as mentioned.

The only thing is it is 110v and is hooked up to city water. That can of coarse be a draw back if you want a stand alone system for when you are boondocking.
So far I have been very pleased with it.
Last summer I found one little leak at one of my connectors but that is no big deal to fix.

Does that answer your question?

[Gina D.]

Thats not what I am looking for either

It is a small tankless point of use heater similar to this:

Point of use instant hot water

This isn't the one I was trying to find, but it's the same idea, a little more for home use.

And this it's what it's for, my unrolling home. It's time to replace my big ole gas guzzlin' heater which will involve some contruction. I firgured these would be.. cheaper, and gooder for a single person household.

[Con]

Ahhh Soooo! Now I understand! Very similular concept though.
They use a lot of those type of units in England & Europe. Years ago a friend of mine was trying to get import licences to bring a on demand shower gizmo from England. It was a very neat modern unit. The red tape they threw in his way was so fierce that he gave up. To this day I still don't see them in this country!

[CD Smith]

I bought the one I have from Sears. It provided enough hot water to make tea/instant coffee, wash your hands, and wash dishes, but not enough for shower.

The only problem with it was the water in the unit would evaporate and when you turned the hot water faucet on all you got was steam.

[Brian B-P]

...It is a small tankless point of use heater similar to this:

Point of use instant hot water

This isn't the one I was trying to find, but it's the same idea, a little more for home use.

And this it's what it's for, my unrolling home. It's time to replace my big ole gas guzzlin' heater which will involve some contruction. I firgured these would be.. cheaper, and gooder for a single person household.

Ah, a full-fledged demand-type heater, not just a beverage water dispenser. That's a lot of electrical demand, but I guess that's okay if you have a spare circuit space in your distribution panel, and are not right up against the total house electrical capacity. Don't laugh - I had a house with 60-amp service, just a tiny bit more than many RVs.

No little clamp-on tee fitting for this setup - I assume you would plumb it in exactly as the current tank-type heater.

I'm sure it would be cheaper than any gas-fired heater, as it is dead simple. As a tankless unit, it would also be small and light - although those things don't matter in a house.

Any electrical water heater makes no sense to me in a house with natural gas service and a convenient way to vent exhaust. Electricity is just very expensive energy, and it is spectacularly inefficient to burn fossil fuels to make heat to form steam to run turbines to turn generators to make power to transmit to a house... to make heat again.

Gina, are you sure you weren't thinking of a gas-fired (propane-fired) tankless heater thread? That's been discussed, too. A tankless gas-fired heater saves the energy consumption of keeping a big tank of water hot, so it has the same advantage as an electric demand water heater.

[Gina D.]

No little clamp-on tee fitting for this setup - I assume you would plumb it in exactly as the current tank-type heater.

I want electric ones. You haven't seen the natural gas prices here recently. I have taken to heating my house with ceramic heaters because it's CHEAPER than gas is now.

I also grew up in hydro electric land (Oregon). No fossil fuel burning to turn turbines.. a big old river does it ah natural.

Electric has been spotty, up and down here for a lot of years, but since I am a household of one, it's actually pretty cheap for me.

What isn't cheap is a constant flame under a 40 gallon tank that stays heated all day and nite when I only use the product in the am and evenings.

I was clothes in cold, with very rare exception.

The littler tanks like I am looking for SHOULD be an easy install with compression fittings, but I wanted to see the close ups of the one in the thread (it was electric, btw) before I made a final decision.

For some reason, Lowes and home depot make you order these things, none on the shelf. I don't like that.

[Elsie G.]

I want electric ones. You haven't seen the natural gas prices here recently. I have taken to heating my house with ceramic heaters because it's CHEAPER than gas is now.

I also grew up in hydro electric land (Oregon). No fossil fuel burning to turn turbines.. a big old river does it ah natural.

Electric has been spotty, up and down here for a lot of years, but since I am a household of one, it's actually pretty cheap for me.

What isn't cheap is a constant flame under a 40 gallon tank that stays heated all day and nite when I only use the product in the am and evenings.

I was clothes in cold, with very rare exception.

The littler tanks like I am looking for SHOULD be an easy install with compression fittings, but I wanted to see the close ups of the one in the thread (it was electric, btw) before I made a final decision.

For some reason, Lowes and home depot make you order these things, none on the shelf. I don't like that.

Hi Gina, just read your post and thought I'd throw in my 2 cents. We have an electric water heater that has a timer on it, it only heats up twice a day. AM for Renee, PM for me. We bought the smallest one we thought would meet our needs.... and it does!

[Lizbeth]

We have a gas on demand heater so that's no help other than to say we love it.

I'm loosing my mind too......I was hunting a thread that showed a shelf/counter extension toward the front of the trailer. I found Colin's but that's not the one. On with the hunt....

[Lynn Musgrave]

Hi Gina ......I have heard (from a friend that works there) that Home Depot has this type of system...most of their stores only stock one at a time ,but will order them for you. Now I never ask if the are gas or electric,but that would be a place to start your search. I have used this type system in Belgum and it is Great..........it might cost a lot to get it installed ( because of special venting needed) but in the long run I think it would be worth it. My parents used electric Hot water heater...............with one of those water heater blankets on it and a timer for years. They were pleased with that and always had enough hot water for what little they needed during the day and then the timer clicked on in time for baths.

Hope this helps.........Lynn

[Bill and Jacquie G.]

Gina

www.seisco.com ???


Bill

[Brian B-P]

I know that this is getting even further away from moulded fiberglass travel trailers, but I'd like to take the energy source issue a bit further, but tie it back to our trailers...

Often, the choice of energy source is straightforward availability: if boondocking in a trailer, propane is the only reasonable energy source to heat water (and air, and food), so that's what is usually used. In a house without gas service, electricity is the obvious choice for all energy needs. In either case, factors such as cost and efficiency aren't really issues.

Convenience is another important factor. If you're already plugged in, electricity just appears when it's needed, with no pilot lights, valves, etc.

I already mentioned efficiency. There's no question that the most efficient way to get heat is not to make it into electricity and back again. For fans of hydroelectric, wind, wave power, or any other source of electricity, I'll point out that as much power as is available from these sources is used; each additional bit of electrical energy that someone wants is produced by burning more coal, oil, or natural gas, or by running a nuclear reactor more.

Cost is a relative thing: if you're already paying for a powered campsite, the electricity is "free", no matter what it costs the campsite operator. Propane is cheap, but doesn't seem like it at the moment you're taking a tank for refill.

So realizing that there are all sorts of good reasons for specific choices, there is still the question of the actual cost of energy. Unless I have missed some important piece of information or made a calculation mistake, it seems to me that electricity - even in southern California - is much more expensive than natural gas. Here's my reasoning:

Los Angeles Water and Power says their current electrical charge is about ten cents per kilowatt hour (US$0.10/kW-h), which is 3600 kilojoules (3600 kJ) - the Joule is the basic unit of energy. So a buck buys about 36,000 kJ, which is 36 megajoules (MJ).

PG&E charges about $1 per therm, and a therm is 105,500 kJ, so a buck buys about 100,000 kJ, or 100 MJ.

So one buck spent on energy buys 36 MJ of electicity or 100 MJ of natural gas; to me, it's surprising how close they are, but even with some allowance for errors, and perhaps 80% efficiency in a gas water heater (versus almost 100% in an electric demand water heater) it seems that gas is significantly cheaper. Again, maybe I took a wrong turn somewhere and got the wrong result.

In a trailer, availability and convenience rule, but I think it makes sense to keep efficiency and cost in the back of the mind. At home, the balance is different. Either way, it's up to each of us to make the choice which is right for our situation.

[Gina D.]

Again, maybe I took a wrong turn somewhere and got the wrong result.

You are confusing PRICE vs. COST.

Currently, I have to use gas 24/7 to maintain 40 gallons of hot water at all times. (At best, 80% efficiency)

With an electric on demand tankless heater, I may pay a slightly higher PRICE per unit, but I am only using units WHEN I require the water. At, as you mention, nearly 100% efficiency.

Total time per day to apply the energy to get the water hot is minutes, MAYBE an hour.. vs. 24 hours. Less units of energy used = less total COST.

My gas bill last month, with using the heater sparingly, letting the electric take the brunt of space heating, was 121 bucks.

During the same time, my electric bill, using ceramic heaters, was $39. And keep in mind, during that time period, I was stuck in my house for over 3 days due to 3-4 feet of snow. It was cold outside!

Since I know the gas heater was not a huge factor in gas use, that only leaves one item to consume all those therms. The water heater.

[Benita]

Gina,

Try doing an internet search for "tankless water heater". I considered one when I was redecorating. At that time, most that would service my entire house cost in the $700 range. I see that there are now different sizes available.

http://www.plumbingsupply.com/index-tankle...terheaters.html

http://www.foreverhotwater.com/

http://www.tankless-water-heater.com/products.html

http://www.seisco.com/orderpage.html

http://www.chilipepperapp.com/tankless.htm

[Jackie]

Gina - try these out:
Stiebel
Ariston
InSinkErator

[Brian B-P]

You are confusing PRICE vs. COST.

Currently, I have to use gas 24/7 to maintain 40 gallons of hot water at all times. (At best, 80% efficiency)

With an electric on demand tankless heater, I may pay a slightly higher PRICE per unit, but I am only using units WHEN I require the water. At, as you mention, nearly 100% efficiency....

So there's the issue - what Gina's looking for is a demand-type (tankless) heater, for the reason she clearly describes (elimination of idling consumption). This would make sense in a trailer, too, where hot water isn't used very often.

There are both electric and gas tank-type heaters, and both electric and gas demand/tankless heaters. Since a gas demand heater can be expensive (due to the higher heating rate needed compared to a tank-type), I can see how the purchase cost of an electric unit could be a significant advantage.

The cost of a unit of energy is still less with gas. If the electric tankless uses so much less energy than a tank type that it overcomes electricity's unit price disadvantage, it would be cheaper to operate. An apples-to-apples comparison would be to consider a gas tankless unit, which would both avoid the idling consumption and use cheaper energy.

It was the [b]space heating comment which made me look at energy costs. There, the tank/tankless factor doesn't come in. If the gas water heater has really been the problem, then using electricity for space heating won't help. Having said that, many people heat with electricity because individual room heaters and their wiring (usually baseboard style) may be cheaper to install than a furnace and ducting, and they provide individual room control. The same logic may apply in a trailer - a cheap and compact electric heater may serve a trailer well (if not efficiently), and avoid a more expensive and involved furnace installation.