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11-10-2010, 03:52 PM
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#1
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Senior Member
Trailer: Eggcamper
Posts: 137
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Ideas Wanted - New Propane Install
After traveling nearly 10,000 miles in our egg this past year, we realize that having a propane furnace would be a great idea for us. We have a 2008 EggCamper, which is all electric - the 1000 watt heater works nicely, but we like to visit national parks (no electric) and they do not allow generator use at night. We have several adventures in mind such as Alaska, Nova Scotia, and northern Canada - so need to do something.
The Wave has been considered, but have concerns about smell and combustion by-products - after much research, have decided on the Atwood 8012 II because of its small size and it only draws 1.8 amps. Our egg's pod is only 96 sq ft so the 12,000 BTU input / 9,000 BTU output should be more than adequate to keep us warm.
I'm sure many forum members have modified and/or installed new propane - so figured why not draw on your vast body of experience? I have a tongue box , which holds our Honda EU2000i generator and a 20# LP tank. I am all for simplicity - so it doesn't have to be piped direct from the tongue box to the furnace, although I may do that in the end. I would be happy to just use a rubber LP line with a regulator and LP 'quick connect'. On reason I'm considering the flex hose is our grey tank is immediately below where the furnace will be located - so I was thinking ...what if I install a small outside hatch for 'connect access' and hose storage? I could set the tank at the rear bumper whenever we require heat.
I would really like to hear(and see photos) of how each of you have solved a similar problem. I am open to ideas about connections, furnaces and install suggestions - anything is acceptable feedback and will be taken into consideration.
Disclaimer: Yes, I know some of you will worry about me installing propane. I have extensive experience with electrical, plumbing and building and/or repairing just about anything. I plan to do appropriate joint leak testing and will install a certified LP alarm from Atwood. I will not hold anyone liable for offering suggestions - - I'm just looking for ideas which either support what I am thinking or help me think 'outside my box'.
Look forward to hearing from lots of you! Orlen Wolf should be of help, since he worked from scratch installing most items in his EggCamper - hope to hear from him.
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11-11-2010, 07:17 AM
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#3
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Senior Member
Trailer: Eggcamper
Posts: 137
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Buddy Heater
Thanks for your help Dave! Lots of people use them and like them - we do lots of high elevation camping and this is not made to use above 7000'.
Bill
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Storey
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__________________
'Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail.' - - Ralph W Emerson
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11-11-2010, 10:02 AM
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#4
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Senior Member
Trailer: Eggcamper 2007 ('Wolf's Lair')
Posts: 329
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Hi Bill
I'll try to get some pictures of my LP installation. It uses a Cu line run along the outside of the frame on the starboard side from the front to a point just forward of the axle, then through the floor to the furnace (and the rest of the LP appliances). The regulator and tanks are interconnected connected via a flexible line to the Cu line. I constructed a floating saddle assembly to hold the propane tanks inside of the tongue so I didn't have to weld to the frame.
BTW - I've been living in the EggCamper full time since the end of July. Leaving Illinois tomorrow for Colorado towing the camper. Will be heading for Arizona in about a week for Thanksgiving with my son's family.
73
Orlen
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12-02-2010, 02:31 PM
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#5
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Senior Member
Trailer: Eggcamper
Posts: 137
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Thanks to Orlen and others who have sent me tips and suggestions!
I have attempted to contact Berkon by email and phone 4 times on different days - today the website appeared to 'dead' - I'm sorry to say I think he went out of business. Yes, he was the least expensive at $360 and FREE shipping for the new Atwood 8012 II - darn! Let me know if anyone has a lead on a NEW or USED one in great condition. eBay 8012 II is selling for $400 with S/H as a best price - I would like to beat that if possible.
BTW - I found what I thought was a super buy on Craig's List - HydroFlame HF8012 for $145 (NOT the same as the above furnace - but an older cousin). Then I called the Atwood tech dept - they said stay away from the 'older' (1990s) pilot model, since they are not able to get any parts? Anyone have feedback for me? Seems like a pilot furnace should be reliable enough (heck, that's what we used for many years before electronic ignition) - it won't get used that often. If anyone on the board has personal experience with that model - good or bad I would sure like to hear back from you...
__________________
'Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail.' - - Ralph W Emerson
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12-02-2010, 02:44 PM
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#6
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Senior Member
Trailer: 16 ft Casita Spirit Deluxe
Posts: 1,043
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Bill
You mentioned the Wave catalytic heater..... I have one and there is no smell or by products with mine BUT I WOULD NOT USE IT FOR SLEEPING. Can't beat it or the mr buddy type heaters for day use to save on battery. I like the wave because it is silent and does a really good job and i run a rubber hose from the tank outside in thru the bottom of the entry door.....
I crack a bathroom window and a roof vent and have no moisture problem
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12-02-2010, 02:50 PM
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#7
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Senior Member
Trailer: Eggcamper
Posts: 137
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Thanks Joe -
We would like to have heat while sleeping, since we like to do lots of higher elevation, mountain and far-north camping. We have pretty much settled on an small, efficient furnace for those reasons. Just try to be frugal in the process - we are patient - I think something will come available, if we wait long enough.
__________________
'Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail.' - - Ralph W Emerson
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12-02-2010, 02:54 PM
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#8
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Senior Member
Trailer: 16 ft Casita Spirit Deluxe
Posts: 1,043
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I agree with you..... I have the furnace and wouldn't be without it but do use the wave in the daytime cause it's really quiet and warm in there and i got a really good deal on it that i couldn't pass up.
Joe
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12-02-2010, 08:29 PM
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#9
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Senior Member
Name: jim
Trailer: 2022 Escape19 pulled by 2014 Dodge Ram Hemi Sport
Pennsylvania
Posts: 6,710
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Bill, I'm planning on a Wave installation in the spring on my Egg for daytime heat and using 12v blanket at night. Some only draw 2 amps so for a 6 hour use I can recharge next day and recoup the 12 a/h lost.
Ps. Can you make the rally in Pocono's in July? I know you said June was not good but hopefully July is better.
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12-03-2010, 02:23 AM
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#10
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Senior Member
Name: James
Trailer: Uhaul CT-13
Ohio
Posts: 360
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How about a heater that is not hard lined? I just bought a Big Buddy Mr. Heater, runs off of two of the 1 lb bottles or can be hard lined to propane via an optional hose with low pressure regulator. The heater was re-conditioned and purchased from Cabelas website for $79.99. It works great and has low and high settings.
Nevermind, I saw the second post and yes this one (big buddy) is sub-7000ft too.
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12-04-2010, 10:32 AM
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#11
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Senior Member
Trailer: Eggcamper 17 ft Electric
Posts: 409
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Bill,
I would love to see how this project comes to fruition. I've been thinking of the same furnace for my EggCamper. Here in NH, none of the federal/state campgrounds have electric.
I had already moved the electric heater down to floor-level so that I could add a couple of drawers in the space where the electric heater was originally installed. My thoughts are to add a small (perhaps 5#) propane tank on the tongue. It looks like the Atwood 8012 would be almost a perfect fit in the spot now occupied by the electric heater.
It would also be great to see photos of your project.
Ron
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12-04-2010, 01:17 PM
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#12
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Senior Member
Trailer: 16 ft Casita Spirit Deluxe
Posts: 1,043
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Bill.....
I don't know much about furnaces or their pricing but i know this website at the following link is a good company to deal with as i have purchased from them before but the furnace that they have for sale on that site claims to use only 1.8 amps which is definately good so i just wanted to show you this just in case it interests you.
I just read some of the past posts and i see you already mentioned this furnace
Joe
Atwood Everest Star 8012 II Furnace, 12,000 BTUs - $438.99
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12-05-2010, 06:28 AM
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#13
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Senior Member
Trailer: Eggcamper
Posts: 137
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Thanks Orlen, Ron, Eddie and Joe -
I appreciate your interest and help! I have also received many PM giving advice.
I will definitely keep you posted on progress along the way. Some info I have picked up has been quite helpful - so I'll pass it on...
Initially, I had planned on buying the Atwood 8012 II from Berkon in Minnesota - he sold the furnace for only $360 - but appears he recently went out of business? The next good lead was Scamp site sells a 16K Suburban with the thermostat for $365 + S/H = $385. Then Eddie pointed me to Eastern Marine who sells the Atwood 8012 II for $399 + $19 S/H to Michigan. I got a bunch of help from Orlen - who has installed a Suburban from his old Rockwood popup - I think it is a 19K. Upon discussion he agrees that he would install a smaller one next time in his EggCamper.
So in summary to date, the Atwood 8012 II has the right output at 12,000 (9,000 BTU), which is equal to about three times the output of the EggCamper's electric factory heater of about 1,000w (1,000w = +/- 3,000 BTU). It also has the lowest amp draw at only 1.8 amps compared to 2.8 amps with the Suburban 16K that Scamp offers.
I will keep an open mind until I order a furnace, but for now I'm keeping my eyes peeled for the best buy on the 8012 II. I'll see if I can find a price that beats $399 - and maybe someone has a 'new' one they took out of their camper because they wanted something larger??
Anyone know what is happening with Berkon Industries? I have emailed and called twice - no response. He had great prices on vent kits - LP detectors - Tstat - etc.
Keep 'er coming - I can take it ;-)
Bill
__________________
'Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail.' - - Ralph W Emerson
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12-05-2010, 06:42 AM
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#14
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Senior Member
Trailer: Eggcamper
Posts: 137
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Ron -
I remember seeing your drawer mod - nice idea! Yes, the 8012 furnace should be a near-perfect fit for the heater opening - that's one more small advantage over the Suburban, which is 9.5" square vs the rectangle.
I put a Contico box on the tongue of our EggCamper - fits perfectly! It holds the Honda 2000i generator,crank, cord, funnel, etc and still has JUST enough room for a 20# LP tank. I cut out some 'webbing support' on the underside of the lid so it slips over the top of the 20# and 'locks' it in place.
I noticed that Menards (like Lowes) has a 'tall' 11# tank that is much smaller than a 20# in width and height - only $45. I'm toying with getting one if the 20# proves to be too tight of a fit, but would like to see how much fuel we would use before making changes.
Bill
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron F
I had already moved the electric heater down to floor-level so that I could add a couple of drawers in the space where the electric heater was originally installed. My thoughts are to add a small (perhaps 5#) propane tank on the tongue. It looks like the Atwood 8012 would be almost a perfect fit in the spot now occupied by the electric heater.
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__________________
'Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail.' - - Ralph W Emerson
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12-05-2010, 08:01 AM
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#15
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Senior Member
Trailer: 16 ft Casita Spirit Deluxe
Posts: 1,043
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12-06-2010, 06:49 AM
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#16
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Senior Member
Trailer: Eggcamper 17 ft Electric
Posts: 409
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Bill,
I love the EggCamper for it's flexible space. If you're handy, there are lots of options for customizing space.
I also have a Honda 2000i that I've used when off the grid, like most of the time in the state/fed campgrounds up here in the north. Eventually, I'd like to leave it home and use solar to recharge. Most of our cooking is done out of doors on a small propane stove, so the only real issue is heat in the early spring and fall months. The fridge is very efficient and the 8012 looks to be equally efficient. I think a few extra $ is worth it if I can run off the grid.
I haven't done all my homework on where to put a propane tank, and I'm not sure how long the 8012 will run on a small tank. But, I think that 12,000 btu is plenty for the size of the space.
I'm sorry that you won't make the Mid Atlantic Rally. I love to swap ideas on the EggCamper.
Ron
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Robison
Ron -
I remember seeing your drawer mod - nice idea! Yes, the 8012 furnace should be a near-perfect fit for the heater opening - that's one more small advantage over the Suburban, which is 9.5" square vs the rectangle.
I put a Contico box on the tongue of our EggCamper - fits perfectly! It holds the Honda 2000i generator,crank, cord, funnel, etc and still has JUST enough room for a 20# LP tank. I cut out some 'webbing support' on the underside of the lid so it slips over the top of the 20# and 'locks' it in place.
I noticed that Menards (like Lowes) has a 'tall' 11# tank that is much smaller than a 20# in width and height - only $45. I'm toying with getting one if the 20# proves to be too tight of a fit, but would like to see how much fuel we would use before making changes.
Bill
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12-06-2010, 09:23 PM
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#17
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Senior Member
Trailer: U-Haul VT16
Posts: 987
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron F
I haven't done all my homework on where to put a propane tank, and I'm not sure how long the 8012 will run on a small tank. But, I think that 12,000 btu is plenty for the size of the space.
I'm sorry that you won't make the Mid Atlantic Rally. I love to swap ideas on the EggCamper.
Ron
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If my web links are accurate, 1 gallon of LPG contains 91,690 BTUs. This gives a total of 433,693.7 BTUs of energy in a 5 gal 20 lb tank. That means your heater could run continuously at maximum 12k btu for about 48 hours. In practice I think you'll get a week to ten nights in very cold climates or a month of just taking the chill off.
Regards,
Matt
__________________
Planning our next Escape!
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12-09-2010, 01:24 PM
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#18
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Senior Member
Trailer: 1986 17 ft Bigfoot
Posts: 117
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We have a Mr. Heater Portable Buddy and have been happy with it as a backup to our furnace when we have limited electricity. Of course since it is not vented to the outside a window or vent needs to be opened a bit.
Mr. Heater Portable Buddy does not use electricity, but those 1# propane bottles are expensive! It will run from a 20# tank but the tank must stay outside. You can run a hose inside, but without a regulator you are bringing high pressure propane into the trailer through a potentially vulnerable hose. You can find a propane refill adapter that will allow you to refill 1# bottles from a 20# bottle, though the 20# bottle must be turned upside down. People have different opinions as to the safety of refilling 1# propane bottles.
Should you get a regulator to reduce the propane pressure from your 20# tank, the Mr. Heater Portable Buddy will not work without modification as it has its own regulator. A friend of ours bypassed the regulator in the Mr. Heater Portable Buddy so it will run from a low-pressure propane supply. Perhaps you might be able to find someone to do that for you. We have had no problems with this arrangement.
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12-30-2010, 07:05 AM
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#19
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Member
Name: Russ
Trailer: In the market
Pennsylvania
Posts: 59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Robison
Ron -
I remember seeing your drawer mod - nice idea! Yes, the 8012 furnace should be a near-perfect fit for the heater opening - that's one more small advantage over the Suburban, which is 9.5" square vs the rectangle.
I put a Contico box on the tongue of our EggCamper - fits perfectly! It holds the Honda 2000i generator,crank, cord, funnel, etc and still has JUST enough room for a 20# LP tank. I cut out some 'webbing support' on the underside of the lid so it slips over the top of the 20# and 'locks' it in place.
I noticed that Menards (like Lowes) has a 'tall' 11# tank that is much smaller than a 20# in width and height - only $45. I'm toying with getting one if the 20# proves to be too tight of a fit, but would like to see how much fuel we would use before making changes.
Bill
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Can I put my input here?
I just installed a 18,000 Btu which puts out 13,680 Btu's of heat. My furnace kicks on twice every hour. It stays on for about 12-13 minutes each hr. I keep the temps at 64-68. It takes about 25-27 min for the furnace to kick back on after it shuts off. I have been keeping records when I wake @ 3-7 am each day for the past three mornings since I installed it on Monday. However it uses 3.4 instead of 1.8. I would go up to at least the 16,000 BTU puts out 12,160 btu's to keep the same 1.8 battery output. I paid 404.00 from Atwood who shipped it at that price from Washington State to Pittsburgh, Pa.
A 12,000 puts out 9,160 Btu's A 6x10 trailer needs 1,080 Btu's to keep it warm. That's an uninsulated trailer.
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12-30-2010, 09:43 AM
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#20
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Senior Member
Trailer: Eggcamper
Posts: 137
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Joe, Ron, Matt, Tim and Russell -
Again, nice discussion! To bring everyone up-to-date in my situation...
I considered the eBay purchase mentioned above, but since I am so cheap (read frugal) I decided to go directly to the 'home' websites of some of the vendors offering the 8012 on eBay. I found Panther RV in WA to have a better price on their site than eBay. I ordered the 8012 including the black grill (match the fridge) and the C vent kit since I need the extra length (and by itself sells for $75) for $349 + $40 = $389 S&H. Furnace is scheduled to arrive Jan 4th. I did not order the thermostat or the LP/CO alarm from Panther, since they're S&H is outrageous - I can get them both on eBay.
Appreciate the BTU stats - I figure if the furnace is fired about 15 min out of 60 for 10 hours per day - 20# tank should last about 10-12 days? Less in much colder clim, but even if I only get a week of good heat from 20#I would be very pleased! Menards sells a 'tall' 11# tank for $45 - if everything works as planned I may get one for 'back-up' and outside cook stove to eliminate the 1# tank altogether? If I go that direction - I will have 30# LP, 105AH battery, 15 watt solar and 2000i Honda generator as back-up and/or battery charger - - that gives us a possible two to three weeks off grid potential ;-)
Regarding the 8012 choice - my first consideration was to keep 12v draw low as possible (1.8 amp is great), 2nd consideration was BTU output - I sought out opinion from Orlen who put a 19,000 BTU Suburban in his EggCamper kit and has put it to the test at LOW temps for extended periods of time. He told me next time he would go smaller for two reasons - use less LP and would cook you out ( he already owned the 19K Sub). He figures the 12K should be about right, as do I since the factory electric heater is 1,000 watt which is equal to about 3,000 BTU. The electric heater provided about 80% of what we needed at 12º F and the 12K provides 3 times the heat (9,160 BTU vs 3,000) of the electric heater. I'm trying to decide if I want to leave the electric heater installed along with the 8012 - I think I do.
I'm considering doing something like the attached mock-up for the install - cut out a complete section of fiberglass from galley top to floor - reinforce from the inside with wood strips - custom make a couple small drawers from the top (self-supporting and 22" deep) - not sure about the bottom section, but the new furnace will be in the middle. I will look around the egg to see if I can re-locate the elec heater to other than front of galley - that would make a nice storage spot. I don't really want the 'look' of the GFI and switch (for 1K heater) on the front of the galley - I can easily move them to a more functional and less obtrusive location. How about some feedback...
__________________
'Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail.' - - Ralph W Emerson
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