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Old 05-07-2014, 02:22 AM   #61
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A few notes about the thermo electric coolers.
If you are interested in a pre-built one, do yourself a favor and get a Koolatron.
Mine hold near freezing temps in almost any condition. I use a Koolatron P20 for long trips in my Suzuki. It fits behind the passenger seat sideways. We kept milk and fresh foods as well as cold energy drinks in it from Michigan to California and back again. We never worried about opening it too much, and actually had to defrost it twice by unplugging it when it was extremely humid out from a rain storm.

I left my Suzuki idling overnight for AC and to keep the cooler running. (Slept in the car, didn't have the Scamp yet for that trip!)
When we got home the milk was still fresh! It went 8k miles and spent a few weeks in the Koolatron. I have used it for years and it has never failed me. Other brands just don't compare. It is rated for 40 degrees below ambient, and will in-fact become a freezer if you keep it in a area that is too cool. However I have seen it go much below 40 difference when it is hot out. The usual temp is about 35-37 F.

This particular one blows the cool air downward so it isn't wasted every time you open it. Some models blow upwards and therefore out of the cooler. others have the peltier cooler on the door itself.


Okay so now a note on the home made ones! Something to keep in mind with these coolers is that one, they are not very efficient. They take power 100% of the time unlike phase change cooling.

Two, they exchange heat for cold quickly when turned off. The large heatsinks on the inside and outside of the cooler are connected with the peltier (or two) in-between.
As soon as you remove power from the cooler the warm and hot sides equalize. Then it is just a highway for the heat to travel right back into the cooler from that point on.

You can't run them then unplug them to save power because of this.
So here is where the home made comes in. Using PC water cooling components allows you to build a mini chiller. This breaks the connection between the inside and outside of your cooler setup. Once you power it off the water (coolant) stops flowing, so it stays cold. You also don't have to worry about frost build up requiring you to shut the system down every few days in humid weather. If you are interested in this setup let me know and I can help you out. I have lots of components needed for this available. Oh and one more pro to this is that the efficiency goes through the roof! The water cooling system brings the hot side of the peltier to almost exactly ambient, rather than much hotter like a simple aluminum heatsink. This GREATLY increases the achievable temp differential possible. This in turn allows you to use a thermostat like a compressor fridge, and the aforementioned break in the thermal path allows this to work.

I have modified an old coleman thermoelectric to this system and achieved freezing temps at only 65 watts, 50% duty, 75F ambient.
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Old 05-07-2014, 11:11 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenjiFox View Post

You can't run them then unplug them to save power because of this.
So here is where the home made comes in. Using PC water cooling components allows you to build a mini chiller. This breaks the connection between the inside and outside of your cooler setup. Once you power it off the water (coolant) stops flowing, so it stays cold. You also don't have to worry about frost build up requiring you to shut the system down every few days in humid weather. If you are interested in this setup let me know and I can help you out. I have lots of components needed for this available. Oh and one more pro to this is that the efficiency goes through the roof! The water cooling system brings the hot side of the peltier to almost exactly ambient, rather than much hotter like a simple aluminum heatsink. This GREATLY increases the achievable temp differential possible. This in turn allows you to use a thermostat like a compressor fridge, and the aforementioned break in the thermal path allows this to work.

I have modified an old coleman thermoelectric to this system and achieved freezing temps at only 65 watts, 50% duty, 75F ambient.
Interested in more info on the mini-chiller setup.......Any links you can direct me to on how it's often done for computers?
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Old 05-07-2014, 11:15 AM   #63
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#1: Had to stop and laugh at this: I asked for internal dimensions of an icebox. Got nearly 30 responses almost completely consisting of people's opnions on why they wouldn't want an icebox. Which DOES show Bob's point of how important a refrigerator is at resale!

I think I did figure out the answer myself. Formco #s their icebox models IB35 and IB75 after the internal capacity.....The IB 35 appearing to have approximately 3500 cubic inches of space, and the 75 having 7500 cubic inches.


So here's how we look at it:

95% of our trips will be 4 days or less. Probably 50+% will just be weekends. While we DO plan on doing some longer trips, not much plan for long term boondocking. Short term, yes. But a week+ away from anyplace without venturing out? No.

My wife doesn't like the current fridge. It works, but it's small.

I don't like worrying about venting the heat w/ propane, and the issues with outside vents leaking, etc.

We like simplicity. One could argue either is more simple. (Not worrying about ice could be simpler. Not worrying about whether a refrigerator works/needs propane, etc could be simpler)

We also will have a separate cooler that will stay in the car and/or outside the camper for beverages. We do this anyway, and thus need ice anyway. This also cuts down on number of times we open the cooler with more critical items/temps needed.

My wife isn't a fan of spending $700 for a fridge. (We'll use some of that savings to get a Propex heater instead of a new Atwood furnace. Smaller, quieter, less power usage, less heat cycling)

Cubed ice is easy to find, and usually cheaper than what was talked about here, at least around me. $2/bag at the state park we camped at last weekend. So refilling when needed doesn't seem to us to be that difficult.
We plan on doing the cat litter or similar container thing anyway, so 80% of the time should be on our own pre-made ice anyway.

We're removing the fridge in a couple weeks, and putting a cooler temporarily in the same spot. So I'll have all season to use it as an icebox and see how we do, and see if it works out as we'd like. I also plan on putting a datalogging thermometer in to see how temps go. Obviously this worked well enough in concept for decades, so we'll see how it goes for us this summer. If no real issues, I think we'll move forward with an icebox of SOME sort. Not sure if homemade, or if it will have a peltier in it as well, etc. yet.

Interesting to see how others view certain aspects. Like what was said earlier: Different strokes!
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Old 05-07-2014, 11:57 AM   #64
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Tell me more tell me more. that seems like a really good solution, and the only holes I would need to drill in my current cooler would presumably be for the liquid lines. Please post or send some pictures of your setup and a more detailed explanation of what you did. I understand the theory.
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Old 05-07-2014, 12:03 PM   #65
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Ice box different than cooler

The RV ice boxes are useless as people have pointed out since every time you open the door, any cold air you might have made in there simply drops out. This means your ice doesn't last very long. The three way fridges have the same problem, but have a lot more cooling power since they run on propane, so less of a problem. A cooler with a top opening works much better than the ice box and makes operating with no refrigerator possible and for some people (me) much better. The pimp electric refrigerators open on the top so they are much more efficient, also they are are quieter and more efficient to start with because.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate R View Post
#1: Had to stop and laugh at this: I asked for internal dimensions of an icebox. Got nearly 30 responses almost completely consisting of people's opnions on why they wouldn't want an icebox. Which DOES show Bob's point of how important a refrigerator is at resale!

I think I did figure out the answer myself. Formco #s their icebox models IB35 and IB75 after the internal capacity.....The IB 35 appearing to have approximately 3500 cubic inches of space, and the 75 having 7500 cubic inches.


So here's how we look at it:

95% of our trips will be 4 days or less. Probably 50+% will just be weekends. While we DO plan on doing some longer trips, not much plan for long term boondocking. Short term, yes. But a week+ away from anyplace without venturing out? No.

My wife doesn't like the current fridge. It works, but it's small.

I don't like worrying about venting the heat w/ propane, and the issues with outside vents leaking, etc.

We like simplicity. One could argue either is more simple. (Not worrying about ice could be simpler. Not worrying about whether a refrigerator works/needs propane, etc could be simpler)

We also will have a separate cooler that will stay in the car and/or outside the camper for beverages. We do this anyway, and thus need ice anyway. This also cuts down on number of times we open the cooler with more critical items/temps needed.

My wife isn't a fan of spending $700 for a fridge. (We'll use some of that savings to get a Propex heater instead of a new Atwood furnace. Smaller, quieter, less power usage, less heat cycling)

Cubed ice is easy to find, and usually cheaper than what was talked about here, at least around me. $2/bag at the state park we camped at last weekend. So refilling when needed doesn't seem to us to be that difficult.
We plan on doing the cat litter or similar container thing anyway, so 80% of the time should be on our own pre-made ice anyway.

We're removing the fridge in a couple weeks, and putting a cooler temporarily in the same spot. So I'll have all season to use it as an icebox and see how we do, and see if it works out as we'd like. I also plan on putting a datalogging thermometer in to see how temps go. Obviously this worked well enough in concept for decades, so we'll see how it goes for us this summer. If no real issues, I think we'll move forward with an icebox of SOME sort. Not sure if homemade, or if it will have a peltier in it as well, etc. yet.

Interesting to see how others view certain aspects. Like what was said earlier: Different strokes!
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Old 05-07-2014, 12:30 PM   #66
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I'm pretty sure our Parkliner came with the IB35 model as the outside dimensions look similar. We went that way as we didn't want propane onboard due to our style of venturing. That said, i agree with other posters who mentioned the units are only marginally usable for a "Cooler/Ice Box". Ours did do fine on the two trips we placed ~20lbs of crushed ice in it during ~75max temp 5 day outings. We also go out ~4 to 5 days between restock runs. What we do like alot are our two Engle Deep Blue 80qt coolers. They will keep a 20lb bag of ice for 7+ days with cooler temps never exceeding 40 degrees in mid 70 weather.
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Old 05-07-2014, 01:52 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by KenjiFox View Post
A few notes about the thermo electric coolers.

<cut>

I left my Suzuki idling overnight for AC and to keep the cooler running. (Slept in the car, didn't have the Scamp yet for that trip!)
When we got home the milk was still fresh! .
must have been back in the days of cheap gas and no laws stopping you from leaving your car idling for more than a few minutes.

These days after a week or so of camping the cost of the gas burned while leaving a vehicle idling over night in order to keep the cooler running would make a nice little down payment on an actual rv fridge Not to mention the fine for doing it..
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Old 05-07-2014, 07:45 PM   #68
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Went Camping/kayaking this past week end....day temps in the high 80's low 90's * F night temps in the 50/60 * F range.

For this trip I added a small Fridge fan that run on 2 D cell batteries( the package said they would last 30 days if run all the time)....I know that it kept my inside temp way down and I could always feel the air moving everytime I opened the door. It looks like this


RV Fridge Fan Refrigerator Air Fan Mini Fridge Circulation Battery Powered Refrigerator Fan



I got mine at my local camper sales place, have often seen them at WalMart .I have heard that you can use them inside coolers and my friend in Mi uses hers inside her 12V kooltron.


Someday we plan to do the outside vent fan mod,but for now will see how this works.


Hope this little bit of information helps someone.


Happy Camping
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Old 05-07-2014, 09:16 PM   #69
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That's the exact same type of fan I just tried out, with no success. Not sure why it helps some users and not others.

The fan I hung over the external vent, though, helped my fridge achieve a 45* temp differential today.
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Old 05-07-2014, 10:02 PM   #70
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That's the exact same type of fan I just tried out, with no success. Not sure why it helps some users and not others.

The fan I hung over the external vent, though, helped my fridge achieve a 45* temp differential today.
Actually Mike it may have been doing more than you think it was. I have one, as well as the the external fan on the outside vent and I know from having forgotten to turn the inside fan on a few times that it does indeed make a difference. Put it in the middle of the bottom of the fridge and leave a few spaces of clear space on the shelfs above to allow the air to move though an it will make a difference but not as big as the outside fan does as you have noted... but every little bit helps.
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Old 05-08-2014, 12:06 AM   #71
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must have been back in the days of cheap gas and no laws stopping you from leaving your car idling for more than a few minutes.

These days after a week or so of camping the cost of the gas burned while leaving a vehicle idling over night in order to keep the cooler running would make a nice little down payment on an actual rv fridge Not to mention the fine for doing it..
Actually that was back in the day of August 2012. Middle of the heat wave, right through the hottest deserts we have. Gas was nowhere near cheap :/

However, I built an arduino powered MPG monitor that I have hooked to the VSS and fuel injector lines. With this I can monitor how many GPH my injectors are using, and see a real time calculation of whatever I want to program in on the LCD. My little 1.6l Suzuki idles at about 0.18 GPH. For the comfort of AC and electricity for fresh food that works out to be quite inexpensive even at todays prices. The engine is bulletproof and never overheats or anything, and I built the AC system for the vehicle myself for that trip specifically. It didn't have AC from the factory. I don't run your typical refrigerant... So it takes a lot less energy than say R134a or even R12. Can't say much else about that publicly however.

I have idled my vehicle everywhere from NY to CA and averywhere in-between. While I dislike being anything but green, my engine is so small that it is less harmful than most gensets that lack catalytic converters and EGR systems. I also customized my EGR and added a second charcoal canister to handle the extended idle. So far it hasn't killed my catcon, but I use a small one so it is easier to keep heated. Never been bothered by anyone about fees. I thought that only applied to the big rigs?


At any rate I apologize for any form of thread derailing. I will collect some photos and other info about the chiller setup. I have a lot of water cooling components such as waterblocks pumps and radiators. The radiator is 120mm square.
I may build some and sell them to whomever would like one. I also plan on making a batch of my furnace fan quieting controllers and offering them to you guys here. They are programmed to slowly ramp the fan up to a lower total speed (selectable with a dial) to avoid power waste and loud jarring when you try and sleep. I haven't gotten around to making any more than my first one! They use PWM at 16khz or so for efficiency. No whine either.

Once I have some more time I will get you guys the info on the peltier cooling system for the custom iceboxes. I only built one of them as a fun thing to do. At this point I think it may be a good idea to build a nice kit with a thermostat and all. All you would need is 12v and two holes for the insulated lines to go into the cooler. Easy peasy.
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Old 05-08-2014, 08:40 AM   #72
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I have idled my vehicle everywhere from NY to CA and averywhere in-between. <cut>
Never been bothered by anyone about fees. I thought that only applied to the big rigs?
<cut>
At any rate I apologize for any form of thread derailing. .
No need to apologize you have put forward information on yet another option for the OP.

The anti-idealing laws here are in most areas for anything over 3 min for passenger vehicles and the big rigs and buses have different rules. Looks like in CA the anti idling law is 5 min - didn't read far enough through it or the details re the bigger rigs. To be honest though I have only seen any sign of enforcement of it twice since it came into effect - once while waiting at the border crossing (they have installed stop lights in the line up area to hold the lines up for extended periods, so you are not doing constant stop and go so no need to leave the engine running) and another time in a ferry terminal parking lot - in both cases they have lots of signage up warning about it.

I suspect if one was to run a car over night in a Provincial park you would be dinged if one of your neighbours complained. Pretty high likelihood of that happening as most of our campgrounds have no power and there is at ever growing dislike to generator noise at any time of day and you don't hear AC's running in big rigs over night all to often either due to their power consumption.
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Old 05-08-2014, 04:22 PM   #73
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Actually Mike it may have been doing more than you think it was. I have one, as well as the the external fan on the outside vent and I know from having forgotten to turn the inside fan on a few times that it does indeed make a difference. Put it in the middle of the bottom of the fridge and leave a few spaces of clear space on the shelfs above to allow the air to move though an it will make a difference but not as big as the outside fan does as you have noted... but every little bit helps.
Well, the fridge interior was 51* around 4 pm, so I went out and put in the fan (turned on, of course). The inside temp went to 59* and at bedtime it was still 54*. This was the day before I tried the external fan.
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Old 05-08-2014, 04:47 PM   #74
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Well, the fridge interior was 51* around 4 pm, so I went out and put in the fan (turned on, of course). The inside temp went to 59* and at bedtime it was still 54*. This was the day before I tried the external fan.
Weird, perhaps the jump in temp was due to opening the fridge to turn the fan on? I recall seeing photos here where people had put plastic panels with slits in them over the front inside of the fridge to prevent the cold air from escaping when opening the door due to the length of time it takes to get it back down in temp.
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Old 05-08-2014, 05:16 PM   #75
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Well, the fridge interior was 51* around 4 pm, so I went out and put in the fan (turned on, of course). The inside temp went to 59* and at bedtime it was still 54*. This was the day before I tried the external fan.
Temperature is probably the difficult thing to measure, particularly air inside a closed box. Without large air movements to mix the air there's always large temperature gradients, meaning different temperatures in different parts of the box. When I was working with IR thermometers we ran tests to determine how long we should wait to take temperature readings. These boxes felt like a gale when you opened the door. With a large amount of air moving it took minimum 4 hours for temperatures to stabilize. Since there is very little air movement I would guess it would be closer to 24 - 48 hours for the temperature to stabilize.
This is the main reason manufactures recommend that the refrigerator be cooled down for 24 hours before use. Once the inside walls are cold it takes a lot longer for them to warm up. When you open the door the cold air comes out and the temperature reading goes up, remember you're measuring air temperature.
If you really want to know what's going on inside the refrigerator get container of liquid (NIST uses a light oil, but water is better than nothing) put a temperature probe in center of the liquid. Then you can observe how that changes over time.
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Old 05-08-2014, 06:43 PM   #76
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BTW, for those who are looking for ice, here is a search page for "Twice the Ice" dispensing machines. Over 2,300 Twice The Ice Machines Throughout The US - Ice House America These machines are not everywhere, but if you do have one along your travel route it is worth a stop. The ones I've seen had block or cubes, and they dispense more than the usual amount of ice for the money.

Carol, yes it was opening the door that lost a bunch of coolness, I'm sure. And it was 90* out, so the fridge never recovered until sometime in the night (it was 37* the next morning at 7 a.m.). I had the thermometer on the bottom shelf of the door; I would think that the temp with the fan running could have been more uniform throughout the fridge than prior (with fan not on).
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Old 05-08-2014, 07:17 PM   #77
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[QUOTE=Mike Magee;457266

Carol, yes it was opening the door that lost a bunch of coolness, I'm sure. And it was 90* out, so the fridge never recovered until sometime in the night (it was 37* the next morning at 7 a.m.). I had the thermometer on the bottom shelf of the door; I would think that the temp with the fan running could have been more uniform throughout the fridge than prior (with fan not on).[/QUOTE]

Is it safe to assume it was also an empty fridge as well? Having items in it that are still cool should help it with the air movement over them created by the fan to recover a bit faster.
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Old 05-09-2014, 06:14 PM   #78
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Carol, I had 2/3 gallon of water inside; nothing else. I figured at the time that the water was enough to mimic the chill holding characteristics of typical contents.
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