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10-21-2012, 09:30 PM
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#21
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Commercial Member
Trailer: We have had all the brands at least once.
Posts: 801
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I found the problem the 7-pin connector cable had a cut in it where someone before me cut and spliced the wires together. Two wires were not connected the black 12v and the green RT. Tomorrow it will be repaired properly.
Thanks for all the help.
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10-22-2012, 09:17 AM
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#22
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Senior Member
Name: Jon
Trailer: Escape 21C
New York
Posts: 2,387
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An "interesting" problem comes with the advent of LED exterior lights - they draw so little current that an unplugged trailer connector resting on moist leaves, ground, or open to falling rain, etc can make them "glow".
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10-22-2012, 09:46 AM
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#23
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Senior Member
Name: Steve
Trailer: 2018, 21ft escape— 2019 Ram 1500 Laramie
NW Wisconsin
Posts: 4,500
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Frame ground ?
My Scamp has a # 8 bare wire run from the converter NEG to the frame Of the trailer (Chassis Ground) . What I question is the fact that the 120 VAC 30 amp power cord has a green equipment grounding conductor but that conductor is only tied to the equipment grounding conductors in the branch circuit cables. The frame of the trailer is not effectively grounded so the frame could become energized and not trip the 120 VAC over current device. If you standing on the wet ground and put your foot on the metal steps YOU become the ground path. Scamp says the trailer is isolated by the tires yet on mobile homes all the frames are effectively grounded (Bonded) to the service cables equipment grounding conductor to prevent shocks from frame to earth
The 30 amp receptacles at most campgrounds are not GFCI protected so no help there
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10-22-2012, 09:52 AM
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#24
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Senior Member
Trailer: Trillium 2010
Posts: 5,185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Vermilye
An "interesting" problem comes with the advent of LED exterior lights - they draw so little current that an unplugged trailer connector resting on moist leaves, ground, or open to falling rain, etc can make them "glow".
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That is interesting. You must have LED marker lights. My brake lights are LED and draw about 1/2 an amp as I recall. Too high I suspect but the smaller marker lights are a different story. Raz
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10-22-2012, 10:41 AM
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#25
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Senior Member
Trailer: Trillium 2010
Posts: 5,185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve dunham
My Scamp has a # 8 bare wire run from the converter NEG to the frame Of the trailer (Chassis Ground) . What I question is the fact that the 120 VAC 30 amp power cord has a green equipment grounding conductor but that conductor is only tied to the equipment grounding conductors in the branch circuit cables. The frame of the trailer is not effectively grounded so the frame could become energized and not trip the 120 VAC over current device. If you standing on the wet ground and put your foot on the metal steps YOU become the ground path. Scamp says the trailer is isolated by the tires yet on mobile homes all the frames are effectively grounded (Bonded) to the service cables equipment grounding conductor to prevent shocks from frame to earth
The 30 amp receptacles at most campgrounds are not GFCI protected so no help there
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Well you got me curious. On my trailer there are no connections to the trailer frame and the AC and DC sections are completely isolated. Further, the Progressive Dynamics installation guide that came with the trailer gives a nice picture of the connection points, a table of wire size combinations for neutral and ground wires, and the terminal torques. Actual wiring, you're on your own. Raz
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10-22-2012, 10:43 AM
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#26
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Moderator
Trailer: 2009 19 ft Escape / 2009 Honda Pilot
Posts: 6,224
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I completely agree with Thomas and Raz that all tow lights should have the negative run right back to the connection to the tow. Companies that connect the negative lead from a light to ground, and use the chassis as a conductor, are just being cheap, and creating a couple more points for failure of the circuit.
As I mentioned in another thread, I believe that DC circuits should be looked at as using only a positive and negative conductor to complete a circuit (just like a flashlight). In a vehicle where they ground for safety reasons, the ground should not be looked at, or used, as a conductor.
Man, I get caught up in these digressions from the original topic way too easily.
__________________
2017 Escape 5.0 TA
2015 Ford F150 Lariat 3.5L EcoBoost
2009 Escape 19 (previous)
“Most folks are about as happy as they make up their minds to be.” — Abraham Lincoln
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10-22-2012, 10:44 AM
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#27
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Senior Member
Trailer: 2002 19 ft Scamp 19 ft 5th Wheel
Posts: 3,640
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To steve dunham: In the military the mil spec is to put in a ground stake at the generator and again at the van that the power is connected to. Should you read a commercial generator instructions they state you should use a ground stake at the generator (Nobody Does) and of course the camper frame should be grounded also although the instruction manuals will not state this and again, nobody does.
Our Scamp had the DC and the AC ground connected at the same place and it also went from the converter to the frame. Check the Scamp schematic and you will see the ground symbol with no explanation where that connection really is.
Cary a Electrical Receptacle Tester With GFCI Diagnosis and test the camp ground power B 4 you connect your camper to it. It will tell you if the Camp Ground is wired correctly.
Electrical Receptacle Tester with GFCI Diagnosis
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10-22-2012, 10:48 AM
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#28
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Senior Member
Trailer: 2002 19 ft Scamp 19 ft 5th Wheel
Posts: 3,640
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Raz, The Scamp electric brakes use the frame as the negative path. Do you have electric brakes?
On aluminum clad stickies the running lights use the aluminum as a path (Cheep way of doing things)
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10-22-2012, 11:00 AM
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#29
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Senior Member
Trailer: 92 16 ft Scamp
Posts: 11,756
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darwin Maring
Raz, The Scamp electric brakes use the frame as the negative path. Do you have electric brakes?
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Darwin as you suggest Scamp does use the frame for the brake grounds and do it right beside the hub on each side, there can be problems as a result of that though. If the ground attachment point gets at all rusty it can result in brakes that work one minute but dont the next. Dexter's trouble shooting guide suggests its better if the ground goes all the way back to the trailers main grounding point. Dont ask how I found that out!
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10-22-2012, 11:05 AM
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#30
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Senior Member
Trailer: Trillium 2010
Posts: 5,185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darwin Maring
Raz, The Scamp electric brakes use the frame as the negative path. Do you have electric brakes?
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yes, the trailer has brakes. No connection to the frame I'm happy to say.
Edit-Come to think of it, the brake connection on the Scamp explains why they use the 8 gauge chassis ground.
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10-22-2012, 11:06 AM
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#31
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Senior Member
Name: Francesca Knowles
Trailer: '78 Trillium 4500
Jefferson County, Washington State, U.S.A.
Posts: 4,669
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Vermilye
An "interesting" problem comes with the advent of LED exterior lights - they draw so little current that an unplugged trailer connector resting on moist leaves, ground, or open to falling rain, etc can make them "glow".
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This is the closest answer yet to why my running lights came on when I turned on the interior lights...
I see now that I forgot to mention the most perplexing (to me) detail of that very educational experience:
Although they're on the same circuit as the running lights, the taillights didn't light up!
I was so mystified by this phenomenon that I posted a question about it at IRV2, and here's the answer I got, here quoting IRV2 Member Paul Haller:
" With a bad ground the electricity is looking to get back home to the battery any way it can. It will always choose the path of least resistance. Your LED light draws almost no current or amps. The Filiment in the tail lights gives off way more heat then light and as a result more amps and more resistance to flow. When turning on the light in the trailer the current followed Ohms law and followed the path of least resistance through the LED but not the tailights. "
How simple and brilliant is that for an explanation? And in language I understood, too...no small thing to an electrical Moron like me
Here's a link to that thread in case anyone's interested in reading the rest of it:
Electrical Weirdness - iRV2 Forums
Onward through the fog....
Francesca
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10-22-2012, 03:50 PM
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#32
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Senior Member
Name: Jon
Trailer: Escape 21C
New York
Posts: 2,387
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Check the NEC Article Covering RVs - Article 551
Steve & Raz - is there a bond between the converter case & the trailer frame in your trailers? If not, there should be.
While there should not be a bond between the neutral & the trailer frame, the enclosure must be bonded to the chassis (frame).
Here is NEC 551.20 (C):
"(C). Bonding Voltage Converter Enclosures - The noncurrent-
carrying metal enclosure of the voltage converter
shall be connected to the frame of the vehicle with a minimum
8 AWG copper conductor. The voltage converter shall
be provided with a separate chassis bonding conductor that
shall not be used as a current-carrying conductor."
Article 551.56 covers the 120V side of things -
"551.46 Bonding of Non-Current-Carrying Metal Parts.
(A) Required Bonding. All exposed non-current-carrying
metal parts that may become energized shall be effectively
bonded to the grounding terminal or enclosure of the distribution
panelboard.
( Bonding Chassis. *That is suppose to be a "B" not a smiley*
A bonding conductor shall be connected
between any distribution panelboard and an accessible
terminal on the chassis. Aluminum or copper-clad aluminum
conductors shall not be used for bonding if such conductors or
their terminals are exposed to corrosive elements.
Exception: Any recreational vehicle that employs a unitized
metal chassis-frame construction to which the distribution
panelboard is securely fastened with a bolt(s) and
nut(s) or by welding or riveting shall be considered to be
bonded.
There is more that covers things like gas lines, metal roofs, furnace & ducts, etc but the end result is that the ground system of the trailer must be connected to the chassis (frame).
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10-22-2012, 04:07 PM
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#33
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Senior Member
Trailer: 2002 19 ft Scamp 19 ft 5th Wheel
Posts: 3,640
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This is the closest answer yet to why my running lights came on when I turned on the interior lights...
I see now that I forgot to mention the most perplexing (to me) detail of that very educational experience:
Although they're on the same circuit as the running lights, the taillights didn't light up!
They Are NOT on the same circuit.
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10-22-2012, 06:18 PM
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#34
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Senior Member
Name: Francesca Knowles
Trailer: '78 Trillium 4500
Jefferson County, Washington State, U.S.A.
Posts: 4,669
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darwin Maring
This is the closest answer yet to why my running lights came on when I turned on the interior lights...
I see now that I forgot to mention the most perplexing (to me) detail of that very educational experience:
Although they're on the same circuit as the running lights, the taillights didn't light up!
They Are NOT on the same circuit.
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Yes- they are: Please take a look at the wiring diagram for the early Trilliums located here in the document center.
__________________
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10-23-2012, 06:41 AM
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#35
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Senior Member
Trailer: Trillium 2010
Posts: 5,185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Vermilye
Steve & Raz - is there a bond between the converter case & the trailer frame in your trailers? If not, there should be.
bme).
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Absolutely no electrical connection to the frame on our Trillium. At home we power through a GFCI and we don't use shore power on the road, don't even take a cord. But if I decide to ever sell I will connect one. Thanks for doing the research. Raz
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10-23-2012, 09:02 AM
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#36
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Senior Member
Name: Francesca Knowles
Trailer: '78 Trillium 4500
Jefferson County, Washington State, U.S.A.
Posts: 4,669
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P. Raz
The tail lights and running lights should be on the same circuit powered by the tow vehicle battery. The interior lights should be on a separate circuit powered by the trailer battery.
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I'm not sure how this even came up! Everything in my trailer is wired correctly, and as described above, as I thought I'd indicated... no connection between exterior/interior lights EXCEPT that they share the common trailer groundwire.
Strange symptoms aside, the fault in my case was neglecting to connect the new taillights directly to the trailer ground, instead relying on the metal body of the bumper box. Since I corrected this, everything's worked fine.
__________________
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10-23-2012, 10:32 AM
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#37
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Commercial Member
Trailer: We have had all the brands at least once.
Posts: 801
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deb & Chuck
A friend contacted me when she arrived home last evening her Bigfoot 19 marker lights were on. The trailer is not hooked up to shore power or tow vehicle. Any ideas?
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Found the problem. Trailer light plug in cable had a large gash in it exposing the wires. It is all repaired now.
Chuck
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10-23-2012, 11:25 AM
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#38
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Senior Member
Name: Francesca Knowles
Trailer: '78 Trillium 4500
Jefferson County, Washington State, U.S.A.
Posts: 4,669
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deb & Chuck
Found the problem. Trailer light plug in cable had a large gash in it exposing the wires. It is all repaired now.
Chuck
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Thanks for the latest update O.P.!
Now to Miss Curiosity's big question for anyone still listening: Why did that gash/exposed wires on the pigtail of a disconnected trailer cause the markers to come on?
Francesca, too cheap to go to school and pay for her own education
__________________
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10-23-2012, 11:30 AM
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#39
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Senior Member
Trailer: No Trailer Yet
Posts: 5,112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Francesca Knowles
Thanks for the latest update O.P.!
Now to Miss Curiosity's big question for anyone still listening: Why did that gash/exposed wires on the pigtail of a disconnected trailer cause the markers to come on?
Francesca, too cheap to go to school and pay for her own education
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My guess is that when the wire was gashed, some of the copper strands were overlapped between the wire carrying 12 volts (from TV to trailer battery) and the wire carrying power from the TV to the marker lights.
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10-23-2012, 11:38 AM
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#40
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Senior Member
Name: Francesca Knowles
Trailer: '78 Trillium 4500
Jefferson County, Washington State, U.S.A.
Posts: 4,669
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas G.
My guess is that when the wire was gashed, some of the copper strands were overlapped between the wire carrying 12 volts (from TV to trailer battery) and the wire carrying power from the TV to the marker lights.
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But- the opening post says:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deb & Chuck
A friend contacted me when she arrived home last evening her Bigfoot 19 marker lights were on. The trailer is not hooked up to shore power or tow vehicle. Any ideas?
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