need high temp gasket for furnace - ideas?

[David Tilston]

Originally Posted by Carol H

The simple fact is more than 400 people a year in the US die from unintentional CO poisoning, more than 20,000 visit the emergency room and more than 4,000 are hospitalized due to CO poisoning. (numbers provided by www.CDC.org) Those are no vague facts. Its as I am sure you are aware why the furnace in question is no longer made or installed for RV's. Pretty simple it does not have adequate venting and puts people at a higher risk to carbon monoxide poisoning than newer RV furnaces that have fans.

I read the linked to FAQ. While the numbers quoted are there, there was no information about the source of the danger. The possibility's seem endless. One article, on the same site, discussed a CO fatality from underground blasting fumes leaking up through the ground, weird. CO poisoning is commonly associated with the operation of an automobile. I suspect a large proportion of the deaths are from this source. Do you suggest that we stop using cars?

I don't dispute the dangers of CO. I have my kids in that trailer. I simply object to the idea that this type of heating is any more dangerous than any other type of furnace. I believe gravity furnaces to be in many ways safer then forced air furnaces. There are fewer things to go wrong, they don't depend on the operation of a fan to vent the CO.

These type of furnaces are still made, just not for RV's:
http://www.empirezoneheat.com/assets...,215)-10SG.pdf

This design is almost exactly like the furnace in my trailer. Do you think there is something special about the RV application that makes them more dangerous then domestic use? The only thing that would stop me from installing the linked furnace in a trailer is that the vent sticks out like 3".

It is my position that, with the use of a properly maintained and tested CO alarm, a 40 year old, inspected gravity furnace, is just as safe as any other combustion based heating appliance. And by inspected, I don't mean it is necessary to have a furnace expert look at it. I think almost anyone could determine if the heat exchanger is in danger of leaking.

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by David Tilston

CO poisoning is commonly associated with the operation of an automobile. I suspect a large proportion of the deaths are from this source. Do you suggest that we stop using cars

Nope but I don't sleep in my car with the engine running either

[AKSCAMP]

Fwiw, i took a pic of my suburban 6-34 / GT-6
Complete with computer fan that blows upward.
Look at that pretty burner
Also, i find it too cold to Scamp in less than 20 deg F.

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by AKSCAMP

Complete with computer fan that blows upward.

Hope thats a typo and you meant outward?

You do have a pretty box but the box as far as I am aware is not the issue with these old units - its the state of the actual burners and the exhaust and intact vents or lack there of.

[David Tilston]

I am not sure how whether you sleep in your car, or not would make any difference. Dead is dead. Some die from the fumes of a car idling outside the fresh air intake on their house, (no link just something I remember).

I think my point was that all this concern about the safety of gravity feed furnaces in an RV is based entirely on conjecture. A blanket statement like, "I think that anything connected to the LP system that's been bouncing down the road for 40 years has outlived it's useful life." is just not very helpful.

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by David Tilston

A blanket statement like, "I think that anything connected to the LP system that's been bouncing down the road for 40 years has outlived it's useful life." is just not very helpful.

Very true but I would suspect that most people would give second thought to a product design that can no longer be legally sold and installed into an RV and one that a licences propane installer will not touch for any amount of money - at least those who value their licence will not. Thats the kind of thing what is helpful to me to know when making educated decisions on whether I feel good about using something or not.

[David Tilston]

I was not aware that licensed propane installers had a problem with these furnaces. I guess the folks at Trillium / Outback are not licensed then, or don't value their licence. Odd for a manufacturer of trailers.

[Bob Miller]

Originally Posted by David Tilston

I am not sure how whether you sleep in your car, or not would make any difference. Dead is dead. Some die from the fumes of a car idling outside the fresh air intake on their house, (no link just something I remember).

I think my point was that all this concern about the safety of gravity feed furnaces in an RV is based entirely on conjecture. A blanket statement like, "I think that anything connected to the LP system that's been bouncing down the road for 40 years has outlived it's useful life." is just not very helpful.

First.... All any one can offer here is "Opinion" and each opinion can be weighed by the recipient as it it's validity. When I say "I think" that's the extent of my opinion. If someone values my opinion(s), the opinion becomes helpful, if not, they look for other opinions, usually ones they like....

Now, I contacted "Pete" in technical support at Williams Furnace Co, Colton, CA, a manufacturer of gravity feed LP furnaces, none of which are legal for use in RV's, and asked him for a reply about using gravity feed furnaces in RV's

He reiterated that it had been deemed unsafe to use this type of furnace in moving or moveable devices such as RV's for years, as stated in the NFPA-54, National Fuel Gas Code Rules and Regulations.....period.

In the world of furnaces in the US of A, that's pretty much the end of the discussion. As Sheldon might say, it's axiomatic.

Now, it only makes sense if something that was legal 40 years ago is illegal today, that one might think that continuing it's use might not be in ones best interest. This almost begs the question if it was ever safe to use.....

NFPA 54 may not carry any legal weight north of the border, but down here it's prety much respected and followed.

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by David Tilston;439486.

Odd for a manufacturer of trailers.

Yup it is. All I can tell you is that there are other highly respected RV repair folks in my area (in BC) who have turned down doing repairs on more than one old trailer with a gravity propane furnace.

No one says you have to agree David as to whether they are safe to use or not.

As I said I only wishing to make sure that those new to these trailers understand that the old gravity propane furnaces are no longer made or legally installed in new trailers. Simple as that.

[David Tilston]

I just took a look at NFPA-54:
https://law.resource.org/pub/us/code...pa.54.2006.pdf

An excerpt:
1.1.1.2 This code shall not apply to the following items (reference standards for some of which appear in in Annex L):
(18) Fuel gas systems on recreational vehicles manufactured in accordance with NFPA 1192, Standard on Recreational Vehicles.

Guess I shall now go read NFPA 1192.

Hmm....
I took a look at:
http://www.nfpa.org/Assets/files/Abo..._F2013_FDR.pdf

The words "direct vent" occur four times in the standard, all on the same page, (24):
5.4.6 Requirement for Direct Vent System Appliances.
5.4.6.1 All fuel-burning appliances, except ranges and ovens, shall be designed and installed to provide for the complete separation of the combustion system from the interior atmosphere of the recreational vehicle.
5.4.6.2 Combustion air inlets and flue gas outlets shall be listed as components of the appliance.
5.4.6.3 The required separation shall be obtained by the installation of direct vent system (sealed combustion system) appliances.
5.4.6.4 A fuel-burning refrigerator shall be permitted to be installed to meet the requirements of 5.4.6, using panels supplied by the recreational vehicle manufacturer, provided that the refrigerator manufacturer furnishes the necessary vents and grilles as specified by the listing requirements and, in addition, the refrigerator is equipped with the necessary means to ensure the integrity of the separation of the combustion system when the refrigerator is removed for field service and reinstalled.
5.4.6.5 A fuel-burning appliance shall not need to be of the direct vent type, provided that it conforms to all of the following:
(1) It is a vented appliance.
(2) It incorporates provisions for introduction of combustion air from outside the vehicle.
(3) It incorporates a safety control system that prevents burner operation under any operating conditions that allow products of combustion to discharge into the interior of the recreational vehicle.
(4) It incorporates provisions either integral to the appliance design or by use of a safety control system(s) to protect against ignition of flammable materials that could come into contact with any heat source or part of the appliance.
(5) It is listed for recreational vehicle installation and is installed with the terms of the listing.
5.4.7 Exterior Appliances.
First Revision No. 14:NFPA 1192-2011
[FR 31: FileMaker]
5.4.7.1 Exterior Ffuel-burning appliances installed or intended to be used only outside the and attached to recreational vehicles shall be listed for recreational vehicle use but shall not be required to be of the direct vent, sealed combustion type.
5.4.7.2 The installation shall preclude the possibility of appliance operation or propane flow when the appliance is in its storage (travel) position.
5.4.7.3 The appliance manufacturer shall specify clearance to adjacent surfaces as applicable in both the operational and storage positions.



The apparent typos at 5.4.7.1 are the result of changes to that section. The link shows it better.

My observation is that it does not exclude a direct vent furnace. At least not on the basis of CO danger.

I am aware that they are no longer available, and are probably not legal to install, but I fail to see why. Neither document examined has provided any answers.

It has been my assumption that this was more a political decision then anything technical, and I see no reason to update that assumption.

[John A]

If you are still looking for a replacement for that old gasket, fuel-oil furnaces use a very similar but probably nonasbestos gasket material around their burner units, and these gaskets are available. It should be more widely available for generic purposes too.

[Carol H]

David, as I said its been my understanding when this topic has come up time and time again that the BIG issue in regards to the safe use of them is due to the inadequate/antiquated venting.

Looks like section
5.4.6.5 Section 3 - may be the issue.
"It incorporates a safety control system that prevents burner operation under any operating conditions that allow products of combustion to discharge into the interior of the recreational vehicle."

As I said previously its my belief that not having a fan to force discharge to the exterior is the issue. Also seem to recall some photos of some RV gravity furnaces and if I am not mistaken some makes may have had only one vent -not two or if they had two vents they were pretty small and contained inside one larger tube - all using the same small discharge hole on the outside - a Wagonmaster maybe???

Bottom line is running one in a small enclosed space without having lots of good ventilation (windows open) isn't any safer than running the propane stove without windows open. Having to keep windows open while running an appliance to warm the trailer up just seems to me to be rather counter productive. :-)

[RogerDat]

I think it boils down to making an informed decision. And being aware of what "automatic" safety features are now on you.

Gravity heaters offer silent operation and require no battery power, and because most will lack a low oxygen sensor will work at higher elevations.

They will also be old and should be inspected and serviced before use, but that applies to most any furnace more than a few years old or with an unknown maintenance history.

You should have a CO2 alarm and smoke detector with any gas burning furnace but that need is even more critical if using a many decade old furnace lacking built in cut offs.

You give up some improvements in furnace design, including some safety features. Furnace won't shut off if the firebox leaks and starts drawing inside air for combustion, a window or vent open a crack would probably be a good idea. Lacking a fan to drive exhaust gases out it may be more susceptible to a leak in the vent pipes putting CO into the camper, especially if there is back draft from wind or power vent. Why you would intentionally have vent on and furnace on is beyond me, but maybe vent has a thermostat and heat from furnace triggers it?

Being illegal for new manufacture can have a lot of reasons, safety has advanced in many devices and some folks feel that allowing the manufacturer to use older "less" safe devices should not be allowed so codes and laws change to require the new devices. Sometimes this yields major safety improvement, and sometimes not so much. Who wants to purchase asbestos gaskets or lead painted children's toys? But I don't think stamping "warning misuse can cause injury or death" on a firearm improves safety much.

Tying the blade guard back on a circular saw which many do defeats the whole law about having to have a guard on all new saws. You could also tie back the airflow detector in a new furnace if fan quit and you wanted heat but since it's dependent on that fan you could be less safe than a gravity furnace because newer depends on devices for safety, not knowledge. Since I own saws without guards, I'm pretty careful about the saw and blade condition and my use of it.

In the case of the OP the fact that the furnace is being disassembled and things like gaskets replaced, with an attempt at getting a proper gasket material are important indicators that furnace is being checked out and will be properly assessed for safe operation.If you ain't that type of person don't use that type of furnace.

Or buy old cars without air bags, and if you do happen to have an unsafe Chevy Impala about 1967 vintage I'll take it off your hands for your own good.

[Bob Miller]

If the "Modern" gravity flow heaters are illegal for use in RV's, one would hardly think that any that are 20-40 years old would be any better.

[Mary F]

This discussion has run its course and is now closed. If anyone else can address the OP's original question (where to find gasket material), please do so by sending a PM (private message).