New Heater: Condensation problems

[Francesca Knowles]

Originally Posted by GeorgeR

Catalytic heaters will generate CO at low oxygen level. See the chart from this study http://www.cpsc.gov/library/foia/foia05/os/co03.pdf
George.

Yes.

I know.

I am supplying plenty of oxygen.

More, in fact, than I, the heater, and all of my relatives, friends, and hangers on need, even should they all cram themselves into my 14 ft. trailer and draw a single, mighty breath ALL AT THE SAME TIME.

There's enough oxygen in the trailer to sustain a Congressional Filibuster.

An "Elegant Sufficiency", as the man said.

Any advice about the water vapor?

[GeorgeR]

Francesca,
You made the point; I envision that conducting senate filibuster sessions in your trailer would greatly benefit our national interests; especially now; with an oxygen depletion hole hovering over Washington DC.
Regarding the pesky water vapor you could either eliminate combustion gases from your trailer or use a chemical dryer such as this Amazon.com: DampRid FG50T Hi-Capacity Moisture Absorber, 4-Pound Tub: Home Improvement.
Best of luck,
George.

[Francesca Knowles]

Thanks!

[Matt in SV]

Originally Posted by Joe Z

My conversion math stinks so does 6 watts divided by 12 volts equal .5 amps?..... If so that nice and vented to boot.
does anybody know the price on the 3P-12 or the 6P12?____ Can't find a price list anywhere
Joe

Yeah you have to email them or call. Then they send you some prices and swear you to Internet secrecy. Heck of a way to do business.

Regards,

Matt

[Donna D.]

Originally Posted by Francesca Knowles

I'm pretty sure I'm getting maximum efficiency from the Ecofan.

P.S.
I'll bet it's no coincidence that at least five people in this thread (including me) are Pacific Northwesterners. Who knows more about The Dreaded Damp than us Mossbacks???

Ya gotta be talking about the Pacifc NorthWET? Winter or cold weather camping can be a PITA in a one season molded fiberglass trailer. Unfortunately the cure is found in moving the air. No cooking pasta inside the trailer either! Breathing in and out is enough to cause condensation on the single pane windows, which isn't a real problem with windows that are glass and have a drip rim built in to the frame. It can be a HUGE problem (particularly in Scamps and Bolers) with one piece plexiglass windows front and back. The thought of condensation has never prevented me from camping in the cold/wet, but if I ever order a new Escape... it's gonna have double-pane windows!

[Francesca Knowles]

Originally Posted by Donna D.

Ya gotta be talking about the Pacifc NorthWET? Winter or cold weather camping can be a PITA in a one season molded fiberglass trailer. Unfortunately the cure is found in moving the air. No cooking pasta inside the trailer either! Breathing in and out is enough to cause condensation on the single pane windows, which isn't a real problem with windows that are glass and have a drip rim built in to the frame. It can be a HUGE problem (particularly in Scamps and Bolers) with one piece plexiglass windows front and back. The thought of condensation has never prevented me from camping in the cold/wet, but if I ever order a new Escape... it's gonna have double-pane windows!

Only ONE season "molded"??? I'm looking at FOUR seasons molded if I don't figure this out!
Portable Mushroom Farm, anyone?

[Roger C H]

I'm sorry, but even with your senate filibuster, if you are getting that much condensation, I think you just are not venting sufficiently.

Just on a thought, I checked out dehumidifiers at

http://www.simplydehumidifiers.com/D...specifications

This one is 525 Watts. Not enough to be a heater, actually about 1/3 the power of our little electric space heater which cost $19.95. Of course both these appliances require regular 120VAC wall power.

[Francesca Knowles]

Originally Posted by Roger C H

I'm sorry, but even with your senate filibuster, if you are getting that much condensation, I think you just are not venting sufficiently.

Just on a thought, I checked out dehumidifiers at

DEP400EW EdgeStar Portable Dehumidifier - 40 Pint Capacity

This one is 525 Watts. Not enough to be a heater, actually about 1/3 the power of our little electric space heater which cost $19.95. Of course both these appliances require regular 120VAC wall power.

Thanks, but I rarely camp where there's power, and when I do I use electric heat. Gotta get my money's worth! I'm a confirmed boondocker, and don't carry a generator, either. The only power draw in my rig is the lights, and if I'm out long enough to kill the battery I go to bed early.
I'm leaving in about two weeks for the Channeled Scablands of Eastern Washington, where the climate is pretty much either boiling hot or freezing cold. Bet you can guess which of those conditions I'll encounter in early March. Of course, it'll be tempered a bit by the howling gale that passes for a spring breeze over there, so I guess I'll have nothing to complain about.
This thread has really helped me to focus on my moisture problem, which I think I'm getting a handle on. We're at the end of a cold snap over here, and I took advantage of the 15 degree low the other night by spending a "test night" in the trailer just a few feet from my nice warm house.
I made some minor adjustments as to how and where the vents are located, but more importantly, I paid attention to where the wet was accumulating. It isn't so much on the windows,which is one of the things that has puzzled me. It's the WALLS that have been a problem, since anything that touches them (bedding, clothes etc.) gets wet.
And guess what? It turns out that I had it backwards.
The bedding isn't touching the wet wall. It's CAUSING the wet wall.
What I observed was that every place where cushions, clothing- anything with insulating properties- touch the walls, it cools them to the point that the airborne moisture condenses there.
I've made insulated spots with their vapor barriers on the wrong side. Why should I be surprised when they work exactly as "designed"? The real answer to my problem is to properly insulate the walls, which I won't have time to do before I leave. But you can bet that I'll be monitoring the soft good contacts in the trailer while I'm out.

Thanks for the help!
P.S.
It turns out that Congress breathes nothing but money, so I guess I'll have to come up with a better metaphor.....

[Roger C H]

I discovered this paper written by a University, so they shouldn't be trying to sell anything.

http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/vi...talytic+heater"

I also found something I had been looking for: one gallon of fuel burned yields just over one gallon of water. THAT could be part of your moisture problem.

[Andy B]

Originally Posted by Roger C H

I'm sorry, but even with your senate filibuster, if you are getting that much condensation, I think you just are not venting sufficiently.

I agree with Roger the only explanation is that you are not venting enough of the water vapor out of the trailer. I installed a wood stove in my house a few years ago and looked into the fans that can sit on a stove and work from the heat of the stove like the one you are using. There are a couple of different brands. I concluded that they were more of an expensive gimmick than a useful device so I did not get one. It is appealing to be able to blow air around without using electricity, but in practice it may not work as well as you hope it would, or as well as they advertise it does. I suspect that you are not getting the air change rate that you think you are, because if you were, there would not be a moisture problem.

You already isolated the hot and cold side of the fan, that should help efficiency. If you want to continue trying and make your heat fan work, you may need to isolate the intake and exhaust air as well to reduce the mixing of the wet exhaust and dryer intake air. Maybe mount the fan blades in a tube that extends outside. If you did that you might see how little air the fan is actually moving. With your heater running, you could try burning some incense or something else in the trailer with the windows closed to get it smoky and then open the window, like it is when you are camping, see how long it really takes to exchange the air.

[honda03842]

Our approach is to never run a heater of any kind when sleeping except an electric blanket. When there's no electricity we just add another blanket.

We never run a gas heater because we don't like the noise and frequently find condensation, particularly in the bathroom and on all the windows. In part it's the lack of insulation, in part it's a small space.

In our motorhome we have thermopane and the only place we get condensation is on the non-thermopane window.

Norm

[Andrew GPSMapNut]

Originally Posted by honda03842

Our approach is to never run a heater of any kind when sleeping except an electric blanket. When there's no electricity we just add another blanket.

>>>snip
Norm

(sorry, couldn't resist) It must be kind of nice, camping when the temperatures don't go down to -20C ... Kind of because, I wouldn't trade my outings when it really gets cold out and inside and it doesn't matter how many blankets you are under - you need some heat or you can't with any comfort...
In any case, sometimes, one simply needs a heater to be on at night. It may not be your case but for others it's a must.

[honda03842]

Originally Posted by Andrew GPSMapNut

(sorry, couldn't resist) It must be kind of nice, camping when the temperatures don't go down to -20C ... Kind of because, I wouldn't trade my outings when it really gets cold out and inside and it doesn't matter how many blankets you are under - you need some heat or you can't with any comfort...
In any case, sometimes, one simply needs a heater to be on at night. It may not be your case but for others it's a must.

The joys of retirement. I admit to avoiding cold weather. We've only camped in the 20's F. In our travels to Alaska and Labrador we typically leave for them in the spring, though I admit to wanting to spend a winter in the Yukon (but I have to get a divorce to do it).

If I found myself in -20C you can be sure I would be somewhere else but equally glad that you like it.

Stay warm

Norm

[honda03842]

Andrew,
Went to GPSNuts, great. I'll check them all.

Norm

[Roger C H]

We have revolutionized our heating. We recently purchased a Honeywell Electric Radiator Heater from Lowes. There are other brands, of course.

Admittedly it uses electricity, but it works so well. First, it is absolutely silent, except for barely audible clicks when the heaters turn on and off. Secondly it has no fan to create drafts and make noise. Thirdly, it stays warm. When the oil cools down the heaters heat it up again. We do have it closer to our kitchen than reccommended by the instructions, so I feel the surface when I wake at night and it is warm, but not hot to the touch.

We carry it in the car so it doesn't get banged around as much as in the trailer.

[Francesca Knowles]

Originally Posted by Roger C H

I discovered this paper written by a University, so they shouldn't be trying to sell anything.

http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/vi...talytic+heater"


I also found something I had been looking for: one gallon of fuel burned yields just over one gallon of water. THAT could be part of your moisture problem.

Hello again, All!

I've been away for ten days, camped offgrid in freezing temps; nice and toasty with my stone silent catalytic heater.
I used eight gallons of propane, not bad considering fridge, stove, and 16 hour heating days (including all nighttime hours. I only turned the heat off when I was outside for the day.) I never ran my single battery dry, either- no surprise since I'm free of the power drain, not to mention the annoying racket, of the 12v fan most propane heaters are stuck with.
Moisture problem much alleviated by rearranging of venting and doubling of Ecofan rate.
Now to my question re. the attached quote:
The link contained therein leads to a discussion of KEROSENE heaters.
In what way is that relevant to my questions about propane fired catalytic heat?

[Andy B]

Originally Posted by Francesca Knowles

Moisture problem much alleviated by rearranging of venting and doubling of Ecofan rate.

How did you double the ecofan rate, did you add a 2nd fan? What did you do to rearrange the venting?

Andy

[Francesca Knowles]

Originally Posted by Andy B

How did you double the ecofan rate, did you add a 2nd fan? What did you do to rearrange the venting?

Andy

Hello, Andy!

Per Ecofan:
I thought I had it at top speed, but discovered that the embarrassingly simple expedient of covering the fan base and heater top with aluminum foil produced a dramatic increase in blade speed. I'd been reluctant to try this due to mfr.'s warnings about potential damage to the fan caused by high heat, but have concluded that temps at which such damage would occur are not achieved by my heater, unlike the typical steel woodstove for which the fan was originally designed. I have nevertheless taken the precaution of hinging the fan at the base so that in the unlikely event of overheating, the thermostrip that tilts the fan forward for cooling can freely operate. I'm pretty satisfied with the performance, but I'm contemplating bringing along the Ecofan from our woodstove at home next trip to see how much benefit there might be in even more air circulation.
As for venting:
Perhaps like most catalytic users, my first concern has always been providing enough air for both the heater and the trailer's occupants. My simple duct system achieves that purpose by continuously supplying outside air warmed across the fan blades into the trailer. It does not serve as a vent, as the Ecofan is unidirectional. All byproducts of combustion (CO2, water; perhaps traces of CO, though my detector has never indicated their presence) must be vented by other routes. The trick is to keep the heat and get rid of the byproducts while keeping the water in suspension as long as possible. Heat being drawn to cold, I reasoned that if I made the cold harder to find, warm (vapor laden) air would circulate longer and better warm the interior walls before leaving the trailer. Water vapor won't condense on warm walls, and it's water on the walls that's been my problem. I don't care about the easily managed condensation on the windows.
Since long experience now satisfies me that my air intake system is adequate, the first (obvious?) step I've taken is to stop using the roof vent in cold weather. Duh. Up and out is not where I want my heat to go. Then I cracked ever so slightly the three (jalousie) windows on the trailer sides. Now I've created some tiny currents. But who wants to sit in even a tiny cold current in freezing weather? Not me! Plus, how do I make the cold harder for the heat to find? I pulled down the roller shades over the two windows at the dinette end, and propped them out a bit at the lower corners of the windows, so as to avoid the chill and postpone the escape of my warm air. If I'm cooking, I open the kitchen window more, and the door window a crack. I also devised an aluminum foil "hood" for my 2 1/2 quart-must-perk-for-ten-wet-minutes coffee pot that sends ALL its vapor out the window.
And guess what? Not only did the walls stay dry, the windows stayed mostly clear, I stayed warm, and I did it all on the low heat setting.
Quietly!
Next improvement: clear vinyl panel in the roller shades to get my view back...

The Now Warm, DRY, and Happy Camper:
Francesca

P.S.
I looked at the so-called "fully vented" Platinum Cat catalytic heater mentioned earlier in this thread, and from what I can tell it's only supplying intake air so as to avoid oxygen depletion. The entire heating surface is apparently exposed to the trailer interior, which says to me that combustion byproducts remain in the trailer unless otherwise vented. Just like any other catalytic heater.