Portable Propane Heater

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by deryk

sorry brian just a typo, we can't all be perfect all the time

No apologies necessary. I'm never perfect; if you manage to be perfect just some of the time, you're doing better than I am!

But seriously, lots of people do confuse CO and CO2...

[David Tilston]

Speaking quietly, so as not to increase the acrimony, (troll).


What I found real interesting was the conditions that produced a 60% LEL. In the natural gas industry, 20% LEL is an alarm, 40% is a shutdown.

[santacruzer]

There was a tent heater on the market several years ago that intrigued me, and I was toying with the idea of adapting my first tent trailer, which had no heater at all, to utilize something like this. Made by Zodi, the same folks who make the portable shower. They had a few heater models. For some reason, or maybe a lot of reasons, they're all no longer available. There's still a link up on their web site, however:
Zodi.com tent heaters – The safest tent heater EVER! over 40 camping comfort products
I can appreciate several inefficiencies of having something like this OUTSIDE your tent or trailer, but it looked like a safe solution on one level. I'm still hoping to find one at a flea market or garage sale someday, but for another purpose other than the trailer.

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by santacruzer

And I don't totally trust CO detectors. Here's a link I uncovered when I was looking into placing a CO detector in a building, per our new California law requiring them. Apparently the science of good CO detection is still developing. The next to last paragraph spells it out, some are reliable, some ain't. Bottom line for me is...don't put all that much faith either the heaters, their safety devices, or the alarms designed to alert you.

Sound advise! Since you posted the above I went looking for an email I received from one of the larger RV websites on the topic of CO detectors in the last year or so. I must of deleted it but as I recall it indicated that many of the CO detectors found in RV's do not alarm until well over 50 ppm, leaving many with a very false sense of security. The advise they gave was to test your detector at least twice a year, replace it every 5 years. If you have a brand that you cant find a lot of consumer testing reports on replace it with one you can and pick the one that consistently makes the highly recommend lists.

[santacruzer]

The instructions on the CO detector in my Escape specify testing it before every trip, and after any period of storage. The problem is, all most of us can really test for is a dead battery! Who knows if it's calibrated correctly? Certainly no one in MY circle of friends! Consumer Reports did an article and some comparisons a while back, and made the point that having one IS better than not, choose carefully, locate properly (NOT near the stove or heater), and replace regularly. To my embarrassment, I must admit I have not checked the brand that was installed in my trailer!

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Francesca Knowles

Everyplace this subject comes up, the famed "2002 catalytic heater study" comes up, too- as if results from the testing of a single tiny model of a type predating low-oxygen shutoffs is of any value in a discussion of modern, safety-shutoff equipped catalytic heaters.

Yes, it is of value, because the misinformation that this reference was provided to combat is the idea that catalytic heaters magically produce no carbon monoxide (or significantly less than non-catalytic designs) in normal operation. Low-oxygen shutoffs - which do not even exist on most of the models of catalytic heater discussed in this thread - don't come into play until long after the heater has produced measurable CO.

Originally Posted by Francesca Knowles

Who among y'all has actually read that oft-referred to study?

I only skimmed it and read selected sections.

Originally Posted by Francesca Knowles

And, more importantly, the much bigger study of which this was just an offshoot, the concurrent examination of radiant propane heaters? (Link) That's by far the more important and relevant study in any discussion of portable propane heaters

This document is freely available from the CPSC; there is no need to go through .docstoc

The report specific to the catalytic heater is essentially an extract of the parts of the full study which are relevant to catalytic heaters. Since the subject for which I provided the reference was the behaviour of catalytic heaters, it was the more relevant document. I apologize if I confused anyone by this selection.

Originally Posted by Francesca Knowles

Properly designed, EQUIPPED, maintained, and operated propane heaters of both kinds, if approved for indoor use, are perfectly safe to use indoors...

I never claimed any of these heaters were unsafe, although nothing (even a outside-vented furnace) is perfectly safe. Remember, as Carol has reported, that safe indoor use of an unvented heater is never unattended. Also, conditions which do not trigger a oxygen-depletion shutdown still involve generation of carbon monoxide, as shown in both of the CPSC reports.

[Mike Magee]

Next we can talk about the dangers of generator combustion emissions... when the wind changes and blows exhaust fumes toward and into the trailer.

[EddyEd]

I bought the middle sized Mr. Heater "Buddy" right before winter and have used it numerous times in my 13' Cloud and it is wonderful. I bought the 20# hose and regulator for it as well and just put the tank outside the door and run the hose up under the door (I have a small gap from age, its a '72) and the heater goes just inside the door. Warms the camper up warm enough to take my jacket off when it is nearing the 0 mark outside. My propane heater that is built into the camper couldn't even get it close to that warm even when it was still 30 out so I am very happy with the "Buddy". Yes I get some condensation but I was getting condensation anyway so that is just something I have learned to live with when the temps drop below 40. I always keep a window cracked and the top vent open an inch or two and it still stays comfortable in the camper. Keep in mind my idea of comfortable mind you is I can take my jacket off and not be in pain from the cold. I also never run my "Buddy" at night when I sleep, I know lots of people do but it scares me and I save a lot of propane by turning it off when I am asleep. I use a very well made mummy bag and stay toasty warm all through the night. Just an fyi as well I was able to get about 5 or 6 days out of my 20# tank with temps fluctuating between 35 and 0 all week, not running it at night, and turning it down to low most of the time. I will be removing my original propane heater before the spring thaw in order to make more storage room and using nothing by the "Buddy" from now on.

[Francesca Knowles]

Sounds just about like my experience, Tyler!

I'll never go back to a "conventional heater", either.

Francesca

[jimmied]

Originally Posted by EddyEd

I bought the middle sized Mr. Heater "Buddy" right before winter and have used it numerous times in my 13' Cloud and it is wonderful. I bought the 20# hose and regulator for it as well and just put the tank outside the door and run the hose up under the door (I have a small gap from age, its a '72) and the heater goes just inside the door. Warms the camper up warm enough to take my jacket off when it is nearing the 0 mark outside. My propane heater that is built into the camper couldn't even get it close to that warm even when it was still 30 out so I am very happy with the "Buddy". Yes I get some condensation but I was getting condensation anyway so that is just something I have learned to live with when the temps drop below 40. I always keep a window cracked and the top vent open an inch or two and it still stays comfortable in the camper. Keep in mind my idea of comfortable mind you is I can take my jacket off and not be in pain from the cold. I also never run my "Buddy" at night when I sleep, I know lots of people do but it scares me and I save a lot of propane by turning it off when I am asleep. I use a very well made mummy bag and stay toasty warm all through the night. Just an fyi as well I was able to get about 5 or 6 days out of my 20# tank with temps fluctuating between 35 and 0 all week, not running it at night, and turning it down to low most of the time. I will be removing my original propane heater before the spring thaw in order to make more storage room and using nothing by the "Buddy" from now on.

I have a few propane hoses that I plan on using for the Buddy Heater. Is a regulator needed or is built into the heater.

[EddyEd]

You need to get a regulator/filter (is that the same thing?) according to the manufacturer it scrubs the oils/rust/dirt from the propane which you might get from the bigger tanks and keeps the inner workings of the "Buddy" from getting clogged up and ruined. The one I bought was like $8 from Menards on clearance.
I have read posts from other "Buddy" users thought that state they have never used the filter attachment and they have never had a problem. I like to be cautious though, nothing like ruining a good camping trip because the heater broke.

[RLP]

The Buddy's have a built in regulator. That's why you can use them with a standard 1 lb bottle or larger which are at high pressure. The built-in regulator reduces the pressure accordingly to fit the pressure requirements of the heater.

The filter is a separate screw-on device which attaches between the regulator and bottle or hose. I agree with EddyEd, an inexpensive add-on to make a "happy camper".

[jimmied]

Originally Posted by EddyEd

You need to get a regulator/filter (is that the same thing?) according to the manufacturer it scrubs the oils/rust/dirt from the propane which you might get from the bigger tanks and keeps the inner workings of the "Buddy" from getting clogged up and ruined. The one I bought was like $8 from Menards on clearance.
I have read posts from other "Buddy" users thought that state they have never used the filter attachment and they have never had a problem. I like to be cautious though, nothing like ruining a good camping trip because the heater broke.

Thanks for the reply. I just contacted the manufacturer and using a 20 lb. tank with a hose only requires the filter, which is also a regulator, so an additional regulator is not needed and should be changed once per year. This filter is necessary as using the heater without it could plug up the heater.

[Francesca Knowles]

A question for Buddy Heater users:

My hard-plumbed heater is one that can be used directly off the trailer's gas supply/regulator. Can the (regulator-equipped) Buddy be used that way or must one use a separate "unregulated" gas supply?

I ask because inside trailer pressure is already regulated, and it's my understanding that this can cause problems with gas equipment that already has its own regulator.

Thanks!

Francesca

[jimmied]

Originally Posted by Francesca Knowles

A question for Buddy Heater users:

My hard-plumbed heater is one that can be used directly off the trailer's gas supply/regulator. Can the (regulator-equipped) Buddy be used that way or must one use a separate "unregulated" gas supply?

I ask because inside trailer pressure is already regulated, and it's my understanding that this can cause problems with gas equipment that already has its own regulator.

Thanks!

Francesca

I would call customer service and ask that question. 1 800 251 0001....let us know what they say....Jim

[RLP]

Francesca - As far as I know, many if not all propane appliances need regulated pressure of 11 inches W.C. (water column). This equates to a very small pressure of approx 0.5 PSI. The 11 inches W.C. has a very small leeway - something like 10.5 to 11.5 W.C. Using two regulators in the same line will drop the pressure way to much and the device will not work, period.

I use the Portable Buddy which has a built in regulator so I run it off a standard 20lb bottle. I can only assume the other Buddy models have a built in regulator as well.

I have a similar situation as you in that my fridge and cook top are receiving regulated pressure from the main regulator near the tank. To use the Buddy from the same tank I installed a T fitting on the gas inlet side of the regulator. This gave me an additional outlet (high pressure) to which I attached a small brass shut off valve (ball valve) and a long propane hose that goes to the heater. I also use a propane BBQ outside the trailer, again with built in regulator, and simply move the long propane hose from heater to BBQ as needed. Works like a charm.

When I pack up to hit the road again, I close the brass shut off valve at the main regulator, disconnect the long hose and stow it away.

[Francesca Knowles]

Thanks, Rick-

I have a similar setup on my tank for use with my outdoor appliances. Works great!

But my hard-plumbed inside heater runs off the trailer-regulated supply.It was brand new when I installed it, but that's been over five years now and the maker's long out of business so no replacement parts are available. I don't expect the blanket to last forever...

I'm always considering what I'll do next when it finally bites the dust so am interested in what others use. This is the first I'd heard that the Buddy's regulator is internal and evidently can't be removed for the kind of installation I have.

Food for thought!

Francesca

[jimmied]

Originally Posted by Francesca Knowles

Thanks, Rick-

I have a similar setup on my tank for use with my outdoor appliances. Works great!

But my hard-plumbed inside heater runs off the trailer-regulated supply.It was brand new when I installed it, but that's been over five years now and the maker's long out of business so no replacement parts are available. I don't expect the blanket to last forever...

I'm always considering what I'll do next when it finally bites the dust so am interested in what others use. This is the first I'd heard that the Buddy's regulator is internal and evidently can't be removed for the kind of installation I have.

Food for thought!

Francesca

When I called customer service, today, they said the filter is a regulator as well, built into one, so an additional regulator was not needed when hooking up to a 20 lb. tank.... but you definitely need the filter to avoid contaminating the heater.

[RLP]

Looking at my Portable Buddy where the bottle or hose connects to, it connects directly to the built-in regulator - the grey aluminum thingy (tech term) which is very visible. I would not advise removing this just so you can supply pre-regulated gas pressure.

With the Portable Buddy I noticed that a tremendous amount of heat comes off the top of the unit so follow the clearances specified by the manufacturer and make sure nothing might accidentally fall on the heater during use.

[Brian B-P]

I suggest to those members running high-pressure propane hoses from bulk tanks (20 lb cylinders) into the trailer interior that they reconsider this practice. High-pressure propane sources are typically used in enclosed spaces only if they are a very small supply, such as the one-pound disposable cylinders. A leak in the hose, or one of the fittings, or at the regulator can dump all 20 pounds of propane into the trailer. This is why recreational vehicle appliances intended for indoor use and plumbed to a bulk supply run on low pressure, with the regulator placed outside.

Similarly, in a house with natural gas appliances, a single common regulator is placed outside, and only low-pressure gas is supplied through interior plumbing to appliances (such as the furnace, water heater, and stove... just like an RV).

I note that Mr. Heater does endorse the "hose under door" scheme. They also endorse the refilling of one-pound cylinders from an inverted bulk tank, dispensing liquid propane from the vapour valve in an uncontrolled filling operation. I wouldn't trust Mr. Heater's guidance on anything... but even they say not to run their heaters unattended, or to leave that hose running inside when the heater is not in use in the owners manual.

Originally Posted by jimmied

When I called customer service, today, they said the filter is a regulator as well, built into one, so an additional regulator was not needed when hooking up to a 20 lb. tank....

Perhaps Jim misunderstood, or the customer service person is incompetent, but as Rick explained, the regulator is built into these appliances, and no extra regulator is needed - or would be appropriate. The external filter (Mr. Heater model no. F273699) is just a filter; the fact that these can be purchased for $8, as well as the small size, confirm that there is no regulator in them.


I would suggest asking Mr. Heater Customer Service if their high-pressure appliances can run a low-pressure supply... but perhaps they are not a credible source of information.