Portable Propane Heater

[David Tilston]

Originally Posted by David B.

No need to worry about CO with the catalytic style heaters, as they convert the propane to heat and water vapor, but they do use oxygen in the process, thus that is why they want an air source (partially open window) when in use. We crack open a window near the heater and a roof vent to allow most of the moisture (water vapor) out.

I used to believe that as well, but it turns out that even catalytic heaters produce CO when the O2 gets low. I wonder if this also applies at altitude?

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by David Tilston

I used to believe that as well, but it turns out that even catalytic heaters produce CO when the O2 gets low. I wonder if this also applies at altitude?

Good question David and I was wondering the same. My understanding is that the reason the Mr. Buddy heater doesnt work above 7500' is that it has a built in low oxygen sensor shut off. Which one can only assume is a safety feature. Wonder why the others such as Coleman Blackcat dont have the same? Whats the difference in modes of operation between the types?

[santacruzer]

I'm not a chemist by any stretch, but combustion occurs in the presence of oxygen. When oxygen is ample, the process produces carbon dioxide. When it's less than ample, combustion continues, but produces carbon monoxide. There is less oxygen in the air at altitude, hence the higher likelihood of producing carbon monoxide.

Because they're flameless, catalytic heaters do do produce as much CO as other heaters, but there is some. It is possible, especially if the heating element has been damaged or heated unevenly, that the heater could produce a larger amount.

[RLP]

Originally Posted by jimmied

Has anyone tried to operate their buddy with a long propane hose through an open window and put a large propane tank outside their rig. Sure would save the cost of a 1 pound tank which can be expensive if used on a daily basis. There is a 10 foot hose which Mr. Buddy supplies, but may not be long enough, so would have to look elsewhere for a longer one. Comments, please, and also is condensation a problem, even with a window or two open.

I do just that in my 1972 13 ft Boler. The ill-fitting door has a finger width gap at the bottom. 20lb bottle sits outside with a 15 ft hose running in at the bottom of the door. I crack open the roof vent an inch or so when running the heater and I can feel a little breeze infiltrating at the bottom of the door so I know I am getting air exchange. I was a little paranoid at first about CO2 but still alive enough to type this message.

I camp at about 4800 ft and use the heater (Portable Buddy) when the outside temp will be around freezing or lower. Always get condensation on the windows. Bedding that touches the walls occasionally feel a little damp in the morning but I wouldn't say it's a problem. I use the heater on the low setting and the inside temp at counter level is about 15C.

I also installed the propane filter at the heater which the Mr. Heater company recommends. Found one on sale for about $8.

[Brian B-P]

Are we really going to have this "magical catalytic heater" discussion again?

While most of santacruzer's explanation is sound and helpful, I do not believe there is any basis for this commonly held belief:

Originally Posted by santacruzer

Because they're flameless, catalytic heaters do do produce as much CO as other heaters...

... which I assume was intended to say "Because they're flameless, catalytic heaters do not produce as much CO as other heaters..." My apologies if my assumption is incorrect.

As I posted in a discussion late last year:

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

The products of propane combustion in any appliance (catalytic or not) are ideally only carbon dioxide and water; however, the products of any real combustion process include some carbon monoxide and unburned propane - whether combustion is assisted by a catalyst or not. Any unvented appliance burning a hydrocarbon fuel (such as propane) is a toxic gas hazard and so requires adequate ventilation and must be attended, as the operating instructions will clearly state... those precautions are not just for oxygen depletion.

The Consumer Products Safety Commission studied this in instrumented tests, and showed that catalytic heaters are not substantially different from other heaters in their formation of carbon monoxide:

CO EMISSIONS FROM A PORTABLE PROPANE CATALYTIC HEATER

Edit note: Thanks to David for spotting the dead link and supplying the current location, provided after the quote.

[Glenn Baglo]

Brian,

You always have to spoil everything.

baglo

[David Tilston]

Ah yes nothing like some facts to ruin a party. Brian, I tried your link, but it did not find the article. I did a bit of digging and came up with this, from the same site.
http://www.cpsc.gov/PageFiles/112559/co03.pdf

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Glenn Baglo

Brian,

You always have to spoil everything.

baglo

My mission in life!

That, and getting through a discussion in FiberglassRV involving any technology without finding a blatantly false statement presented as fact... but I've given up on that one.

Now it's late, so turn off those unvented propane heaters and sleep well... and safely

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by David Tilston

Brian, I tried your link, but it did not find the article. I did a bit of digging and came up with this, from the same site.
http://www.cpsc.gov/PageFiles/112559/co03.pdf

Thanks, David. CPSC does say they reorganized their site, and my link was obsolete; yours is the intended document. I corrected the link in the original post.

[deryk]

Now people are free to do what ever they want, but from experience living on a boat unvented propane heaters do add moisture into the air which increase the chance of mold. Now if you really feel the need to to burn an unvented heater into you sleeping area at least leave a window close to your head open for some fresh air, and get a new co2 detector and leave it close to the heater... this way if it does go off there is a good chance you will be able towake up and fix the problem.

Now 1 winter on my 2nd boat I just didn't have the money for a diesel heater and picked up a kerosene heater. I had 1 window next to it always open, and when I slept had 1 above me open as well. A friend kept tellin me I was gonna die for sure even with windows open...brought his co2 detector over we had food and watched a movie and he was very suprised it didnt go off.

Just try to play it safe.

deryk

[santacruzer]

Brian B-P: Yes, thank you, I did intend to say "do NOT produce as much CO".

Bob

[Carol H]

Coleman's manuals on their small catalytic heaters actually states in big bold letters: "Never operate the heater while sleeping".

Also Carbon Monoxide detectors need to be replaced *every five years*.

[santacruzer]

"Never operate...while sleeping". Sound advice...widely ignored, I suppose on the assumption that an open window or an air source will obviate risk. I hope my comment that catalytic heaters produce less CO was not taken wrong. I was simply responding to an earlier comment that there was no need to worry about CO with catalytic heaters. Less does not translate to safe; you should worry.
Newer trailers have CO detectors, but you have to wonder how many older ones out there don't.

[Rod P]

Originally Posted by deryk

Now people are free to do what ever they want, but from experience living on a boat unvented propane heaters do add moisture into the air which increase the chance of mold. Now if you really feel the need to to burn an unvented heater into you sleeping area at least leave a window close to your head open for some fresh air, and get a new co2 detector and leave it close to the heater... this way if it does go off there is a good chance you will be able towake up and fix the problem.

Now 1 winter on my 2nd boat I just didn't have the money for a diesel heater and picked up a kerosene heater. I had 1 window next to it always open, and when I slept had 1 above me open as well. A friend kept tellin me I was gonna die for sure even with windows open...brought his co2 detector over we had food and watched a movie and he was very suprised it didnt go off.

Just try to play it safe.

deryk

Thanks for the information everyone. I found a national park to stay in West Yellowstone that has electric for a total of $22.00, less if my national park pass valid for a discount. I just talked to the host and all is OK for our visit in May.

I had not planned to use the catalytic heater at night if we stayed inside Yellowstone but rather use the furnace sparingly while sleeping.

Regarding living on a boat. We (2 adults and 3 kids) lived our our boat for the summer while our house was being built. It was great except when I stepped onto the dock one morning and it was covered in ice and fell into the ice cold river! Never did that again. I bought a dehumidifier and ran the drain line out the side of the boat. Worked great and actually helped heat the inside too. I miss those days. Thank heaven for RVing.

Regards.

[Francesca Knowles]

Everyplace this subject comes up, the famed "2002 catalytic heater study" comes up, too- as if results from the testing of a single tiny model of a type predating low-oxygen shutoffs is of any value in a discussion of modern, safety-shutoff equipped catalytic heaters.

What was it that Pope said about "A LITTLE learning" as a dangerous thing?
"Drink deeply- or NOT- of the pierian spring".

Who among y'all has actually read that oft-referred to study? And, more importantly, the much bigger study of which this was just an offshoot, the concurrent examination of radiant propane heaters? (Link) That's by far the more important and relevant study in any discussion of portable propane heaters, and yet- neither its conclusions, its recommendations, nor its final effect on heaters marketed today EVER comes up!

Properly designed, EQUIPPED, maintained, and operated propane heaters of both kinds, if approved for indoor use, are perfectly safe to use indoors, and an in-depth reading of both studies will inform any interested party why that's true.

Francesca
Long-time, still breathin', well-educated user.

[Carol H]

The basic problem seems to be that some folks assume that if a propane heater is stated to be for use indoors that there is no danger in using it indoors. The *current* manual for the MH9Bx Mr. Buddy Portable for example does say its ok to use indoors but it also reads in part:

warning:
If the recreational or commercial enclosure does not have a window or roof vent, DO NOT USE THIS HEATER INSIDE.

warning:
Combustion by-products produced when using this product contain carbon monoxide, a chemical known to the State of California to cause cancer and birth defects (or other reproductive harm).

warning:
Early signs of carbon monoxide poisoning resemble the flu, with headache, dizziness and/or nausea. If you have these signs, heater may not be working properly. Get fresh air at once! Have heater serviced.


As Francesca rightly pointed out education is the key.

[santacruzer]

And I'm a long-time, still breathin', well-educated user myself. When I do use one, and never in the trailer, it's in our hunting cabin with an appropriately opened window. It's a much larger space than the trailer, for one thing. These things can be approved for indoor use until HFO, but I'm still going to open a window, and not put much trust in an ODS, or a thermocoupler, or tip-over device that was most likely made overseas in the cheapest manner possible.

And I don't totally trust CO detectors. Here's a link I uncovered when I was looking into placing a CO detector in a building, per our new California law requiring them. Apparently the science of good CO detection is still developing. The next to last paragraph spells it out, some are reliable, some ain't. Bottom line for me is...don't put all that much faith either the heaters, their safety devices, or the alarms designed to alert you. Trust the dealer, but cut the cards.

Carbon Monoxide - Leading Cause of Poisoning Deaths | July 2011 Inspector eNews

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by deryk

Now 1 winter on my 2nd boat I just didn't have the money for a diesel heater and picked up a kerosene heater. I had 1 window next to it always open, and when I slept had 1 above me open as well. A friend kept tellin me I was gonna die for sure even with windows open...brought his co2 detector over we had food and watched a movie and he was very suprised it didnt go off.

I hope "co2" (meaning CO2) instead of "CO" was just a typo. As it seems must be stated in every one of these discussions, carbon monoxide (CO) is the toxic stuff to be detected, and carbon dioxide (CO2) is the plentiful gas which is a normal product of good combustion of hydrocarbon fuels.

[deryk]

sorry brian just a typo, we can't all be perfect all the time

[jimmied]

Instead of putting in a propane heater, I decided to take my Honda 2000 gen set and put in a small cermanic heater. Would be cheaper for the time being.