Problems with headliner and adhesives

[Johnny M]

Originally Posted by john madill

I put Reflectix on my Compact Jr walls using heavy-duty Velcro with adhesive backing.

I simply adhered one side of the Velcro to the corners of pieces of Reflectix and on the corresponding spot on the walls.

With the thickness of the two pieces of Velcro there is a small gap for air between the wall and the Reflectix.

The difference of hot and cold when touching areas covered and not covered with the Reflectix is very noticeable.

The velcro would certainly allow the air gap that k corbin was speaking about and eliminate the dulling of the shinny foil but I still don't think reflectix is the best choice for me but I appreciate the reply.

[Johnny M]

Originally Posted by Darwin Maring

About commershal only adhesive only. Find out the name and look for it on the Internet. I have found that many can be found and ordered.

Darwin I will try that, the problem is some of the stuff is cost prohibitive to ship with hazmat fees or can not be shipped at all via UPS

[Johnny M]

Originally Posted by RRJR

I hope your going to paint the styrofoam if you go that way.
Styrofoam is very dangerous if it exposed to flame, a poisonous gas.

Ron if we go the painting route I would pull down all the styrofoam first. We don't have any open flames in our Boler, the only source is our water heater which is on the trailer's tongue. Removing the foam and painting is really a last resort, I would rather find the right glue to keep the headliner up without eating the foam....

[Johnny M]

Anyone used 3M™ Fast Tack Water Based Adhesive 1000NF?

[Keaner]

Originally Posted by Mollie

Well I've been searching for 3M 90 in and around Vancouver Bc Canada and we don't sell it? Home Depot only has up to 3M 77. Not sure if I can drive over border and bring it back into Canada either?

I got mine from Acklands Grainger.

[k corbin]

Originally Posted by Johnny M

K Corbin your post is exactly why I choose not use reflectix and yes I have been on their website but I have been told by many to use it. Good to know info about the glue dulling it. K Corbin what do you suggest we do try a different adhesive and stay with the styrofoam? We considered removing it but worry we will have same problem with the headliner directly on the fiberglass as we did on the inside of the door. We are considering pulling it down and just painting the inside but worry the 5000 BTU AC won't be effective. Borrego Dave thanks for your I put too don't remember the exact temperatures as the test were last summer but they seemed significant enough to justify the styrofoam not to mention the styrofoam was significantly more cost effective not including our wasted material. There has got to be something out there like Nasa space stuff lol that would work for these eggs with good R values and stay put.

Super 77 spray adhesive is intended to be re-positionable for up to 2 days. So that is not going to work for an overhead ceiling application where you are applying a material to a surface that is already overhead. Under those conditions you need to use a glue that is not rated as re-positionable for any substantial length of time. For instance Weld Bond brush on VOC based contact cement, you might get one extra try but it will only happen within a few minutes time frame window to make a re-position possible.

Styrofoam is that type of solid ridged stuff they make those white disposable coolers from that drive you crazy with the squeaking. They also use it for float docks and sometimes for packaging. They used to use it for insulation in walls on RVs and houses but there are much better products being sold for that purpose now.

So that leaves the question of exactly what kind of foam board insulation product did you buy? Without actually knowing what foam board product you used it is hard to state what adhesive might work on the surface. If you bought the polyisocyanurate board that has a thin layer of plastic sheeting on the surface then that thin plastic layer could be much of your problem in trying to get an adhesive to stick fabric to your foam board. There is not going to be any adhesive I can think of that will stay well stuck to it so of course your headliner will fall down. That thin film is helping to act as a moisture barrier but if you have the foam stuck to the ceiling already and that is the kind of insulation board you purchased I guess you could peel of that layer and try using a spray foam.

For what it is worth I myself have come to the conclusion that for overhead insulation using a closed cell foam product is going to be about as good as it gets for insulation values in a fiberglass trailer where you are not going to have a professionally sprayed in place foam layer. The Ensolite product that people in this forum talk about that gets used in some makes of trailers is a dense closed cell foam. You can use spray glues on that product. There will be a list of suitable spray glues for it on the sites that sell that type of foam.

The denser closed cell foams will give the best R value but of course the denser it is the more it weighs and it cost more too. Landau padding foam is also a closed cell foam that will insulate, it has lower R value than a dense foam such as Ensolite but it does insulate and it too helps with noise reduction and does not cost as much.

Darn it I have a low ceiling and a tight budget too. I want thin but dense closed cell foam. Fortunately one of the marine businesses in this building just put a bunch of relatively dense orange colored, closed cell foam sheet, leftovers in the dumpster and I spotted it before the trucks came It is new material, the color does not matter since it will be hidden! Maybe they have more leftovers? Maybe they have a job coming up soon that will require it and might save the extra pieces for me? They can see my Campster renovation happening from their big windows upstairs and it is so adorably cute and tiny that perhaps I can get them to consider helping to keep it warm by feeding it their leftovers? If I was still adorably cute and tiny that would be even more of a help in going begging for materials.

[Darral T.]

I'll throw my .02$ in on contact cement. I DO know what ever Scamp uses is VERY VERY strong and hard to rip apart. On the other hand, I did need to get under one of their "marine upholstery" seams. I went back on the seam cover with the 3M 90- NOTHING less! It has held for several years with not a sign of retreating in hot/humid Tennessee weather! The "77" is almost like it's removable! I wouldnt use it for ANY type of headliner.

Another example- I had a new headliner installed in my '99 Nissan truck a few years ago. I didnt have the sunvisors done- not for $50. I bought the material myself and wanted the "challenge" to see how I could cover them. I did as they had an internal "board" in which to place the "headliner" material. In my case, this is "foam" backed. Keep in mind, my sunvisors were originally "sown". Not now...it's strictly 3M 90 and they're holding fine.

Interesting stuff on the "reflectix" I've always questioned Scamp's listed R15! BUT, I do have a question, the glue is only attached to the outside. You STILL have the "bubbles" in which the air (the insulator) is still there. As far as the "reflection" being gone, how in the world can that affect it's insulating ability if it's not used in the sunlight? (Like sunvisors at windshields) Just curious.

[Johnny M]

Originally Posted by Darral T.

I'll throw my .02$ in on contact cement. I DO know what ever Scamp uses is VERY VERY strong and hard to rip apart. On the other hand, I did need to get under one of their "marine upholstery" seams. I went back on the seam cover with the 3M 90- NOTHING less! It has held for several years with not a sign of retreating in hot/humid Tennessee weather! The "77" is almost like it's removable! I wouldnt use it for ANY type of headliner.

Another example- I had a new headliner installed in my '99 Nissan truck a few years ago. I didnt have the sunvisors done- not for $50. I bought the material myself and wanted the "challenge" to see how I could cover them. I did as they had an internal "board" in which to place the "headliner" material. In my case, this is "foam" backed. Keep in mind, my sunvisors were originally "sown". Not now...it's strictly 3M 90 and they're holding fine.

Interesting stuff on the "reflectix" I've always questioned Scamp's listed R15! BUT, I do have a question, the glue is only attached to the outside. You STILL have the "bubbles" in which the air (the insulator) is still there. As far as the "reflection" being gone, how in the world can that affect it's insulating ability if it's not used in the sunlight? (Like sunvisors at windshields) Just curious.

Just got of the phone with Cellofoam in Conyers GA who makes the Poly Shield 3/4" 4x8 sheet we bought from Lowe's. I explained what I was doing and the problems I encountered and they told me I need to use a water based adhesive, the foil should be faced out towards the shell/fiberglass and that their product would offer better insulation and r-value than the reflectix even without an air space at (R3 as opposed to an R1). They also said that the glue "dulling" the foil would not substantially affect the r value as it is for reflecting radiant heat rather than direct sunlight as that is how it is used in normal residential construction practices. They also said the styrofoam will degrade at temperatures above 180 degrees (F) and long term exposure should not be above 167 degress. So I am putting a thermometer in the Boler today at ceiling level to see what the inside temperature gets to with it closed up as it will be in the 90's here this week and I will report back with my findings. The also said to contact Demand Products in Atlanta for adhesives compatible for their products or Woolley & Co. in Norcross GA for alternatives for insulation.

[Jon in AZ]

I agree with KC that closed cell foam is the best option for insulation. Because the products available now lack the vinyl skin of the original Ensolite, you'll probably want to add a finish layer, probably some kind of headliner. Carpet-like marine headliner creates additional dead air space, which adds insulating value.

That said, closed cell foam is more expensive (unless you get it for free) and harder to work with on compound curves (KC, your Trails West is boxier than Bolers and similar). While I consider Scamp's R15 claim pure bunkum, and I have read the manufacturer's product information, foil bubble wrap is inexpensive, readily available, and easier to work with. I have been very satisfied with its performance in actual use (or misuse... ) and it feels nice to the touch. For myself, I'd use it again, whatever the engineers say.

As to styrofoam and flammability, I would caution that many RV fires are electrical, so leaving out LP does not eliminate the issue.

[Johnny M]

Originally Posted by Jon in AZ

As to styrofoam and flammability, I would caution that many RV fires are electrical, so leaving out LP does not eliminate the issue.

Jon you are right and I am probably overthinking the reflectix vs polystyrene insulation, but the insulation is up there good with lock tite 300 and not coming down so I will probably stay with it. My problem really is with getting a glue that will hold up the vinyl headliner and won't fail in the heat. I was told by one company that the plastizers in the vinyl headliner itself gases off in excessive temperatures and is causing the glue to fail and that I need to find a glue that is resistant to the plastizers in the vinyl and that won't eat up the styro .

As far as to flammability I agree, and reflectix may be the better choice but the synthetic closed cell rubber similar to ensolite is not the best fire safe choice either (petrochemical based comes to mind). As a retired firefighter though, my experience tells me the best thing is the use of a smoke detector with regular battery changes and an ABC class fire extinguisher on board as many items in a camper trailer are combustible not just construction components...As to the electrical, regular inspection of components and proper rated fuses for the gauge wire/circuit and not overloading is important as well, however it is difficult to inspect hidden wires/connection on a travel trailer subject to constant vibrations from the road but that is a topic in of itself but worthy of some thought in any project involving fiberglass rv's

[DuaneQ]

Originally Posted by Johnny M

We put our vinyl headliner up a few weeks ago and it is already falling down. There was much debate on our choice of wall and ceiling coverings and glues along with alot of research here and elsewhere. We choose 1" thick styrofoam (polypropylene) for its great insulation R value as opposed to reflectix. That presented a problem of finding the right glue that would not eat up the styrofoam and we went with lock tite 300 for high heat applications and it said on the can it would work on polypropylene (styrofoam). And it does, but the cloth baçked vinyl headliner we applied to the styrofoam with the same glue has started coming down from the summer heat after only a few weeks. Scamp told me the glue they use for their rat fur but it is only commercially available. When we looked at similar rat fur it seemed like it was heavier in weight than the vinyl by feel. Also to complicate things further the headliner has shrunk where we applied it to the fiberglass interior of the door which we used Dap contact cement in a gallon container and the heat has brought it down also. We followed the instructions on both products to the T. We considered 3M supper 77, 90 and the 38808 auto headliner adhesives but they will all attack the foam. Wanted to see if any one else has used styrofoam polypropylene insulation and vinyl headliner and if you were successful and if so what glue you used.

I have thought of using 1/2" styrofoam on the ceiling of my Burro but haven't made a decision as to how to go about covering it. I have had at least two cars where the headliner was starting to sit on top of my head. I did find this video and thought I'd share it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnOegaOKu38

[k corbin]

I am so glad that you took the time to call the company and talk to them about the specific insulation product you are using. That was a very wise decision.

It sounds like this product has an actual metal foil on the surface versus the shiny mylar plastic used on Reflectix. I like that!!! But even with a true metal the radiant barrier does need to have an air gap next to it on the side that is towards the heat to achieve the maximum stated R Values. But as they said there is some benefit to it despite the lack of air gap.

For those of you who have Reflectix it is important to note that there is a difference between being a radiant barrier and a reflective barrier. Metal is a radiant barrier and if polished can additionally be a reflective barrier. It performs best when it is shiny since you get both benefits. Reflectix is a reflective barrier and it has no significant radiant barrier capabilities. So if you dull the surface of the mylar plastic with glue it loses the ability to reflect heat. Foam is more effective in R Value than the dead air space of a double bubble layer.

The true metal facing on the foam board will help deaden sound too. Reflectix does not have sound deadening properties. Closed cell foam does have sound reducing properties. Sound deadening is nice to have in small trailers as rain can just about drive you nuts going on for hours if it is coming down hard and you are a very light sleeper. Plus helping with those neighbors with generators that are running for hours on end. So when choosing an insulation you get extra value if your choice does help reduce the sounds.

Vinyl coated headliner/seat topper is available from various sources, it is used on boats. It is a 3/16" thick closed cell foam coated with a layer of colored vinyl. Here is one supplier for it. Foam Back Marine Vinyl by the Running Yard 54 Inches Wide That material is one of my lucky leftover finds I got and I have enough of it for my Campster ceiling. In the flat areas I will first adhere the thicker layer of closed cell foam (that was also a free leftovers find), then I will top it with the vinyl coated foam layer for the finished surface of the ceiling. I don't need to put the thicker foam over the molded in stiffener beams in the Campster ceiling as they already have foam inside of them. The foam created the shape and fiberglass cloth and resin over the foam provides the strength. That is a structural method of stiffening areas that is also found in fiberglass boats.

If fire rated non toxic fumes materials is a big concern to you that issue can be solved by purchasing insulating and upholstery materials from the aircraft interiors industry. The FAA requires certain standards of non toxic fumes in case of fires. If you want to find some just use the keywords "FAA approved" tagged onto the kind of product you are looking for.

One of my personal tricks is to apply the aluminum tape materials to the backside of wall panels or to the opposite face of foam insulation board that has no reflective surface. There are many places where you can have hot days and cold nights so you are trying to keep heat in as well as keep it out at different times of the day. But I will post more about that in my personal modification thread when I reach the part of my project where I begin installing insulation on the upright walls.

[Raz]

I would suggest that being so thin, none of these insulating products are going to do much more than stop condensation. I would use the one that's cheapest and easest to apply. I don't know about bead board but when I investigated insulating my basement I found the code required blue board be covered. And then there is the windows.... Raz

[starbrightsteve]

Johnny M, the foam that I used as an adhesive was Todol PUR Stick construction adhesive. I bought all my air sealing materials from a company called Energy Federation, incorporated. I bought by the pallet. The gun that the can of adhesive screwed onto also came from EFI. The foam cost about $20 and the gun about $35 but it's been 3 years since I last ordered from them. I have seen similar foam adhesives and guns in some building supply stores. I doubt Lowes has them but Home Depot might. I am pretty sure EFI sells retail.

[Mollie]

Found this and it worked great at NAPA auto parts for headliner...