Re-installing side windows in a Scamp? - Fiberglass RV


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Old 04-23-2015, 12:24 PM   #1
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Re-installing side windows in a Scamp?

I need to remove, re-seal and re-install the two side windows in my 1978 Scamp 13.

Has anyone re-installed the side windows using some method other than replacing the rivets?

It appears that on the inside of the window openings there is room for a wood frame around the window. Would it be an improvement to install the windows using screws into a wood frame, or bolts/nuts through the wood?

It sure would be much easier for a future owner to reseal the windows.

One of my windows is leaking because a PO failed to properly install some of the MANY rivets!

Bill
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Old 04-23-2015, 01:02 PM   #2
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I like rivets... but then I'm weird. Or maybe I just like aluminum frame to aluminum rivet going through FG. Won't corrode so you would notice it in decades. Nothing to strip out. Nothing to rot. Easy for a single person to install unlike machine screw and nut.

Worse case scenario I have to add a washer to the inside if FG is getting ragged, or use larger rivet. Can always glass over inside and "do over" with relatively little hassle.

We now return you to the folks that like screws, bolts and nuts.
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Old 04-23-2015, 04:06 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerDat View Post
I like rivets... but then I'm weird. Or maybe I just like aluminum frame to aluminum rivet going through FG. Won't corrode so you would notice it in decades. Nothing to strip out. Nothing to rot. Easy for a single person to install unlike machine screw and nut.

Worse case scenario I have to add a washer to the inside if FG is getting ragged, or use larger rivet. Can always glass over inside and "do over" with relatively little hassle.

We now return you to the folks that like screws, bolts and nuts.
Well, RogerDat, I don't believe your weird. Nor would I question a man of your experience about his preference of using rivets over screws, etc.

However, I can say that my riveting experance has not always been a pleasing one!

My first mistake was buying the cheapest rivet tool I could find. Of course, the pot metal jaws of this tool didn't-couldn't-wouldn't grip the rivet shaft with enought pressure to set the rivets! As you might know, half set rivets can be a pain removing.

Later, with a better tool, I found the joy of some rivets just not acting like nice little rivets should...bonding two different materials tightly together. Which I will admit was most likely caused by improper sized rivets being used.

It could be that a person has to have a tab bit of smarts to install rivets properly. Something that I'm sorely lacking!

Bill
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Old 04-23-2015, 05:37 PM   #4
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Some folks really like stainless screws & nuts.

I have been told that wisdom comes from experience, experience comes from screwing up. I would translate that to mean I have screwed up enough I'm half way to the Wisdom of Solomon.

I had a cheap rivet tool jam with the shaft still unbroken but the rivet too tight to pull out, too loose to snap. Tool hanging on side of camper by rivet shaft. Even after I got the shaft cut I had the fun of the loose rivet removal you mentioned.

After that I swore off of cheap rivet tools. Considering how many times I have sworn off cheap tools of one type or another I should have a garage full of snap-on. I don't. Not even close. Too "bargain minded" I guess.

Carol H. turned me on to tapping the shaft out and trimming the sleeve down with a fine toothed hacksaw if the rivet needs a shorter grip range. Just slip the shaft back in after the tube is trimmed.
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Old 04-23-2015, 11:07 PM   #5
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Since I retired 10 years ago I've refurbished and sold at least 9 eggs of various manufacturer.


I sold a 13' Scamp a couple of months ago that I had replaced every rivet including the side windows and awning rail.
I had a real mess to clean up on the 13 because the awning rail had been bolted on and virtually every one leaked staining the elephant hide.
In my past experience the only time I've had to do fiberglass patching was where nuts and bolts were used.
Any fastener that's held a trailer together for 38 years has to be pretty good.
Good luck on your project.
John
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Old 04-24-2015, 08:46 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Perry J View Post
Since I retired 10 years ago I've refurbished and sold at least 9 eggs of various manufacturer.


I sold a 13' Scamp a couple of months ago that I had replaced every rivet including the side windows and awning rail.
I had a real mess to clean up on the 13 because the awning rail had been bolted on and virtually every one leaked staining the elephant hide.
In my past experience the only time I've had to do fiberglass patching was where nuts and bolts were used.
Any fastener that's held a trailer together for 38 years has to be pretty good.
Good luck on your project.
John
Thanks Perry J. for your comments!

One aspect, that bothers me, in using rivets in the installing of the windows, is the compressing of the butyl sealing tape when the rivets are applied and expand, thereby forcing the window frame against the fiberglass shell.

On my old Scamp, it is near impossible to see any of the compressed butyl tape between the window aluminum frame and the Scamp's fiberglass shell.

On all previous RV repairs that I have made on non-fiberglass RV's, the rule was to apply enough pressure (by metal screws or bolts) to compress the butyl tape, but not so much pressure to force the tape out of the joint. In effect the tape was forming a sealing gasket.

What am I missing here?

Bill
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Old 04-24-2015, 09:04 AM   #7
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Not missing anything. The trick is to have rivets of right length to compress but not squish all the butyl tape out. I don't think it takes much thickness of tape left to form the seal as long as there is some.

I also speculate that on my older scamp whatever butyl tape was exposed at the edges of the window/shell seam has long since dried up and fallen away. Leaving whatever was further back behind the window frame to do the sealing. Or not sealing as the case may be.
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Old 04-24-2015, 10:41 PM   #8
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Bill, Roger's correct.
The rivets will do the job.
I like to do the window replacement or awning rails on a warm day so the butyl tape is a little softer.


Roger, by your way of thinking I'm almost as wise as Solomon.


John
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Old 04-26-2015, 08:37 PM   #9
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Well, I'm afraid that being wise is something that always evaded me! And, now, I can't seem to deside whether to use rivets, or use screws in re-installing my windows!

RogerDat, did you have time this weekend to check the size of the rivets holding your windows in place? Or has anyone else ever measured the size rivets required.

I removed one of my rivets, and came up with a rivet measurement of 5/32" diameter and 3/8" long. However, I can't say that these measurements are 100% correct. Scamp doesn't carry that size. But, ACE Hardware should have them, or i can order them on-line.

For the past two days I've been bouncing mentally from using rivets, or using SS screws and wood backing frames. Today a friend offer to loan me his professional air driven rivet gun.

I've gone so far as to cut the wood for the frames for both windows, but haven't painted them, or purchased the screws.

Using the screws and wood framing will increase the work time termeidiously. But, Im more concerned in getting the best seal that I can!

It would be easy to remove the screws if the screws didn't work out, and then install the rivets. Only loss would be the cost of the screws. Which in time might be used elsewhere.

Did I read correctly that the Trillium trailer installed their side windows with screws and wood backings?

I'm still on the fence...but wanting to climb down soon. Knowing the correct rivet size (length) might help me decide which way to go.

Bill
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Old 04-26-2015, 11:32 PM   #10
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Bill I think I prefer rivets also but then I am weird too I guess like RogerDat...I got my Butyl tape, aluminum rivets, and rivet gun, buffing wheel & buffing compound yesterday from my local Ace Hardware as I prepare to restore them to like new...I just removed my Jalouise windows yesterday and today and found a broken part (philips hinge) I will be ordering from vintagetrailersupply.com provided they have one that will fit mine..and your right getting them out wasn't so easy having to drill out the old rivets, but I am glad I did as it seems they have been removed before as I found a small crack in the fiberglass also that I will be repairing...as I restore my 71 Boler I am finding numerous rivets over the fiberglass shell, some serving no purpose even around windows but not through the window frame itself (maybe had a different window before?), some for cabinets, etc. so I am fiberglassing over any holes that will not have a rivet replaced...

Anyway, I want to keep our Boler as much like original as possible but with mods to suit our needs and wants...I finally have the interior completely stripped down (that was a pain even using a dremel scraper blade and a angle grinder with flapper disk) so I will begin fiberglass repairs tomorrow weather permitting and then will reinstall the windows after the fiberglass work & some new exterior paint (white top side over red below)...

Now, I have never worked with a jalousie window before so this is new to me, but I have been reading post here, watching youtube videos on dismantling them and parts for them at vintagetrailersupply.com...the one thing I am lacking is a good diagram that identifies all the parts AND weather stripping AND seals for the entire window...on mine it looks like there are at least 4 different types of seals...the other issue I have is the screen on one of the two windows has the shaft for the crank knob going right through it! This doesn't look good or right, plus the screen frame was literally wrapped around the 4 sides of the interior window frame and screwed to it, this definitely didn't look right the other window had a different screen all together...anyone got any experience with this issue? I really want a nice clean looking install for both the windows and the screens...many thanks in advance

Oh, one last question, when replacing the butyl tape what is the correct way to meet the tape at the window corners? I am thinking overlapping the width of the tape but didn't know if that was to thick maybe making the middle area not seal properly???
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Old 04-27-2015, 01:52 PM   #11
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Sorry John, I don't know enough to provide you with the answers you seek.

You might want to start a new thread asking for help, as I'm not sure if anyone is reading this thread anymore. Hopefully, some of the experts will then help you.

Scamp Parts just told me that since they no longer install the old jalouise windows, they no longer carry the 5/32 inch rivets.So I'll be ordering a box of 250 rivets from McMaster- Carr today.

Bill
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Old 04-27-2015, 08:51 PM   #12
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Interesting... the differences between how jalousies and radius windows are mounted. I like rivets too. Serve a purpose. But stainless steel bolts with a plastic washer under the head (stops galling) perhaps would work well too.
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Old 04-28-2015, 10:59 AM   #13
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You can overlap the butyl tape and/or press the butyl tape ends together until they seal. Work it a bit to seal the seam where the ends join, works easily if it is at all warm. You can roll it into little balls or snakes between your fingers. You work it just like you would that modeling clay you played with as a kid. Or your kids or grandkids played with.

I think the rivets need to be pretty tight so there is no movement of the frame due to vibration. Although with the number of rivets on the frame I'm guessing the ability to move much is fairly limited.

Donna happy hearing from you! Have not crossed paths with you on the forum in awhile, I don't think since you picked up the Escape. Missed your insightful comments.

The older Scamp windows just have a flange that is riveted to the FG shell with butyl tape under the flange. Other makes or maybe later Scamps used different windows. Some had a ring on the inside, some have a rubber seal, some non scamp trailers have double walls so the windows have wood framing between the walls.

I have seen both the jalousies and the prop open windows in the old scamps. I think later models used windows that slide.
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Old 04-28-2015, 04:28 PM   #14
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Okay, i'm convenced...sorta...that rivets is the best way to re-install my jalouise wendows on my 1978 scamp!

I ordered 250 each of the 5/32" diameter rivets, with a .251"-.37t material thickness from McMaster-Carr Hardware. The PN is 99447A040, and a box of 250 cost $12.52. Shipping was $9.02!

I am hopeing that the grip range of .252 to .375 (1/4" to 3/8") will work OK. If not, then I may go to 3/8" rivets which are sold everywhere!

As RodgerDat stated above, there are a lot of rivets holding a jalouise window in a old Scamp. I counted 26 each!

Oh yes, I found another leak during the 1.5" rain we had yesterday...the rivets are loose that hold the "drip shield" over the door!

Bill
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